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When we look up at the stars, are we trying to find the way back to ourselves?

  
 
admiraladz
11:28 / 28.03.04
s0 th1s m4g1k bus1n3ss, 1f 1t w0rks th3n why h4sn't 1t b3c0m3 m0r3 4cc3pt3d 1nt0 m41nstr34m ph1l0s0ph1c4l 4nd m0r4l th0ught?

M3r3ly c0ll3ct1ng str4ng3 0r 3xpl1c4bl3 3xp3r13nc3s t4k3n fr0m th3 l1v3s 0f b1ll10ns 0f p30pl3 4nd 4ss3mbl1ng th3m t0 l00k l1k3 pr0p3r d4t4 d03s n0t m4k3 1t g3nu1n3, but 1 supp0s3 w3'r3 l00k1ng 4t 4 l0tt3ry 1n wh1ch 0nly th3 w1nn1ng numb3rs 4r3 3v3r v1s1bl3.

1 gu3ss p30pl3 d3s1r3 s0m3th1ng myst1c4l, s0m3th1ng d1ff3r3nt t0 br34k th3 dr34ry m0n0t0ny 0f 3v3ryd4y l1f3, but 1t's l1k3 s3ll1ng 1c3 t0 3sk1m0s (0r d0 1 h4v3 t0 s4y 1nnu1ts?)... b3c4us3 h3r3 w3 4r3 w4nd3r1ng 4r0und 1n 4 w0rld 0f w0nd3rful 4dv3ntur3. 4 w0rk 0f cr34t10n. S0 why sh0uld w3 3nt3r th3 f0rtun3-t3ll3r's t3nt 0r th3 b4cky4rds 0f 4c4d3m3 1n s34rch 0f s0m3th1ng 3xc1t1ng 0r tr4nsc3nd3nt4l?

D03s l1f3 4s 1t 1s d1s4pp01nt y0u?

1 supp0s3 1 b3l13v3 th4t th3r3 1s 0nly 0n3 n4tur3, but r4th3r th4n f1nd1ng th4t dr34ry, 1 f1nd th4t n4tur3 1n 1ts3lf 4st0n1sh1ng. M4yb3, 0n3 d4y, 4 sc3pt1c l1k3 m3 c0uld b3 0bl1g3d t0 4cc3pt 4 ph3n0m3n0n 1 d1d n0t b3l13v3 1n b3f0r3. 1f 1 d1d n0t k33p th1s p0ss1b1l1ty 0p3n 1 w0uld b3 D0gm4t1c, 4nd gu1lty 0f 3v3n w0rs3 th4n s3lf-d3c3pt10n.
 
 
Tom Coates
12:16 / 28.03.04
Wow. That's entirely not going to get annoying really quickly.
 
 
rising and revolving
12:23 / 28.03.04
For those who find l33t speak as annoying as I do (but then I also find TOPY style "ov" and Crowleyesque "Magick" annoying too - why deliberately obfuscate communication when you're trying to communicate?) here's the post in english.

"so this magik business, if it works then why hasn't it become more accepted into mainstream philosophical and moral thought?

Merely collecting strange or explicable experiences taken from the lives of billions of people and assembling them to look like proper data does not make it genuine, but i suppose we're looking at a lottery in which only the winning numbers are ever visible.

i guess people desire something mystical, something different to break the dreary monotony of everyday life, but it's like selling ice to eskimos (or do i have to say innuits?)... because here we are wandering around in a world of wonderful adventure. a work of creation. So why should we enter the fortune-teller's tent or the backyards of academe in search of something exciting or transcendental?

Does life as it is disappoint you?

i suppose i believe that there is only one nature, but rather than finding that dreary, i find that nature in itself astonishing. Maybe, one day, a sceptic like me could be obliged to accept a phenomenon i did not believe in before. if i did not keep this possibility open i would be Dogmatic, and guilty of even worse than self-deception."


If you can't accept a phenomenon that you didn't believe in before, well - that would mean you're incapable of ever changing your mind. Which would be sad. Honestly, the real trouble is that people look for validation elsewhere - whereas magic is generally speaking an art of self discovery. If you're interested enough to post here, and if you're not just trolling (a pretty big if, actually - especially given the leet) then the best thing you can do is simply start DOING some magic. It's not an art that develops well from book learnin' alone.

What I'm trying to say, I guess - is if it does work for someone, why does that bother you? If it doesn't bother you, what are you doing here? Are you actually hoping someone will unlock the big, mystical secret for you? If so, I can help. The secret is - go out and start doing it. It'll work.

Then you can turn your sceptical mind to the whys and wherefores. Which will benefit everyone, or result in you running around in internal circles searching for the real truth beneath the metaphors.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
18:53 / 28.03.04
So why should we enter the fortune-teller's tent or the backyards of academe in search of something exciting or transcendental?

Does life as it is disappoint you?

