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I know you're gay/a heathen/whatever but I still like you anyway....

  
 
40%
09:31 / 30.03.04
Jack Fear - since you're more familiar with Andrew Sullivan's blog, perhaps you can find the page you linked to in the "Amendment to Ban Gay Marriages" thread. At this point, it just takes you to the front page.

At the time Jack provided the link, there was a lengthy disussion on the subject of Bush's proposed amendment, mainly featuring comments from members of the public. And one guy wrote a testimony that really stuck with me. If Jack or anyone else can find it on the blog, I'd be grateful.

He talked about how he had based his life around four groups; the republican party, his church, the scouts, or whatever they were, I forget. But he talked about how one by one, they closed doors to him because he was gay, while at the same time, wanting him to know that they still accepted him. And he said that he could only keep believing them for so long...

I have been an evangelical Christian for a lot of my life, and recently decided not to continue on that path. And I have a lot of Christian friends who I haven't told yet, and I'm still wondering how they're going to react, and how they may look at me differently.

I had lunch with a friend the other day, and when I told her this, she said to me that "you're still [my name]", and I felt at the time that was about the best thing that anyone could say.

For those who are gay and have come out to friends/family, what was it that reassured you that they still accepted you? If someone said "I know you're gay but I still like you anyway?" would that constitute any kind of acceptance? Or is being gay such a fundamental aspect of your identity that you would feel to look unfavourably upon that is to look unfavourably upon you? Anyone had experiences of feeling that they were initially accepted, but there being a moment where it came to the crunch and they realised they actually weren't?

Personal questions, I know, so if you would rather answer them less directly than I have asked them, please do. And anyone who has any input in any other area of life, that would also be appreciated. I remember Michael Moore's criteria for 'having black friends' being people you would invite round for a barbeque, people you would invite to your wedding etc. So what criteria do you apply to friendship generally? What if someone's willing to spend time with you at the pub, but doesn't want you coming to their house, or if someone will invite you to their house, but wouldn't want you to meet their family, and so on...

I've put this in the conversation so that it will be open to anecdotal evidence rather than just discussion of principles, but let's see how it goes.
 
 
Cat Chant
10:31 / 30.03.04
I don't consider that anyone has the right to accept me being queer, any more than I have the right to choose whether or not to accept someone being straight. I don't think I hang out with that many people who think they "accept" my queerness.

Or at least that's what I think I think. In practice, of course, it gets a lot more complicated than that. Nice thread - let me think about this a bit.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
12:29 / 30.03.04
Hmmm, when I told a housemate at university that I was bi she started to ask me questions and I think that really reassured me because some people just looked confused and uncomfortable but she wanted to know why I was that way and it meant that she cared enough to try and accept it- that might seem insane because it's a question that you can't really answer but that didn't matter because she was trying to get it. Since then I kind of judge people in a number of ways... if they've been through the experience themselves or if a friend they're still in contact with has in which case the questions don't need to occur or if they do ask then it's real acceptance. If they just nod and look weirded out then I think they're kind of repressing everything.
 
 
Jack Fear
12:35 / 30.03.04
For reference: the e-mail to Sullivan:

I organized my life around four institutions: my family, the Presbyterian Church, the Boy Scouts and the Republican Party. They summed up what seemed to me a sensible view of life and the world, embodying loyalty, unconditional love, a quiet, thoughtful exercise of faith, a commitment to ethical behavior, and a limited government that did the things it needed for the public good but otherwise left people alone to be all they could become and savor the victory of having done so.

Then I came out, and one by one those four institutions turned their backs on me.

My parents were embarrassed by me and stopped nearly all communication, though they said they loved me and in some way considered me part of the family.

Then my church got a new minister who had hardly arrived before he started preaching on the marriage issue and rooting out gay staff members. Commissioned a Stephen Minister, I was told I would never be assigned anyone to walk with in their troubles. But of course the church loves me and in some way considers me part of the family still.

