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Race and Biology

 
 
Phex: Dorset Doom
17:37 / 26.03.04
Hey there.
I'm in the process of researching for an essay on Postmodernism and race in America and, long story short, I'm looking for any hard scientific type facts concerning the lack of a biological basis for race. Any links would be appreciated.
 
 
ibis the being
17:50 / 26.03.04
Well, according to this Scientific American article, there IS a biological basis for race. It's very minor, but it does exist. So, I don't know, maybe revise your thesis?
 
 
sdv (non-human)
20:03 / 26.03.04
No there isn't - we are at best animals.

Since Darwin taught us that we along with all other species are mere assemblages of genes, interacting with one another and there environments, it is equally true that SPECIES do not exist. This applies to both 'human beings' and 'george the cat'.

The idiots in scientific american simply choose to ignore this fact in an attempt to create a heirarchy rather than accept difference.
 
 
sleazenation
20:17 / 26.03.04
Taxonomy is a set of ever shifting sands. However it does not preclude the view that we are all the stuff of the same genes, it simply hold its focus elsewhere.
 
 
sdv (non-human)
20:19 / 26.03.04
phex - sorry forgot to suggest...

Get a copy of Couze Venn's 'Occidentalism' (sage). Nikolas Rose 'The Psychological Complex is a study in related matters ad the arguments will be usable. I'm pretty sure that Ian Hacking has written on this but can't remember where....
 
 
Phex: Dorset Doom
21:29 / 26.03.04
I wish I could but this little essay thing has to be in on friday. I'm just looking for a quick-fix quote or an online article I can cite.
 
 
sdv (non-human)
15:05 / 28.03.04
phex - ah sorry about that, I looked around and found a whole range of other interestinf material...

next time
 
 
Jub
12:32 / 30.03.04
The article on Duster that ibis linked to, doesn't say there is a genetic basis for race. It initmates there is to make you keep reading, but it doesn't actually say it, and nor does Mr Duster. What it *does* say is that there is a difference gentically in racial characteristics, such that forensics experts would be able to tell the difference between certain stereotypical race types, within specific parameters. Duster's point is that we must be careful in how we implement these procedures to make sure we do not perpetuate these stereotypes.

Of course there is a genetic difference between a black person and a white person, just as there is genetic difference between every single one of us - and of course these differences will be localised such that certain patterns might emerge which show that if so and so a gene is x then the subject is likely to have dark/light skin... the point is that this does NOT equate to a racial basis for race. There is no cut off point, no boundaries, (definitely no "purity"); there are degrees of certain traits, which historically have been localised to certain geographical areas.

Anyway - Alan Goodman explains it all...
 
 
Mirror
15:02 / 30.03.04
Just out of curiosity, why should it matter if there is a genetic basis for race? It seems obvious that there is at least some degree of genetic homogeneity in specific populations. Tracing genetic markers through populations is, after all, how scientists have managed to build a model of the prehistoric global dispersion of humans.

Suggesting that there is nothing that that biologically differentiates people of different races strikes me as being intellectually dishonest, however politically correct it may be. The same thing goes for species, but there the line is even more clearly drawn - animals are of separate species when they cannot have fertile offspring.

What is/was the thesis of your paper? If it is that there is no scientific basis for racial distinctions, you seem to be begging the question a bit.
 
 
grant
16:04 / 30.03.04
According to this Wikipedia article on Race, the problem is that "race" isn't a very scientific way to break a population down for study.

The "populationist" view does not deny that there are physical differences among people; it simply insists that "race" is not useful in analyzing these differences scientifically. Take one of the most obvious physical markers of race, for example – skin color. It is true that the color of people's skin varies. It does not vary according to culture. All people whose ancestors lived in the tropics -- whether in South America, Africa, or Asia, have dark skin. This is because the tropics receive a lot of sunlight, and people with light skin would suffer from excess vitamin D levels; they can sunburn too easily, are more susceptible to disease, and less efficient at sweating. Dark skin is more advantageous. Light skin is found in temperate zones, where it prevented rickets due to inadequate vitamin D. But skin is only one phenotypic trait. Many things play a role in skin color -- exposure to sunlight, ultraviolet radiation, amount of clothing. Many traits are determined by non-genetic factors (as Boas' study of height showed). Moreover, specific traits are not necessarily connected to one another – biological traits such as skin color, hair type, and facial features do not vary together. Finally, the natural distribution of human phenotypes exhibits gradual trends of difference across geographic zones, not the categorical differences of race. Consequently, there are many peoples (like the San of S. W. Africa, or the people of northern India) who have phenotypes that do not neatly fit into the standard race categories. In short, attempts to construct biological racial classifications have been largely overthrown because genetic and phenotypic traits do not vary together over time.

I found the article because I was looking up something on the KhoiSan... the Bushmen of the Kalahari. See, I remember an uncle of mine (a South African, but of the decent, crazy sort) telling me that the Bushmen should be classified as a different subspecies because they had a different number of bones in their skull. I think it was the cranial bones that fuse together sometime in infancy. Anyway, I can't find squat on this online as yet.

Closest is this thing on spine anatomy:

Racial differences: the human sacrum is characterized by its great breadth in comparison to its length. The proportion is expressed by the following equation: sacral index = breadth x 100/ length. The average sacral index in British males is 112; in the female, 116. Sacra in which the index is above 100 are platyhieric, as in Europeans, Negroes, Polynesians; those under 100 are dolichohieric, as in Australians, Bushmen, Andamanese (Turner, 1886).