It's not about escapism mate, it's about genuine striving with all of your heart and soul to live in the world the best way that you can, it's about trying to engage with parts of yourself, and parts of your reality that you might otherwise shy away from, it's about trying - perhaps fruitlessly, perhaps not - to be the best that you can while you're here. Even if you drop the ball from time to time, it's the trying that's important. 'Magic' is a woefully inadequate term to encompass all of the stuff that tends to get lumped together under that heading, and I can only really talk about what all this stuff means to me personally. But stick around, read the threads, there are a lot of very clued-up people who hang out on this forum who are doing some extremely interesting and constructive things with the variety of methodologies commonly grouped together and labelled 'magic. If you're looking for people to patronise about their motivations, interest and engagement in magic and related areas, then I'd suggest you look elsewhere on the web. Christ knows there's no shortage of easy targets. For my money, I'd say that more sceptical voices in barbelith's 'magic and spirituality' forum would be very welcome. Whereas trolling is emphatically NOT welcome. Which side of the fence do you fall?
 
 
angel
20:52 / 28.03.04
I know that "what he said" posts are not very helpful, but I feel very strongly pushed to add that what Gypsy Lantern said is way on the money. And far more eloquent than anything I could come up with at this point in time.

For me Magick is a way of being, a way of living, and something that I can neither deny or revoke.

I am what I am, and that it seems is a hedgewich. Whatcha gonna do?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:38 / 28.03.04
(or do i have to say innuits?)

Inuit. The singular is "Inuk". If you're going to try this rather tired "look! Look! I'm being all politically incorrect! Attention, please!" gambit, at least try not to show your ignorance while doing it. It's embarrassing.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
01:08 / 29.03.04
Let's leave aside the T-word for a bit, because--l33t and sundry annoyances aside--there is the kernal of an interesting thread floating around here.

Speaking for myself, I'd be perfectly happy with a world sans magick. Lots of perfectly decent stuff around: lichens, kakapos, ring-tailed lemurs, plenty to keep anyone happy for years on end. If you want magick just to make your world interesting, then what you need is a clip round the ear.

In fact, I like the world without magick so much that I've been known to chuck it in altogether for periods of a year and up. It always creeps back into my life, though.

As for the abscence of magick in 'mainstream thought': Look, magick is hard work. You may get beginner's luck and have some impressive results very early on, but most people will have to stick with it for a while to get to the proverbial "Holy cats, this shit is REAL!" moment. To sustain yourself beyond the euphoria of that moment requires rather more work than most people would be willing to put in-- especially since there are lots of perfectly valid outlets for one's energy that don't involve a major psychological reshuffle.
 
 
Shanghai Quasar
02:55 / 29.03.04
If you accept magic to be real in whatever form, isn't that just part of 'life as it is'? You believe it to be part of nature, not something to be divided from the rest. It doesn't add to the world - it's part of the world.

So, really, your question does perplex me. Supposing that you are speaking to people who believe in magic, it seems to make no sense whatsoever. Magic can't add something more to the wonder that is nature if it's always been there, always been a part of nature, can it?

Or, yeah, wishy-washy bollocks. I'll just be off then.
 
 
illmatic
08:25 / 29.03.04
so this magik business, if it works then why hasn't it become more accepted into mainstream philosophical and moral thought?

Well, that’s arguable for a start – it depends on where we set the limits of magick and magickal discourse. There was an interesting thread here recently under the title of “wounded healers” which I suggest you look up, which looked at the similarity between some areas of magick and counselling and psychotherapy. I think you would agree that these areas are, if not mainstream are at least accepted and valued in our society.

To judge from the quote above, I assume what you mean by magick is “acasual phenomena”, that is outside events coincide with meaning in the consciousness of the observer, but with no physical cause, which leads to the postulation of an unknown agency linking them. This agency would be the force of synchronicity to use Jung’s term, or magick. Miracles, in another word. This is a narrow definition of magick which misses out 9/10ths of the interesting stuff, but it’s forgiveable to focus on here, as it’s the point which raises the most hackles and resistance. I’d say that the reason this phenomena isn’t accepted or recognised is because you are talking about something which isn’t knowable through scientific process. ie. the process of repeatable testing, and scientific process determines what is true in our culture. An amazing accurate Tarot reading, or a sigil working, as striking as they might be to me, still occurs in our subjectivity, and as such, an observer is always capable of dismissing them as delusion or hallucination.

Getting back to the broader definition for a moment. there’s plenty of forces in our culture which contest this kind of scientific rationality, or push against it’s limits. One examples that spring to mind are the struggles of acupuncture to gain scientific acceptance – as far as I’m aware, it still something of a limbo status, here in that’s it popularly used without deeper explanations of how it does so being accepted. Would anybody care to add any philosophical works which do the same thing? I’d just say I don’t want to fall into the trap here of characterising all scientific thought as the same, or calling it “the enemy”. I think there’s an incredible amount of value in scientific process, only I don’t think it’s got all the bases covered. Might come back to the rest of your post at some point but I need to get on with some work.

And mate, please drop that typing style.
 
 
---
12:45 / 29.03.04
Putting aside that rant i had at you in another forum i'd say that there's no way you can grasp what the word magic symbolizes without trying it yourself.

