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New Gods: The Fifth World

D Terminator XXXIII

09:42 / 31.03.04

I always liked the - seemingly - throwaway bit in Morrison's/Porter's/etc. JLA run, that the next time the DC earth's heroes saw the Fourth World gods again, they would have evolved into the Fifth World gods [/paraphrase].

The original Kirby run easily contained some chunky, neat ideas - incomparable to the best FF run, really, but they were still Kirby - but somehow, as a vivcious concept and despite all the valiant attempts at reviving the various godsm the results were always variable and - of the series I've purchased in the past - underwhelming.

So, running with Morrison's throwaway bit, what would the Fifth World look like? Get creative, if ya like.

11:03 / 31.03.04

This is a dangerous question to ask...and not only because I co-mod a New Gods board.

But I think the mistakes nearly every 4th World writer make are:

1. Writing superhero stories, not mythology
2. Focusing on the Orion/Darkseid conflict, almost exclusively.
3. Not _changing_ anything (do you hear me, Mr. Byrne?)

The first thing I'd do is kill Darkseid off. Completely, utterly, and without any chance of resurrection. I get the feeling that Kirby had something similar in mind...nobody ever said that he was _necessary_ to the mythos. In fact, looking at classical myth, there's no such thing as a "god of evil"...even Loki was an ally of the Aesir until the end.

Then I'd take a really close look at the epics of the past, and start filing off serial numbers. The primary foci would be Campbell's "heroic quest" and the battles against the forces of disorder (aka the Jotun/Typhon/Set).

So my first pass would be something along the lines of a divine war, which started with the destruction of Apokalips (and it's ruler) by a draconic force beyond their control.

In retrospect, having Darkseid becoming forced to ally with Highfather for real (as opposed to alliances of convienence, where he plans on betrayal) would be an interesting twist...imagine him _so_ afraid that he begs for help.

Mix in some epic battles, personal heroism, romance, humor, wild science, wilder magic, and (after 12-24 issues) a triumphant ending, with various mortal allies becoming the first gods of the Fifth World (hopefully, in a better fashion than those silly New Guardians).

And then the Gods of the Fourth World would finally join the Source, never to return. Because, in my opinion, NOTHING beats a good ending.

13:11 / 31.03.04

...the mistakes nearly every 4th World writer make are:
1. Writing superhero stories, not mythology

To be fair, that was Kirby's mistake as well...

14:25 / 31.03.04

Not in his best works, like "Himon" or "The Pact". And very few of his New Gods stories are as simple as "Good guy finds out about bad guy's evil plan, and hits him until he goes away"

The latter-day writers of the Fourth World seem to care little about the impact their interminable Orion/Mister Miracle vs Darkseid battles have. Rather than focusing on the emotions of the people involved, they think that bombastic speeches, rampant Kirby Krackle, and a widescreen battle count as "an epic story!".

Look at The Glory Boat. Sure, it's "Hero vs. Monster", but the real story isn't about Orion at all. It's about a son trying to find approval in his father's eyes, while remaining true to his beliefs...and the tragedy that results.

It's a story about _people_. Some of them just happen to be gods.

15:10 / 31.03.04

Yeah, but that's the very thing that undercuts any mythic quality the story may have had.

Hey, remember that bit in the Kalevala where, before he can forge the Sampo, Ilmarinen has to travel to contemporary America, assume a secret identity, battle a criminal syndicate, and teach an old man the True Meaning of Christmas?

No?

It pains me to say it, really it does--but to me the Fourth World exemplifies Jack Kirby's limitations far more than his capabilities. There was no lack of imagination in the conception, but when it came to putting those concepts into play--to actually telling the story--Kirby was apparently unable (or unwilling) to craft a truly mythic/epic narrative, and so saddled his New Gods with shit-dull human supporting casts and crammed them into an all-too familiar framework of high-tech criminality, hard-nosed coppers, and cheap pathos.

Kirby's Fourth World was not a sleek greyhound hamstrung by the hackwork of others: it was a gimp from the cradle, and its father made it so.

16:05 / 31.03.04

I have to disagree...

While there are certainly elements of what you are talking about in the original run (mostly in the "O'Ryan's Mob" story), I didn't see any of them in his best stuff (again, "The Pact" and "Himon").

In fact, I wonder if the whole "Orion gets a secret ID" bit wasn't foisted upon him by editorial...he certainly got rid of it quickly enough.

When folks rave about the New Gods, it's about stories like "The Pact", not the Black Racer chasing down a racketeer.

How can you not love a story that starts out: "There came a time when the old gods died..."

17:34 / 31.03.04

There was no lack of imagination in the conception, but when it came to putting those concepts into play--to actually telling the story--Kirby was apparently unable (or unwilling) to craft a truly mythic/epic narrative

20 years from now, people may say the same about grant morrison. I don't see a "myth vs.superheroes vs. the complexity of the human spirit" argument in the New Gods; it's just that the guy had so much mad stuff flying through his head, he had to get it out ASAP. Every aspect other than concept suffered as a result, but never all at the same time. I dunno... it seems like each issue belongs in (what we'd today term) a different genre. Like it needs several 90's Marvel-sized crossover events to tell anything remotely resembling the epic it alludes to.

Agree about the shit-boring secondary characters, though. orion's human crew were a fantastic use of insanely useless expository dialogue. Although Kirby probably had entire series worth of material on each one percolating in his subconscious...

Anyone read the attempt to wrap the whole thing up, in 84? The Hunger Dogs, I believe. I'm curious. Would love to read it, just to see.