Then the Boy Scouts went to court and said that even though I am an Eagle Scout, people like me are not good role models for the program and cannot be leaders. But of course they consider me a Scout still and are happy to ask me for my money.

And now the head of the party I've stuck with through thick and thin for 36 years says the prospect of my being able to marry is so threatening to society they have to ban it in the constitution. But the president says God loves me and I got an email from him today telling me about his campaign kickoff speech. So I guess in their compassionate conservative way the administration still thinks of me as sort of a Republican.

I don't. You can only feel the love of people and institutions who fend you off with a barge pole for so long. Today I changed my registration from Republican to independent.
 
 
D Terminator XXXIII
12:39 / 30.03.04
"I know you're gay but I still like you anyway?" would that constitute any kind of acceptance?

I'm not too keen on, you know, proclaiming to the whole world just how GAY I am. I never have and probably never will. People see me and the majority can most likely figure out where I sexually belong (however vaguely I exude gayness), but that never crops up as a topic in the beginning instances of acquiring acquaintances.

I know how people close to me will react, and if there's someone less enthusiastic about homosexuality, I then make it a point of never basing our friendship on me being oh so gay. It's very basic.

But, some weeks ago, a friend of mine told someone that I was, and her response was in the vein of "I don't have anything against homosexuals and I accept you as a homosexual." Which left me and my friend fuming.

I hate the implied moral superiority over others in expressing oneself as such. We punked her really good. Oh, we really did.

I prefer the "You're still [your name]" which is honest and direct.
 
 
40%
13:36 / 30.03.04
Thank you Jack.

Dark Son - I'm interested to know, did she just come up to you and say this? As in "hey, I just wanted you to know..." Cos I'm assuming you didn't ask for her opinion.
 
 
D Terminator XXXIII
13:38 / 30.03.04
I most certainly didn't.

She just brought it up to the surface, without any warning. We subsequently almost made her cry, the silly wench.

...sorry. Stuff like that really gets to me.
 
 
Bear
13:47 / 30.03.04
Aren't things much simpler if you don't tell people anything?

I think I have my own issues here...
 
 
Mourne Kransky
16:59 / 30.03.04
I then make it a point of never basing our friendship on me being oh so gay. It's very basic.

Also impossible, for me anyway. I can't really imagine that anybody who was upset about me being gay would want to be my friend and I might not want to describe exactly what I do in bed with everyone I meet but I wouldn't edit. If they don't like something so basic to my personality and presentation of self, they can fuck off. It's a basic fact about me, that I'm as gay as Doris Day's nipple rings, but it's not the whole story.

I don't have any rigmarole I go through to test people out and I expect people warm to me sometimes then freeze as they find out more, but that's as likely to be lots of other elements of my personality as the gay thing.

I expect I've met a few people and thought there was a friendship blossoming and it came to nothing, so maybe that was the reason. Or maybe it was something else. I don't spend a lot of time worrying about it. No time at all actually.

I'm lucky in that I'm a left wing atheist working in the NHS. Gayness no great handicap in those arenas, apart from with one fundamentalist Christian medical student and one Consultant Cardiologist c*** who were horribly rude to me in the past.

I have religious friends whose Faith condemns me, some might say. They may say explicitly or it may be implicit that they think I'm going to Hell but as long as they're fun to be with and seem to like me as I am, that's cool. I have thoughts about their religions often that I might hold back or would phrase very carefully. I'm not exactly a magnet for right wing puritanical types, I have to admit.

I even have friends who voted for Thatcher. See how I "accept" all sorts of deviants.

As far as the difference between "real" and "counterfeit" friendship, I think it's more the case that I have friendships and relationships of varying degrees of intensity. Maybe I'd think of the "counterfeit" ones as acquaintances and maintain a greater distance.

The important thing, HB 123, is that you don't decide how to live your life because other people approve. Do it because it's right for you and the rest will fall into place, with maybe a modicum of effort.
 
 
40%
17:14 / 30.03.04
Thanks for the words of encouragement Xoc.