It's not really something that you can understand just by reading about it, but saying that there are texts/books/comics you can read that will actually bring about magical changes in you.

(i read The Zelator by Mark Hedsel and David Ovason, and then arrived at a situation where i actually saw reality change before my own eyes.)

If your really interested in it but your not sure wether or not it's real : you'll know if you keep trying at it.

Then you'll also be saying the same type of thing that we're saying here to other people in the future if/when asked yourself.
 
 
Dances with Gophers
17:04 / 29.03.04
The motivation behind doing magick is probably as diverse as the branches of magick. To make that more complicated, not everyone can decide on what magick is, the edges are distinctly blurred. Alchemists were both magicians and scientists, they influenced not only magick but also modern science. To me that is what magick is 90% about, the quest for knowledge. There can also be a religeous element to magick and vice versa.

And I think this may answer a question, when magick becomes mainstream it is called something else, it's a paradigm shift. Modern science would seem like magic to the ancients!

However I could be talking out of my backside!
Does it matter, if it seem to work go with it.
 
 
sine
18:43 / 29.03.04
so this magik business, if it works then why hasn't it become more accepted into mainstream philosophical and moral thought?

A Course in Miracles.

The Celestine Prophecy.

Hell, read any of Amway or the other pyramid schemes' motivational how-to-get-rich-and-be-self-satisfied guides. Full of magick, every one.

Most religions, if you get down to it, have some provision for supernatural power, even if they don't approve.

Where magick has been slow to catch is academia, hence the lack of representation in conventional philosophy. But as far as mainstream goes...you can't get much more mainstream than the *shivers* Celestine Prophecy for chrissake.
 
 
Olulabelle
19:11 / 29.03.04
It's a hard subject to come to terms with if you are a skeptic, principally because as everyone here has already postulated, there really isn't much scientific proof.

And it depends what you term as magick. Synchronicity? Is that magick? Here you are with this thread and we are talking about 'proof' but (oh my goodness, what a coincidence ) only this morning I wrote something about the value (or not) of proof in magick.

What about Telepathy? Is that magick? Precognition? Precognitive Dreaming? Lucid Dreaming? Reiki? Castanedan? Chaos? Wiccan? Tarot reading? Clairvoyancy? Remote Seeing? And so on and so forth.

Take telepathy for example. There have been all sorts of scientific experiments with varying results. 'Telephone telepathy' (or the art of knowing who it is that is calling you) is, IIRC, the most scientifically 'viable' but it's still nowhere nearer to actually being accepted as fact. But have you ever willed someone to ring you? Did they ring? They did?! Golly. What a coincidence!

Coincidence is the skeptical word for magick. Because willing someone to ring you isn't possible, right?

Do you think the ability to manipulate your dreams is magick? If you knew it was possible to decide what you wished to dream every night, would you practice so you could? Do you think other people can contact you in the dreaming, and is that magick?

Or does none of it count until it is scientifically proven?

This 'proof' thing bugs me. I was thinking about it today with reference to dreaming (I know I am always going on about dreaming and I'm sure it bores the tits off everyone, but that's my best reference point, sorry). You see, last night I dreamt about a huge rainbow and lots of rainbow coloured objects, Orange cups with strawberry coloured liquid in them and the like. Then I woke up, wrote it down, got up, came here and nearly fainted. Rainbows everywhere you look!

But where's the proof? Sure, it says in my dream journal that I wrote it at 6.29am, but I could have written that after I saw the new look Lith. I could have. But I didn't.

You see the point is, the only proof of it is me. That I know it really happened. It doesn't count as scientific proof, but why does it need to? Why do I need to convince you, or anyone else? It happened to me and I know it did and that's all that matters.

You see, I think magick is about 'self'. It's about using your own mental power to achieve what you want, using your own inate ability to make certain things happen and it's something you have to practice. Often you find the people who don't believe in it are also the same sort of people who can't be arsed to practice because they'd rather go down the pub, or can't be bothered to read a confusing and complicated book because it's easier to read Nick Hornby.

If they choose not to, that's fine, it doesn't matter to me because it doesn't affect me and my magick.

That's why this: "there are a lot of very clued-up people who hang out on this forum who are doing some extremely interesting and constructive things with the variety of methodologies commonly grouped together and labelled 'magic" is so relevant. Everyone here is doing various sets of different things, or sometimes completely different things from anyone, but it's all encompassed under the same term and we all have the same goal, to improve ourselves, gain knowledge and extend our abilities as far as they can go.

And anyway, why do you need proof?

You believe in love don't you? But where's your 'proof' of that? Show me the scientific evidence for the fact that you love someone...

You can't, you see, because it's all in your head. But it's still real isn't it?

It's as real and true and as physical and as factual as you yourself are.
 
 
mixmage
02:31 / 30.03.04
I'm calling you out on this, buddy... correct me if I'm wrong BUT,

Aren't you the same Admiral Adz who said something along the lines of "the forecast for tomorrow is shit. If we get really hammered and hung-over, It'll be bloody glorious"?

... and it was.