18:11 / 31.03.04

I haven't read Hunger Dogs (I don't think it's in print, but I could be wrong), but what I've read about it is that Kirby was promised a free creative hand he didn't quite get. The ending was to kill Darkseid and/or Orion (again, I'm not sure...this was all in The Comic Book Heroes, my copy of which vanished mysteriously some long while back), but DC balked since -- yes -- both were to appear as toys in the marketing of DC's...sigh...SuperPowers multimedia crossover event. So I believe Jack actually had to redraw several pages (and write new dialogue, obviously). It'd be cool indeed if his intended ending exists in any form.

Haus of Mystery

19:21 / 31.03.04

Hunger Dogs is dissappointing. I think the wind left his sails after DC shat on him by cancelling his entire fourth world series in one fell swoop. For a while the man was writing, drawing and editing Mister Miracle, New Gods, and the Forever People, which is an insane workload (listen up Bryan Hitch)and for the most part they're great. Wild and woolly storytelling at it's best, and I reckon that Rock Of Ages is Grant's personal thankyou to Kirby for all the effort. I mean the Black Racer fer fuck's sake! It don't get better than that.

Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo

07:04 / 01.04.04

The Hunger Dogs was a mess from the time it was started. Kirby was told he could finish the New Gods, and as he worked on it, DC was able to put together a deal for toys, a change to Super Friends and told Kirby he couldn't kill off any of the characters and had to bring back some of the ones he had killed.

Rather than re-draw the whole thing, he and Greg Theakson cut apart the story, re-arranged it and made something barely coherant out of what they could. It broke Kirby's heart, and it's why he didn't do any other comics narratives. There are rumors that when they do the final "New Gods" trade, they will reprint Hunger Dogs the way Kirby originally did it...but it's just a rumor.

As for how best to do the New Gods? Like any of Kirby's best works, it would be better if people took bits and peices of his work and put it in their own, rather than try to continue it. No one can equal the way each New Gods comic was bursting to the seam with new concepts and odd ideas. Kirby was very much just tossing things into the air to see what he could work with, and that's why I love those series so much.

Kirby's comics are VERY much a great comic for creative kids, since he tosses in all kinds of concepts that a kid can sit around an make up new stories with.

D Terminator XXXIII

11:49 / 01.04.04

Yes, but part of what makes them work less with other creators (there may be the odd creator/s who were able to bring something interesting to the table for a whole three seconds, but my mind is blank) is that the New Gods creations are so mockable.

Case in point:

Metron is a passive, information gatherer. With a cosmic chair. Big Barda is a man-woman. With a cosmic rod (cue subtext). Orion is a troubled warrior. With a cosmic walker. The Black Racer is a black death-type dude. On cosmic skiis.

I mean, really.

The fact that many creators have tried to make Darkseid the DC Universe equivalent of Doctor Doom is rather troublesome as well. I haven't exactly figured out just why Doom works (his insanity? the fact that he once was human? the fact that there is ripe tragedy to be found in his (made up) past? his brilliance? his cheesy raison d'etre?), but Darkseid doesn't for me. "Look! LOOK! Thassa celestial, humanoid rock! In a miniskirt."

-

One idea occurred to me, and I don't wish to be ungainly provocative, but since what the New Gods is basically about is the dichotomy between good and bad (with some originally interesting blurred lines (Miracleman is the son of the Highfather? Who was given over to the dark side? And whose spirit couldn't be broken? And Orion is an ugly dog? Who is Darkseid's son? Who was raised in New Genesis? Who still couldn't effectively shake off his 'destiny'?), why not blur everything for the next incarnation? Think Israel/Palestine.

And another thought occurred - why not base some of your favourite subversive authors and thinkers into the new New Gods? Baudrillard as the new Metron, how would he be? Chomsky as the new Highfather? Morrison as the new Darkseid?

...

15:41 / 01.04.04

That's friggin' brilliant. The Chomfather as the voice of curmudgeonly personal responsibility vs. Morriseid, who just wants you to take a bunch of drugs and have a great time, man. Got a real Biblical overtone to it. Of course, both are opposing the force of "control", which would be revealed as a sham in the face of our collective connection to the Source. Dude, who would you cast as the Uni-Friend?

D Terminator XXXIII

09:04 / 02.04.04

Please get real.

I am throwing stuff up, because I like to.

And Morriseid was an extension of a fifteen year old remark, where he stated that if he had super powers, he'd be a villain and take over the world. A just ruler too, only if he was given a daily ration of chocolate. Besides, some of you guys drew a parallel upon Doctor Doom and Morrison in Fantastic1234, I seem to recall. Morrison lends himself to the chaotic, eeevil (but not absolutely) dark side (idiotic pun intended).

Not clearly deliniated sympathies is potentially interesting, do you see?

Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo

21:44 / 03.04.04

Darkseid is more than just a standard villian under Kirby because, unlike his Marvel villians, Darkseid is evil, knows he is evil and doesn't feel angst about it. He should be written as a character who is planning LONG term (not just for a 12 issue arc, but a 100 year plan that will cluminate long after the antagonist is gone). Kirby pured everything he hated about humanity into him, and set him up to be the comics version of Satan.

That's why he was not just trying to kill Orion or anything small...he was after the Anti-Life equasion, and no matter what Jim Starlin said, is a concept that was kind of unknown in comics. It didn't kill people, but ended their resistance.

So, Kirby believes that life is resistance.

And No one since has tapped into that because it is a concept that doesn't lend itself to two guys in tights beating on each other.

Of course, many of the characters were Kirby's attempt to try and "reclaim" the ones he had given to Marvel. Black Racer is a slightly different version of the Silver Surfer, Orion is Thor, and so on.