[And thanks for making me sound like a pencil]
 
 
w1rebaby
22:04 / 30.03.04
It's the "tolerance" thing again, isn't it? If you "tolerate" someone it means you think there's something wrong with what they're doing but you're prepared not to do anything about it.

Stating that you "accept" someone without being prompted is basically saying "I think you're wrong but I'm going to put up with it because I'm nice", which is a way of getting that message in. I know people with whom I disagree but I don't go around telling them how I'm prepared to accept them despite their awful flaws. If it's not a problem with you, you shouldn't have to mention it at all.

Having said that there are all sorts of well-meaning reasons why someone might say they "accept" you - they may be worried that you will automatically think they won't, they may think you are concerned about that and want to reassure you. Possibly annoying but not malicious.
 
 
Disco is My Class War
04:24 / 31.03.04
This has been on my mind a lot lately. I don't know how to judge the difference between real and 'counterfeit' acceptance, and it's tying me in knots. I probably encountered a whole lot of weirdness from various people when I came out as queer, a long time ago now, but I don't think that's anything compared to peoples' various responses to my gender transition. A lot of very close friends have said on the face of it that they accept what I'm doing, but since I told them, lots have simply grown a whole lot more distant.

Other friends, rather than distancing themselves, tend to repress their 'troubles' and make as if they're totally cool with the whole thing. The troubles leak out in all kinds of weird ways. One of those ways is to make a big deal of relating transgender stuff to out-there political radicalism, ie a friend asked me the other day if there was much 'backdoor' radical surgery going on in the 'trans movement', he thought that would be really cool. I didn't know how to respond: part of me thought he was just trying to relate this to his own experience or interests, and part of me thought there was a level of anxiety or panic floating underneath his apparent 'coolness'. This is a friend who's been talking online lately, in response to me, about how how he thinks identity needs to be stable sometimes and that 'self-reinvention' is self-indulgent. It's hard to know if he even recognises that saying that to me comes across as a complete denial of what I'm doing with my body and my life.

So what do I do about this? I need friends desperately, more now than ever before, and I'm no longer so choosy that I take every hurtful thing up with friends like this. I bury it, and I hope people change. I don't feel like I have any other option -- other than to alienate people entirely. On the other hand, various people remind me at times that I need to be 'accepting', to let people attempt to take it on, but really, if it hurts, it hurts. Why should I simply accept most people's complete inability to deal with transgenderness and the ways it makes them so self-consciously uncomfortable about their own gender/sexuality configurations? Why do people feel that they either have to distance themselves (one way of not dealing with it) or pretend that they're A-OK and completely accept me, when I can see that they don't? If they have trouble, I would rather they talked to me about it: I don't see this 'counterfeit acceptance' as malicious, far from it, but the denial that it exists is just as painful as if it were deliberate and phobic.
 
 
Cat Chant
06:44 / 31.03.04
Mister Disco - that reminds me of I think bell hooks, talking about how white people become "really white" around her but never feel comfortable referring to race...

was just on the 'uncle/aunt' thread and it occurred to me that on some level I don't "accept" my sister's married-with-kids lifestyle, which is a disconcerting realization and I can't figure out what to do about it. Though I think what I don't accept isn't her lifestyle per se, it's her apparent belief that it's the 'universal language' into which all other experiences can be translated. When I got together with my girlfriend, her second and third questions to me were "Are you going to get married?" (No, my politics have not been changed by having a shag) and "If you could fuse your ova together and have a baby, would you?" (No, my deep desire not to be a parent and my mild distaste at the idea that parenthood is all about genetics have also not been altered by having a shag). So maybe I should just start asking her questions like "So what are you and [husband] going to do when you meet someone else you're sexually attracted to?" or "Are you going to adopt the next child?"
 