How does the jedi mind-trick work? If you analyse it too much, does it stop working? I'll admit to being drunk while writing this, were j00 5t0n3d?

Gotta admit, not read this thread before replying but I'll bet they're accusing you of living under a bridge. So.... Level Off!

reads thread

Inuit? he's out of it, d00000d!... your personal love of nature, elevated to a spiritual ground... well, that ain't so far from the basis of what some might call "paganism". Having said that, not all people who call themself pagan actively practise "magick". Your little tricks and "headology", man, Granny Weatherwax knows 'em all. Ever prayed or wished for something? Ever got it?

The mumbojumbo and abracadaver is props and set dressing... altering the outcome of chance by will alone? No shiny zippos or spectacles to read your opponents hand through? Heh... it's only magic when you don't know how they did it.
 
 
mixmage
02:40 / 30.03.04
oh yeah... The subjective nature of any "proof" the average magicko turns up has been covered too. Try searching for "madness".
 
 
admiraladz
11:35 / 01.04.04
Mordant - The l33t was just to see if anyone cared about WHAT I was saying as opposed to HOW I was saying it. Sorry if it annoyed.

if you're not just trolling (a pretty big if, actually - especially given the leet) then the best thing you can do is simply start DOING some magic. It's not an art that develops well from book learnin' alone.chyrsalis

I’m not even at the reading books stage. I’m more at the ‘what is all this magick stuff, and how could it benefit me mentally or physically? Oh .. and why it seems that magick is a covert way of getting your desires (hence all the ‘my love spell didn’t work style posts)

If it doesn't bother you, what are you doing here? Are you actually hoping someone will unlock the big, mystical secret for you? If so, I can help. The secret is - go out and start doing it. It'll work.chyrsalis

Oh it does bother me, but I don’t know if it’s worth investigating. It seems that most people are able to live their whole lives without learning magick, but not necessarily without learning to write.

If you're looking for people to patronise about their motivations, interest and engagement in magic and related areas, then I'd suggest you look elsewhere on the web. Christ knows there's no shortage of easy targets. For my money, I'd say that more sceptical voices in barbelith's 'magic and spirituality' forum would be very welcome. Whereas trolling is emphatically NOT welcome. Which side of the fence do you fall?Gypsy Lantern

I don’t have the time or inclination to troll boards, but when a subject that interests me and hasn’t managed to make it under the “I’m too busy to do any more” radar comes along, I find it best to speak to someone who knows about these things rather than read a book that may or may not be an accepted text or point of view, or even an oversimplification. After all you can’t ask a book a question. So I’d have to say I am a sceptic with an open mind and an alternative point of view who would like to be able to participate in some of your discussions – mainly those that interest me.

Inuit. The singular is "Inuk". If you're going to try this rather tired "look! Look! I'm being all politically incorrect! Attention, please!" gambit, at least try not to show your ignorance while doing it. It's embarrassing. I'm Starskey, he's Haus

I have posted a few times on lith before, and have found that the main cause for complaint or argument about any of my posts has been the tone, style, political correctness, the use of he/she/I/we, or in fact anything APART from the research or the content. Forgive me for having to write in an over sympathetic and self-parodying manner, and if Starskey is just trying to get into a flame match so that he can bawl me out as another troll then he is wasting his time. If he doesn’t want me to post here – just ask. I am new and will conceivably be able to live the rest of my life without lith. (let’s hope he was just making a joke as opposed to being an, albeit intelligent, bully)

If you accept magic to be real in whatever form, isn't that just part of 'life as it is'? You believe it to be part of nature, not something to be divided from the rest. It doesn't add to the world - it's part of the world.Shanghai Quasar (these by lines are not to single people out btw – I’m still trying to get to know everyone)

You might think that as common sense, but not knowing anything (I really mean anything) about Magick, it isn’t that simple to me. I always thought it was wands and wizards, sigils and curses, dragons and fireballs. The reason I’m asking is because I get the feeling that I might well be wrong (which I hate, but accept regularly). The thought process itself span off from another idea I was having at the time…. Christianity. I mean surely if you believe in it (the whole god made mortal and dying for your sins) then surely it must be THE most important thing in your life.. to actually KNOW that God exists and is trying to help you. So how can anyone REALLY be Christian and not practise? How can you have FAITH, but not BELIEVE? And if you believe, then how can you not go to church at every possible opportunity and spend hour after hour talking to your God?

There are people here who REALLY believe in Magick, and I want to understand what they believe in, not my own concoction of dragons and merlin.

I’d say that the reason this phenomena isn’t accepted or recognised is because you are talking about something which isn’t knowable through scientific process. ie. the process of repeatable testingIllmatic

Exactly! But after basing the whole of our society and culture on empirical analysis will we ever be capable of accepting something non-scientific as a ‘truth’ ? (I return to my point about Christianity just to further confuse matters!)

I think the only way I could is to speak to several people who have 1st hand experience of and can explain the phenomenon … err kind of like teachers do!

the struggles of acupuncture to gain scientific acceptanceIllmatic

Now I do have first hand experience of acupuncture, and over several sessions at differing times over the last 8 years or so I have had strong positive responses to the treatment, and the last time I went with a ‘real’ injury ( a knackered wrist) I found the treatment that I had once found relaxing and effective was now suddenly painful and ineffective – I guess it just doesn’t stand up to repeatable testing … but does that mean I should discount all the previous successes?

