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Chaos Magick and the Soul

05:30 / 31.03.04

What is the general consensus amongst Chaotes regarding the survival of Self past the point of brain-death?

And does that opinion change with whichever paradigm you're currently using, or is it a 99.9% fixed aspect of Chaos Magick?

(If you were to bump into Carroll in a mocktail bar and ask him if he believed in life after death, what do you think he'd say?)

trouser the trouserian

06:13 / 31.03.04

Knowing Pete he'd probably say I can neither confirm nor deny that such is the case.

08:21 / 31.03.04

I believe that we can't say for certain til we have experienced 'it'. I know people who realise their past lives but I dunno for myself. I would like to think that our essence somehow joins with the biogram/kia til the next shift to operating a shell. Who knows??? This is atman versus atma. Whilst in deep mind delta traversing planes it seems like that may seem like disembodied conciousness. To me Heaven exists as the stars and hell seems like the dark recesses of our minds. I admit I am highly sceptical of any cult belief on the so-called after life - we all have to come to terms with death or forever cower in its path. What constitutes Ultimate Truth anyhow?

15:51 / 31.03.04

And does that opinion change with whichever paradigm you're currently using, or is it a 99.9% fixed aspect of Chaos Magick?

I only like the idea of Chaos Magic because you can make your own system. Whatever beliefs any Chaotes may have regarding the afterlife i don't really care about, unless it's a practical paradigm that you can apply for the purposes of helping your mind in the here and now.

16:18 / 31.03.04

Loads of different cultures seem to use a 'multiple soul' model, such as the 7 Egyptian souls, and the concept in Haitian Vodou of the 'gros bon ange' and 'ti bon ange', according to reconstructionists there's evidence for similar stuff in the Northen trad. For practical purposes, I'll tend to veer towards that kind of understanding of the soul.

Seperate bits that perform different functions and go off to different places after death. One component might join into something you could consider to be God, another might hang around in an ancestral capacity, another fragment might wear a white sheet over it's head and cause havoc in an abandoned funfair until a group of pesky kids turn up, whatever. I like to keep the actual specifics of it pretty vague, as it's all just speculation. Concepts such as the Holy Gaurdian Angel probably fit into this model somewhere.

16:37 / 31.03.04

It's the whole question of "The Ghost in the Machine". Ultimately, at this time it can't be proved one way or another. I have decided to believe in an afterlife, (the nature of which is mutiple in manifestation), because it gives me a sense of control over what is essentially a situation where said control does not exist. To me, that isn't a truth however. While I have communicated with the spirits of dead people, the real truth is that I may be talking to myself. Therefore, I would argue that any belief in a soul or afterlife essentially serves self. Not that it's a bad thing, though. Death is pretty scary, it is after all, one of the true unknowns of life, and I certainly have been brought up with enough scary premises to be spooked about it. Having been with people who are dying, I am amazed at the persistence of the hell doctrine. I've know people who have said they did not fear death or believe in hell, only to have it come back screaming with a vengence when they were actually dying...

Imaginary Mongoose Solutions

17:28 / 31.03.04

I consider my self a chaoite or chaos magickian or chaos ninja or what have you, and I'm still a bit up in the air on the soul thing. For the most part, I tend to not really believe in "life after death" because I really don't so much "death".

At least not in the Death = Ending of connection to this existence sort of way. But as I tend to buy into the "we're all on consciousness experiencing itself subjectively", that makes sense, right?

18:03 / 31.03.04

I'm confused.

First off, "Chaos Magick" eludes me as something someone ascribes to. It seems to me to be one of those things utterly undefinable things that emerges from a soak in postmodernism. With that in mind, I'll use Zen Memetic's definiton and spit from my Personal Worldview and Structure.

Someone mentioned the 7 Egyptian Souls, and though I didn't read much moe before I pushed the reply button, I have something built in my head that has seven layers and seven "souls".

It's based on worldviews and the chakra system, and while they're all essential parts, the part that's named "Soul" is the fourth among them.

First you've got Self -the awareness of individuality and personal momentary experience. Then you've got Ego -personal desires and drives. Then youv'e got Persona -the makeshift aspect that defines and defends you amongst peers. Then comes Soul -The awareness of the "I", not in the sense of individuality, but the sense that "I" is a series of choices along a timeflow. Then Spirit -the "idea" of you that exists in conceptual space amongst others. Then View -the alterred state that opens you up to rationality and passion of the entire system. Then Void -Bliss that annihilates any separation and "individuality", but acts through you.

Sense, Ego, Persona, Soul, Spirit, View and Void.

What I don't get is when hollywood or politicians make reference to a thing "stealing one's soul"... I completely cannot understand how that might work. I mean there are people who go through life without ever realizing their 4th soul, Soul, but once you DO get to see it, how could something take it away? Weird conceptual linguistic phraseology...

20:09 / 31.03.04

I once talked to someone who stated that they were told by a magickal practitioner that he almost did a "Soul-killing Ritual" on someone. I remember thinking much the same as above. Just how do you "kill" a soul anyway. While I suspect that he was really shouting "Boo!" at her, it still did bring up some interesting concepts. I asked her just what was supposed to happen to an individual that was hit with this. She stated that it would "cause their life to go all over the place, or just fall apart". I assume that this is a reference to getting advice from a "higher self", and that without that you would be like a boat without a rudder. Of course, if a soul actually does exist, (I'm not saying that it does),and there is an afterlife, that would bring up the interesting effect of preventng it. In short. once you are dead, you are DEAD. As was mentioned above, the integration between various states of existence seems to be so fluid and seemless, that I question the ability to actually kill someone's soul...

Shanghai Quasar

07:34 / 01.04.04

Chad: "What I don't get is when hollywood or politicians make reference to a thing 'stealing one's soul'... I completely cannot understand how that might work."

Understanding such logic works thusly: Think of a soul as the spiritual essence of a person, that extra that makes you capable of touching the infinite. Now pretend you can take it out and give it away, or have it taken out. Maybe you'll live, but thereafter you'll just be a biological process.

Unless you're thinking in some other terms, as in selling your soul to Satan, which would involve your coach seat to the Heavenly afterlife being converted to a first class ticket to Hell.