 
Mourne Kransky
07:11 / 31.03.04
thanks for making me sound like a pencil

You shall henceforward be dubbed 2HB then, perhaps after the Roxy Music tribute of that name, to Humphrey Bogart.
 
 
bjacques
08:48 / 31.03.04
(digression)
And performed brilliantly in "Velvet Goldmine!" Cheers to Bryan Ferry and Brian Eno for letting their '70s classics be used in the movie; rotten tomatoes to David Bowie for not, preferring to launch his own Ziggy Stardust-esque movie which, er, never materialized.

(closer to topic)
In the wake of Bush's announcement of the proposed Amendment, I watched a spokesman (the chairman?) of the Log Cabin Republicans (to non-U.S.: a lobby group of gay supporters of the GOP) being interviewed on CNN or the BBC. He clearly feared the question would arise as to whether the LCR would back Bush this November. It didn't, amazingly.

I can't believe the LCR would even hesitate. They needn't defect to the Democrats, but they could pointedly sponsor only moderate Republicans, not the whole party. The rest of this year's money could provide legal defense to gays being discriminated against under (mostly) Republican laws. The GOP as it is now will happily take gays' money and then send them all to the gallows. After the checks clear.

(back on topic)

Only time lets you judge genuineness of acceptance. In your (Jack's) world, acceptance of homosexuality is a lot to ask, and friends and fellow parishioners will need some time. Give the ones closest to you a chance to get used to the idea of you being gay. Your true friends won't sacrifice you to their politics or God. The ones who fall away, try not to judge them too harshly. People are weak.

Friends, political parties and even churches change with time (well, maybe not the Boy Scouts of America). The GOP will--ahem, God willing--lose badly on November and become more tolerant out of political necessity if not genuine repentance. The Presbyterian Synod (or whatever it's called) I gather are going through a conservative time. I vaguely remember something in the news about gays or female ministers. You may not be the only member unhappy with intolerance in the church.

I'm neither gay, nor Christian nor a Republican, but I was a Boy Scout for about 6 months (I don't like camping).
 
 
D Terminator XXXIII
08:57 / 31.03.04
Also impossible, for me anyway.

I comes down to the choices one makes, doesn't it? I won't and don't base my existence on me liking blokes just slightly more than women, in that special way.

I make my homosexuality a non-issue.
 
 
40%
09:11 / 31.03.04
Give the ones closest to you a chance to get used to the idea of you being gay. Your true friends won't sacrifice you to their politics or God.

Is that addressed to me? Sorry, I may have been a little unclear in the first post, so let me clarify:

"I have been an evangelical Christian for a lot of my life, and recently decided not to continue on that path. And I have a lot of Christian friends who I haven't told yet [that I'm no longer a Christian], and I'm still wondering how they're going to react [to me not being a Christian], and how they may look at me differently."

So I'm drawing a parallel between being accepted for/despite being gay, and being accepted for/despite turning your back on your religion, in terms of how you know whether people still accept you.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
10:53 / 31.03.04
Great topic, these are really important questions IMO. this is going to be a bit of an essay, i'm afraid, as i'm thinking about this alot myself...

I don't really know how to do it immediately, usually I try and assume people are cool*(and by cool, i certainly don't mean 'tolerant' or 'accepting', while are vile for the reasons given by others) until I find out otherwise,

Over time it does surface if they're not. As others have said, people get distant, or they over-compensate madly, or you'll find out from someone else, or they'll just freak. Which are all pretty unpleasant, and are likely to = they don't want to have a connection to me, nor I to them.

I agree with Anna and Disco on the questions thing, to me that means people are trying to understand, engage. I want people to talk to me, not pretend everything's fine when it isn't.

Oh, and I'm biqueer and British Asian btw two things which aren't everything I am, but are bloody important to me.

*like Xoc, alot of my context is alot easier than yours - i'm a hindu-raised lefty doley living in the 'UK's Gay Capital'tm, doing counselling/therapy work for a women's charity.