The motivation behind doing magick is probably as diverse as the branches of magick. Dances with Gophers

Are there very many? Are there too many? Have they developed from the splitting of schools of thought? Do they do the same/different things? Do they overlap? Do you need to know about all of them before any one begins to make sense? …

Does it matter, if it seem to work go with it.Dances with Gophers

I guess that’s like saying that you don’t need everyone on board a plane to be willing it to stay up in order for it to fly … but try getting them all to think about something else as an experiment and you’ll quickly find yourself being told to “f off” (by me at least .. but it’s a bugger to keep the big ones up when everyone else is asleep!)

you can't get much more mainstream than the *shivers* Celestine Prophecy for chrissake.sine

I must confess that I did start reading this, but coming to it from a background of Hancock and his idea of a Mexico/Egyptian common history. The Celestine Prophecy had me sat outside by the beach staring at plants for hours trying to find their little bubbles – if I looked at them the right way they did take on another aspect, but wasn’t that just me trying to see something that wasn’t there? .. oh and the Hancock thing? I eventually went to Egypt, researched, photographed, recorded – then went to Mexico for the same .. IMHO no similarity whatsoever. The things I do for peace of mind!

But have you ever willed someone to ring you? Did they ring? They did?! Golly. What a coincidence!olulabelle

As always you are insightful and fair, and oddly enough yes(ish). I’ve had that situation where you think about someone who you haven’t even thought of for years let alone spoken to, then BAM the phone rings and its them. I was shocked .. until I realised that we had both been listening to the same radio station and it had just been playing ‘our tune’ in the background while I was doing other things …. Is that still synchronicity?

You see, last night I dreamt about a huge rainbow and lots of rainbow coloured objects, Orange cups with strawberry coloured liquid in them and the like. Then I woke up, wrote it down, got up, came here and nearly fainted. Rainbows everywhere you look!olulabelle

Or did you happen to watch TV last night before you went to bed, and out of the corner of your attention see the latest skittles advert? It made an unconscious impact because it was surreal and in keeping with your normal mode of thinking. You didn’t really notice it, but you still dreamed about the rainbow of fruit flavours ….

And anyway, why do you need proof? You believe in love don't you? But where's your 'proof' of that? Show me the scientific evidence for the fact that you love someone...olulabelle

I can prove that love exists. I see all over the world that people have developed an empirical system for measuring love – its called marriage. By getting married you are declaring that you have love, and that it exists for you. In isolated cases this does not mount to sufficient evidence, but on the global scale that it exists it cannot be ignored ... or by proof do I need to hand you some love and let you feel it for yourself? After all you can’t see a molecule without the right equipment, but once that equipment has been made and you have been shown one .. you believe then right? .. .well you have to – you now have no choice .. It’s been “proven”

it's only magic when you don't know how they did it.mixmage

But is it still magic if they don’t know how they did it?

Anyways I’m not getting into another debate with mixmage (he’ll only win!)


Well that was a lot longer than I intended so I’ll slope off and see where Zen’s rant is …
 
 
admiraladz
11:42 / 01.04.04
err - apologies for the off topic but ...

October Ghost
17:26 / 28.03.04
Haus, the oversensitivity of your response is not unusual, but it isn't necessary. "You people", as in "those of you who have posted in this thread so far, in substitution for a list of your names," not "everybody in barbelith except me." Do I really need to clarify that? One would think that years of discussion here would determine whether or not you respect my opinion. It seems, from your comments here and elsewhere, you afford me exactly the same respect as any who don't share your opinion.


It seems that those who's voice is loudest among the throng are dealing with their own issues. Either you want people to be sensitive (as I was trying to acknowledge in a round-about way) or you don't .. make up your mind.
 
 
rising and revolving
23:49 / 01.04.04
Okie dokie admiral - you're obviously here to think about things, so apologies if I gave you a somewhat cool reception earlier - it can be hard to tell the trolls from the curious sometimes.

Let me throw something out for you (and I warn you, it's only a hodge-podge of thoughts) - the placebo effect is an actual, observable, effect. People get better faster and more reliably so long as they believe they're recieving treatment - even if that treatment is only sugar pills.

So, let's imagine for a moment that magic is a little like a placebo for the rest of your life. If you believe in a collection of benevolent deities who are looking out for your life, then your life will be "better" simply through belief. I realise there isn't necessarily a causal relationship here, but neither does it seem a completely insane leap to make.

Now, imagine if I tell you that by simply believing in a benevolent deity/deities/earth mother/life force/will/whatever for a couple of months, you'll have entered into an actual feedback relationship that improves your life. At that time, you can decide to keep going, or decide you've been fooling yourself all along and go back to "normal" life.