Buuut, outright racism/homophobia do pop up from time to time, along with more prevalent and annoying liberal tolerance. *spits*

Had a difficult time with myself when in India recently. Talked to my dad who said it would just cause grief if i was out(most of my family there would go insane I think, it would be 'disgrace to our family' stuff, the culture's soooo different.), that we were only seeing them for a few weeks it wouldn't come up. Agreed then, but it was weird and difficult and i'm not sure if it was the right decision, as I *did* get asked several times when I was getting married etc.

This is the one area I have where I do have connections/investments in culture that is definitely homophobic, and I'm not sure what to do about it either.

Do I tell 'em, and alienate an entire family I'm really glad to have? Or do I leave it, given that I'm only likely to see most of them once every two or three years?
 
 
Source
12:11 / 31.03.04
I shouldn't be replying to this thread because I'm not gay and I cannot relate to any of your experiences.

However, I might be able to offer my opinion, as a straight person who has a family member who is gay.

My brother is 7 years older than me and when I was 15 (I'm 22 now), my brother told me that he is gay. The first thing I said to him was "Cool, when can I meet your boyfriend?". My brother was very relieved and to this day, he still tells all of his friends of how I reacted and always reminds me. I hugged him and all was well.

I love my brother with all my heart, but as a straight man, I must confess that soon after my brother told me that he's gay, I went through a period of questioning my own sexuality. I had no one to talk about it, either. I was in the rugby team, so were most of my friends, and it's not exactly something you can bring up in the locker room.

In retrospect, I'm glad my brother told me that he is gay and I went through that period of questioning my sexuality, because I'm sure I would have gone through that at some point in my life, anyway.

However, nothing really prepared me for the feelings that I had. I had no problem with my brother being gay at all, it just made me question whether I was gay and that did leave me very confused for a while. I think that when any straight man meets a gay man for the first time, if they've never questioned their own sexuality, that will force them to do so. As for women, I couldn't say, since I'm not one.

My only suggestion/guess is that, sometimes, when you tell someone that you're gay, how they react has nothing to do with how comfortable they are with you, but how comfortable they are with themselves.

If you're comfortable enough in your own skin, you should have no problem with anyone else being who they are.

But I'm afraid that, even at 22, I'm probably the most naive person on the planet. It's only in the last year that I've noticed how much racism and lack of acceptance there still is around the world. On Christmas Eve last year, I met up with my brother and some of his friends in a gay bar. As the night went on, everyone started talking about what presents they had bought and then what they were doing for Christmas day. As it turned out, all of his friends were spending Christmas together. I couldn't believe that their families were so unnaccepting of their sexuality that they wouldn't allow them to come home for Christmas.

I've talked a lot about me and my feelings in this post, purely to offer my opinion as a straight man and because I can't speak for anyone else. This is all just my own humble opinion.

My brother is a strong person and he didn't need my acceptance, or anyone elses for that matter. He's just glad that he has it and knows that I love him very much, just as I am glad that he accepts me for who I am and loves me too.

My brother and I share the same likes and opinions on many subjects. I don't treat him as a "gay man" and I don't expect him to like shows like Will & Grace or Queer As Folk purely because he's gay.

He's comfortable enough to take me to gay bars and clubs, and I'm comfortable enough to tell him that I think his boyfriend is fine and a good catch.

It's not about wanting to be "cool" or "okay" about my brother's sexuality. It's about him being my brother and me wanting to have a relationship with him. But some people will just need time. When you tell someone that you're gay, and you're the first gay guy that they've met, their thoughts will be more about them questioning themselves and their own lifestyle, rather than them questioning you and your lifestyle.

All of this doesn't mean that I'm going to like every gay man that I meet in my lifetime. Some people just don't get on, so your sexuality obviously isn't going to be the sole reason why someone doesn't get on with you. So cherish the friendships that you have, forget the people you don't get get on with, and fuck the people who will never like you purely because of your sexuality.
 
 
Bear
12:38 / 31.03.04
I'm probably the most naive person on the planet. It's only in the last year that I've noticed how much racism and lack of acceptance there still is around the world.