Well, it's only a couple of months, isn't it? Why *wouldn't* you give it a go? At the absolute worst you've spent a couple of months believing something silly - at best, you've applied a kind of "placebo for life" that makes the sunrise brighter, the world weirder and you more important within it.

Of course, this assumes that you can switch beliefs on and off - which is one of the skills that Chaos Magic, at the very least, tries to teach you.

As for which school and where to start - well, that depends on what props/tools/background suits you. They're all the same and they're all completely different - but read around and look for the one that sounds right to you. That makes the barrier for entry in terms of "belief" easier. Then give it a whirl and see how you go.
 
 
illmatic
12:51 / 02.04.04
I think there’s loads of great response in this thread, makes me love the forum, but I’m going to try and keep mine to the points we discussed. Pushed for time etc.

But after basing the whole of our society and culture on empirical analysis will we ever be capable of accepting something non-scientific as a ‘truth’ ?

Hmm… interesting point. I think that it’s a bit broad to say that our whole society is based on these values. There are plenty of other imperatives of a less “rational” nature that inform our society’s values and ideas about itself. But this is nit picking perhaps. I agree with you insofar as scientific process is commonly accepted as the arbiter of truth. I’d just say that I’ve accumulated personal evidence that I value and trust, and I’m favouring my subjective judgement more than the prevailing logic of our culture. I’ve had repeated results and that will do for me. It’s possible (seems unlikely to me, but it’s possible) that I’m deluding myself, but either way I’m generating a lot of insight and self-understanding on the way, so as long as I don’t start getting possessed on the bus or eating children, I’m happy.

I thought your experience with acupuncture was interesting on this score, as you’ve still put things down to your personal experience and judgement rather than say, checking out and accepting the scientific evidence about the field.

To stay with medicine for a sec, I would say that one of the reasons for the success of alternative medicine in it’s many forms is people are looking for something more “touchy feely” than medicine as it’s commonly practiced delivers. People want a warm bedside manner and human contact as much as they want surgical and pharmaceutical wizardry. To extend this to scientific process, science can certainly provide us with technological innovation, insight and even wonder, but can it deliver meaning and purpose in the same way, on a human scale? I’m not saying it can’t, I’m just throwing open the question. This is one reason that people turn to magick, religion etc.

My engagements with magick are part of an attempt to do this for myself, it’s part of the way I deal with the world and celebrate being alive. (I’d add I don’t think magick is the only thing that can do this (obviously) – an engagement with for instance culture and music, our relationships, our work, pretty much anything actually can do this for us).

In this sense, I think that getting trapped in the whole “does it/doesn’t it work” thing is a bit of a waste of time. If it does work, eventually you’ll have an experience that will convince, if it doesn’t you’ll get bored and move on. Perhaps ask instead is it something that I feel that I’m missing? Is their something here that I’d like to have in my life? The other drawback about the “proof” thing it’s encouraging you to frame or approach things in a certain way - it becomes very “can I get this or that?” (with the ubiquitous sigils, no doubt). I don’t think that there’s anything wrong with obtaining one’s desires, but to just focus on this sidesteps some important areas and questions. I get as much out of prayer, meditation, celebration and worship as I do out of sigils/results magick, if not more.

(maybe I'm just a bit crap at it, but that's another question)
 
 
Shanghai Quasar
19:37 / 02.04.04
Admiral Ladz: We have faith that our beliefs are the right ones, yes? I'd say that's about as far as you can go with anything. Just because you believe that, using your example, Christianity is right doesn't mean it needs to be an all-consuming lifestyle. It can be, but it doesn't have to be.

Why? The same reason that I don't always eat carrots when they're on the table, even though I believe they're good for me.

Understanding what people believe, well, that's another issue entirely. For my part, I believe that I'm bad at explaining what I believe. Cats, mice, the Universe, cheese.
 
 
admiraladz
16:07 / 03.04.04
Thank you all for being so open. It's odd, but after posting here I got the feeling that the magick forum would be the first one to tell me to get lost .. as it turns out it's the political side that seem to take my ideas as a personal affront .. mainly because that discipline seems to require that you know all the facts before you open your mouth!

There's been some really good points brought up, but as you've probably guessed I'm not the most concise of people and won't bore you with pouring over the details (but I will take the time to think on it all) - here's just a knee jerk reaction to your posts,but I find that my initial 'gut' response is usually closer to 'me' than if I think on it all for too long, get confused, and on ...


people are looking for something more “touchy feely” than medicine as it’s commonly practiced delivers. People want a warm bedside manner and human contact as much as they want surgical and pharmaceutical wizardry- Illmatic

When you put it like that - yeah. I think I have built up relationships with 'holistic' or 'alternative' therapists much faster than with my GP. I also listen to their advice more. I think that subconsciously I see this scenario:

A GP works their arse off to get thru med school. By the time they get there they are totally jaded by the whole thing or keen as mustard to help. But then (excuse the generalisation but this is my imagination) they get bogged down in the paperwork, they only get 5 minutes per patient, as a career it doesn't pay enough, there's too much to do and not enough time - is this the person that I am supposed to go to when I feel ill? Someone who barely has enough time to look down my throat before writing the prescription for a drug I've never heard of and only know will 'make you feel better' .... now enter the holistic/alternative/whatever - they ask you what is wrong, then they listen, then they make suggestions, you debate, they make further suggestions, and all this time they are in physical contact - taking pulse, feeling auras whatever the hell they do, but by the end of the session (anywhere up to an hour) you come away feeling 'better' than when you went in, not leaving the GP on your way to get something from the chemist that will make you feel 'better'.