I think I suffer from this a great deal too, I've never seen anyone being hassled for their race/sexuality and sometimes I forget that it happens - I believe it does but it's hard sometimes to comprehend - do people still get hassle in London for being gay? Things are getting better all the time right?

I was thinking this morning on the train that I would never be able to "come out" to my friends back home, I'm pretty sure that they would never accept it but that's just the way it is I guess...
 
 
40%
13:10 / 31.03.04
I shouldn't be replying to this thread because I'm not gay and I cannot relate to any of your experiences.

Not at all. As I said, "anyone who has any input in any other area of life, that would also be appreciated."

And yours certainly was.
 
 
Spaniel
14:21 / 31.03.04
Source, the topic deals with the issue of acceptance in general.

Welcome to Barbefun.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
14:35 / 31.03.04
But some people will just need time. When you tell someone that you're gay, and you're the first gay guy that they've met, their thoughts will be more about them questioning themselves and their own lifestyle, rather than them questioning you and your lifestyle.

This is the best bit of a wise post and is worth bearing in mind. It's something I find easy to forget. Welcome, indeed, Source.
 
 
salix lucida
15:45 / 31.03.04
I think both the best and worst thing I've gotten from anybody (about queerness) in my support structures was my grandmother... "Yeah. I kind of knew that. Are you dating [good female friend]?" It sort of unsettled me as I had to wonder what else she'd assumed about me, but overall it was a good thing. It's also about the same things she said when I mentioned my life was getting polyamorous and the current Boy and I had acquired someone. She's cool like that.

My mom doesn't want me to talk about it to her ever, lest the "squick" be rekindled, and my dad doesn't care at all. I suppose my family's not really good at the faking acceptance thing, and while my mom's reaction kind of hurts, I rather prefer it to bullshit.

Outside of family, my meter on real and fake acceptance is the focus of the reactionary statement. "You're You. You've always been You. You will always be You. I like You." reads real. "You're This Thing. I don't like this Thing. But you're ALSO You. I like you." reads fake, even when it's just general discomfort. It can become real later, after a person has time to think on it. It just never seems to start out feeling that way, and I don't deal with it very well.
 
 
Mourne Kransky
20:08 / 31.03.04
Lots of food for thought in those posts and, like Bengali, I found these thoughts of Source's resonant:

I had no problem with my brother being gay at all, it just made me question whether I was gay and that did leave me very confused for a while.

I think that's often the case. It can be a lot more to do with the other person's feelings about their own sexuality. I've often had the feeling that it wasn't me being gay that was the issue so much as the other person's own accommodation with sexual identity was being challenged.

And that works for the religious disclosure too, I think. If I had been a person whose religion was to the fore in interactions with others, surrounded by others with (they thought) the same certainties and I tell them I have lost my Faith or have otherwise rejected it, then the other person may well be questioning their own certainties about Belief. What they thought was immutable fact suddenly isn't and if someone they identify with can go through such a change, they panic that they might too.

Often people like things neat and tidy and whatever you present them with that's new to them, they're wondering how this new fact can be assimilated into the scheme of things they've left unquestioned. Makes sense in terms of experiential learning theory for sure.

That mechanism works when you've been a chain smoked and you quit too, or if you've been understood to be gay and you start a relationship with someone of the opposite sex, just as much as if you leave the heterosexual club or you hand back your hymnary.

You're well aware of the journey you've been on that brings you to this point. For you, it's just the next logical step. For observers, it looks like it suddenly changed overnight and you have become a different (untrustworthy) person. They think you've made an arbitrary choice out of the blue when you know this is only one of many choices you've made over time.

Fortunately, my experience has been that the majority, and just about always the ones who matter, will make the necessary adjustments and, as time passes, their image of you becomes more accurate and informed by your own honesty.
 
 
40%
21:02 / 31.03.04
On the religious thing...

Part of the reason I question the whole issue of acceptance is not just because of people reacting badly to me losing my faith, but because of people's indifference at times. I've had an interesting variety of reactions. One I already mentioned, the 'you're still you' reaction.