..why is that?

and why do they do it - I mean they must get fed up with all the people who tell them its a crock of shit.

Maybe it's linked to ...
. I get as much out of prayer, meditation, celebration and worship as I do out of sigils/results magick, if not more.


So is magick a religion as well? does that mean you couldn't be say .. a jewish Chaos Magician? (sorry if that really doesn't make sense but chrysalis mentioned chaos magic)


Just because you believe that, using your example, Christianity is right doesn't mean it needs to be an all-consuming lifestyle. It can be, but it doesn't have to be.
The same reason that I don't always eat carrots when they're on the table, even though I believe they're good for me-Shanghai Quasar

I think where I fall down is as simple as the definition of 'believe'.

Of course, this assumes that you can switch beliefs on and off - which is one of the skills that Chaos Magic, at the very least, tries to teach you.- chyrsalis

It all comes back to my Christianity quandry - if people believe something (and I mean REALLY believe) then how can they turn that on and off - and if they don't believe but pretend to themselves that they do ... then I don't understand - why would you want to fool yourself? I'm afraid that for me it is a binary system - 1 or 0 - maybe that's why I just don't get it (?)
 
 
pony
17:06 / 03.04.04
"The l33t was just to see if anyone cared about WHAT I was saying as opposed to HOW I was saying it."

not to be a dick or anything, cuz i'm new here too, but the above statement doesn't actually make any sense, logically (or otherwise). putting up with obnoxiousness doesn't mean that people care about what you're saying at all, it means that they have a high tolerance for obnoxiousness.
 
 
illmatic
17:51 / 03.04.04
To answer you last question first - I asked a Christian friend of my mum's this many years ago when I was in my teens, it was something along the lines of "why don't you go to Africa and do aid work, if you're a Christian?". She said simply "I'm not stong enoughh". What I took from this is that there are variations in faith, variations in strnegth of belief and variations in the motivation that this will grant you - these things are less like solid building blocks (that empower you to do everything) than they are mutable relationships. Perhaps less emphasis on the binary might help you get it.

As to your other question, my own practice and beliefs have a lot of common ground with religon. They're certainly in the same area anyway, some of the time, asking some of the same questions, I've just got a personal approach at getting the answers. But that's me, and others appraoches will be different. Most magickal writers worth their salt seem to get into relgious areas anyway, I don't know if it's even valuable to make a big distinction - take a look at Crowley for example.

I don't see why Judaism and Choas magick would necessairily be in conflict. After all, Judaic concepts such as they qabalah have been hugely influential on the Western Mystery/Magical traditon. Depends on how much thuis hpothetical person valued their judaism, I suppose. It's a weird one anyway, because Judaims is one of those faiths that cross over into ethinc identity.
 
 
Wanderer
18:51 / 03.04.04
the only possible conflict I see between chaos magick and religion is that chaos magick seems like it requires, like someone said earlier, switching belief on and off at will. It strikes me as essentially a postmodern belief because it buys into the idea that no belief is subjective or really "true", but that belief is rather a useful tool. However, another paradigm is that of "whatever works for you", so i suppose its possible for you to adapt chaos magick to preexisting beliefs (like judaism) or have different layers of belief a la vodoun where there are the assorted dieties that you have contact with and then above them another, all-pervasive god or over-god. As to religion and other systems of magick, I see some systems (Crowley) as open to religions other than their dogma, though many thelemites would probably disagree with me. On the other hand, i see other systems (wicca) as being more dogmatic as far as who you believe in and how belief is treated. My advice to you if that is one of your worries is to follow the chaos magick path: construct your own system, try a bunch of stuff and keep what works for you.
 
 
ghadis
21:53 / 03.04.04
It seems like EVERY BELIEF is fluid belief.The idea of Chaos Magick having some sort of monopoly on 'taking a bit from here...a bit from there' is nonsenseical. That is what beliefs/religions/ideas do!. That is the very nature of ideas...They grow and move and they interact and spread and etc etc etc...and so on...

So one way of thinking about 'Chaos Magick' is that it's really postmodern because it frees us from the tyranny of Dogma by telling us about what we are 'meant to be doing' but also 'how we can tell what we shouldn't be doing so we can acknowledge how we shouldn't be doing it...etc etc..'
 
 
ghadis
22:06 / 03.04.04
and then do it....
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
18:36 / 04.04.04
The l33t was just to see if anyone cared about WHAT I was saying as opposed to HOW I was saying it.

A resonable desire. But wouldn't a better approach have been to phrase your message in the simplest way possible? Adding complexity throws dust in the eyes of those who might be genuinely interested in your content rather that your style; simplicity throws dust in the eyes of thos who favour style over content.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
21:54 / 04.04.04
the only possible conflict I see between chaos magick and religion is that chaos magick seems like it requires, like someone said earlier, switching belief on and off at will.

I think this is quite an interesting point. From my perspective, when I started practising magic seriously I was very influenced by this sort of thing and bought into the whole 'paradigm swapping' and 'maleability of belief' stuff. But after a while I came to question my own attachment to this meta-belief, for instance, was I only hanging on to this fly-by-night pop psychology approach because it's less scarier than actually investing belief and faith and commitment towards something.

I think that there's a point where the notion of "nothing is true, everything is permitted" becomes like a pair of golden handcuffs. Chaos magic positions itself as a kind of meta-paradigm - but it's really just another type of paradigm with its own specific limitations.

I really don't have much time for the belief shifting stuff these days, and think its one of those ideas that could really benefit from a bit of unpacking. It almost seems that some peoples motivation in this is just to try and keep their sigil and servitor work fresh and interesting by importing a new ethnic window dressing into their system every few months. I personally find that this can be a big obstacle if your trying to get a decent understanding of the depth and power of the traditions that you're effectively dipping your toe into, and the best way to appreciate this stuff is to emerse yourself fully within it - whatever that might entail. And if that means completely abandoning your 'chaote' belief that 'nothing is true', then to my mind, that's much more in the spirit of things than being really precious about hanging on to the popular 'it's all just a paradigm' safety net.

What I practice now is more akin to religion than anything else - a religion that utilises magic - but a religion primarily. And I try to make my beliefs within that broad enough to accomodate and be inclusive of all other notions and concepts that make sense to me or that I consider to be useful models for trying to approach an understanding of life, the universe and everything. I'm interested in developing a personal synthesis of the various ways of looking at things that strike a chord with me, rather than chopping and changing between them as if they exist in seperate bubbles from eachother.
 
 
Dances with Gophers
20:45 / 05.04.04
Are there very many? Are there too many? Have they developed from the splitting of schools of thought? Do they do the same/different things? Do they overlap? Do you need to know about all of them before any one begins to make sense?

Different cultures, societies etc have/had their own ways of doing things, mostly it's in the details. There is a hell of a lot of overlap, personally I think there are a handfull of basic systems that have been modified to suit particular cultures and environments.
You don't have to know all of them, you may be drawn to one in particular or have an affinity with a particular culture and have a desire to investigate the system(s) they have.You don't have to know the Tarot, the cabalah etc to do Druidic magic, however you may find that a knowledge of those systems helps. The 'Elements of ...' series, by the publisher Element, is worth looking at.
In the past I've had strings of synchronicities that have taken down interesting magical paths,it's a case of I know I may be deluding myself but what the hell. (This is not to say I would jump into the hands of Cthulu just because a Lovecraft book fell off the shelf at my feet)


Sort of brings me back to; I guess that’s like saying that you don’t need everyone on board a plane to be willing it to stay up in order for it to fly … but try getting them all to think about something else as an experiment and you’ll quickly find yourself being told to “f off” (by me at least .. but it’s a bugger to keep the big ones up when everyone else is asleep!) Yeah I always get religous on aircraft! To hijack your analogy (pardon the tasteless pun) you don't need to know the about aerodynamics to get into a plane, you just need to know that it flys. To be a pilot you need to know aerodynamics and a bit about the engines but you don't need to know the make of the fuel pump. Or to use a sculpting analogy, you could create a figure by carving solidified Miliput, or by shaping the putty before it dries, if it works go with it.

Good luck exploring
 
 
Z. deScathach
03:36 / 06.04.04
admiraladz: i guess people desire something mystical, something different to break the dreary monotony of everyday life, but it's like selling ice to eskimos (or do i have to say innuits?)... because here we are wandering around in a world of wonderful adventure. a work of creation. So why should we enter the fortune-teller's tent or the backyards of academe in search of something exciting or transcendental?

Well, I can only speak for myself, although I suspect that my reason may be shared by others. Very simply, "because it feels good." I suspect that is why MANY people do a given thing. Whether it's a question of providing a sense of wonder, a feeling of power, or the plain old joy of being able to say, "S**T THAT WAS WEIRD!", that is why I do it. I remember walking through a Walmart parking lot, (certainly one of the most soul-killing places on Earth), after a particularly taxing meditational/magickal working. All of a sudden, this sheer pleasure went cascading through me. It was better....than any.... sex..... I've ever had, and I've had good sex...... At that one moment, that Walmart parking lot was every bit as magickal as ANY place that I've ever been. That's why I do it. It feels good. It makes ME feel good. Another thing that feels good to some people is exploration. Some folks are insatiably curious, (I figure myself to be that way). It feels good to explore. What area is more vast than the mind? It's just fascinating! It feels good! So, I suspect that there will always people who are pushing that frontier. There will also be those that don't, and that is OK, too. The world as wonderful adventure? Magickal practice is just part of that adventure. We all go on different adventures and I'm willing to bet that we go on them because they make us feel good, (or we think that they will).
 
  
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