Some people seemed quite shocked. One mate of mine said "what? You're thinking of jacking it in altogether...dude that's huge!" He went on to explain that I was one of the first Christians he'd met at university, so it was quite significant for him. In fact, now I think about it, that was about the only strong reaction I can remember.

A lot of other people seemed to just come to terms with it immediately, which I found strange. The charismatics are the most annoying, they're the ones who will respond by looking you dead in the face and asking you why. Like, what do you expect me to say? I woke up this morning feeling a little frisky? Like Xoc says, there's always a lot of background to the big decisions you make in life, far too much to explain in a soundbite. But anyway, often they will say things like "yeah, I think it's good you're thinking things through" or "well, you've got to really believe it I suppose".

And I'm like, well great, I appreciate your understanding that, but aren't you at all bothered that I don't believe it anymore? It kinda makes me question whether me being a fellow believer meant that much to some people in the first place.

But the trouble with (at least some) Christian culture is that it's a rule that you have to be loving and accepting towards other people, and to show any sign of doing otherwise would trouble people's consciences. Hence I get the feeling that genuine acceptance for other people gets cheapened. When I was younger I felt that it was wrong that I liked some people more than others, but I couldn't help it. I don't think anyone can.

I don't think that necessarily has to be a problem. You can have particular liking for some people, and a general acceptance for everyone, with good conscience, I reckon. But on the other side of the coin, I did get this feeling sometimes that I didn't know who was being nice to me because they felt they had to, and who really liked me.

Now obviously it's no good trying to test people. Like people have said, it generally becomes clear over time who your real friends are. But when you renounce your faith, it does act as a kind of test. And I've found that generally people's reactions are, "well fair enough, you've gotta do what you've gotta do". And again, I'm thinking, well yes I know that, but isn't it kind of important? Why are you acting like there's no big change here?

I think the parallel with coming out may be that the acceptance just seems to come too easily sometimes. People are trying to look completely unphased, to take it on board without even blinking. And you're thinking, come on! I know, based on the sort of person you are and our history that you're having a reaction you're not showing, and if you're not, you bloody should be!

I think Anna's point rings true for me. I like someone to care enough to want to understand. And if someone doesn't ask any questions, or just asks a dumb and lazy question like "Really? Why?" it doesn't fill you with confidence.
 
 
40%
21:10 / 31.03.04
In fact, I think I'm going to make a pact with myself. Every Christian I tell about my apostasy who looks genuinely troubled by it gets a pint.
 
 
Source
22:19 / 31.03.04
Thank you for the warm welcome, guys.

Tom Coates did an excellent job with this redesign.

In response to Bear in Mind - My brother, his boyfriend and his friends all live and work in London and they don't seem to have any problems. Although perhaps things do happen occasionally and my brother just doesn't feel the need to mention them anymore.
 
 
Cat Chant
07:05 / 01.04.04
the parallel with coming out may be that the acceptance just seems to come too easily sometimes

Ooh, interesting. I think for me that gets at one of the big differences between 'apostasy' (as it were) and coming out: 'coming out' isn't necessarily a state change - it never really was for me (I never came out to my parents, any more than my straight sibs did. Actually I don't think I ever came out at all). I get mildly annoyed if people assume I'm a straight girl in the first place, whereas you were a believer and the people you're telling know that.

Thinking about it, the place where I do tend to find the 'unblinking acceptance' rings a bit false is when people find out about the age gap (27 years) between me and my gf. I have one joyously tactless friend who downed three glasses of wine and said "She's going to die a long time before you, you know" and a few friends who somehow... don't ask questions as such but make it clear that they'd listen to the answers, if you see what I mean. They sort of leave a space open where I could talk about what the age gap meant to me, rather than just parcelling up their own understanding of it and going off. I think that's more important to me than "acceptance", and it's that space that gets closed down, maybe, when people are either busy being "that's cool" or projecting their own anxieties about faith/sexuality/gender into that space.
 
  
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