I keep running into sites debunking Darwin, and they're drowning out what I want.
 
 
glycerine
02:14 / 31.03.04
Jared Diamond in "the third chimpanzee" had some interesting comments on race and such.
 
 
Jub
09:04 / 31.03.04
why should it matter if there is a genetic basis for race?

Mirror: Why should it matter? It's a moot point, because there isn't. That's like saying, "why should it matter that the US has 75 states?"

With you on the gentic markers and yes, that's been a significant factor in determining human movement across the globe in specific groups of people. That doesn't mean there is a genetic basis for race though, and this was what Phex's question was about.

Suggesting that there is nothing that that biologically differentiates people of different races strikes me as being intellectually dishonest, however politically correct it may be.

No-one's suggested that. Not here at least. As I said in my previous post, of course there is a genetic difference between people of different races, but only insofar as they have different genetic makeups. There is no dividing line between the races genetically. So far so good.

The same thing goes for species, but there the line is even more clearly drawn - animals are of separate species when they cannot have fertile offspring.

Right - even more clearly drawn between the species? If I didn't know better Mirror, I'd think you were claiming that there was a genetic divide between humans which fitted neatly into the perceived cultural definition of race. This is not the case. There are certain differences true - but only in so far as people's ancestors were a localised group, and probably not enough to claim it as a race - in the broad sense of the term.

For example The Bushman of the Kalahari to use Grant's example, seem to have developed certain localised characteristics, but this doesn't equate to "race" in the way we use the word in today's society. I think that it's more helpful describing the !Kung for example as a tribe, not a race. If you were to have a !Kung and an Ethopian - one might say they were both black (concerning their race) - but the fact is the genetic varience involved would show that the Ethiopian was more closely related to the average European than the !Kung.

Perhaps the best example I can think of, of a specific trait in a localised population is the amazing long distance running ability of certain inhabitants of villages in a small area of Kenya. Most of the men in these villages can run as fast (if not faster) than the average world ranking athletes in long distance events. This does not equate to race though!

No-one is arguing race doesn't exist, just that there is no genetic basis for it.
 
 
sdv (non-human)
17:26 / 31.03.04
Not sure about this discussion - not only is there a nostalgia for 'race' which is unforgivable, but bizarrely there is a belief that in some sense a 'human species' exists. The latter notion does not in any real sense survive Darwin, Genetics and evolution - so why should the even more ludicrous idea of 'race' survive ?

What is the purpose of race ? What is the purpose of species ?
 
 
Mirror
17:44 / 31.03.04
I guess that in the context of this thread "races" are much broader than I usually consider them. For example, I wasn't considering "black" a race - instead something like "Australian Aboriginal" or "Pacific islander" or "Ethiopian."

Of course I agree that if your racial categories are black, brown, yellow, and pink there will be no uniform genetic trait which can be used to distinguish members of the group, with the possible exception of whichever genes are responsible for regulating the production of dermal melanin.
 
 
Mirror
17:53 / 31.03.04
SDV, can you elaborate on how "a belief that in some sense a 'human species' exists ... does not in any real sense survive Darwin, Genetics and evolution?"

This link seems to indicate that there is indeed a human species, Homo Sapiens, to the subspecies of which, Homo Sapiens Sapiens all modern humans belong.

Or are you using some other definition of "species" than the taxonomic one?
 
 
sdv (non-human)
20:16 / 31.03.04
Mirror - i'm referring to the post-evolutionary philosophical and scientific position which argues that since Darwin teaches us that a specis is merely an assemblage of genes, which interact with each other and their environments.

Incidentally the references to skin pigmentation and color earlier seem like a soft Lamarckian idea - which argues that a "...biota adapted to their environments and such adapted characteristics were passed on by heredity..." This is nonsense - but has been popular as an explanation of racial differences since 1809...

The subsequent point of the position is that species do not and cannot control their destinies. This is because the ultimate logic is that species do not exist. (John Gray argues this nicely in Straw Dogs - one of the better anti-humanist books of the last few years). It is a mere human phantasy to imagine that 'we' have a unique (intellectually unfounded) ability to function collectively as a species. The truth appears to be that the phantasy that we are a species, and using this rationale can deny legal rights to non-humans, is simply not going to be sustainable for very much longer.
Whilst the latter half can be argued over what cannot is the genes that wash our animal bodies - the difference between george the cat and I is much smaller than humanists imagine.
 
 
sdv (non-human)
20:29 / 31.03.04
let me add 5 implicit critiques of the humanism you are accepting:

1. Primatology has heaped up examples of how similar to humans Apes are, to the extent that it seems unlikely now that a xenologist from Rigel 5 could differentiate a human from a chimpanzee.
2. The animal rights movement has been very successful in challenging us to identify what entitles humans to priviliged treatment over other animals.
3. The moral and ethical implications of the self-definition of human beings is not seperable from the issue of how far back the human lineage goes back. (The lineage has in effect become irrelevant...)
4. With advances in biology it's become clear that the arguments that a species exists as a defined entity - a species as a natural set with universal traits rather than merely a category, a set into whch we group creatures/groups for convenience. There are no known uniquly human features.
5. Genetics appears in theory to enable us to measure what it is to be human - to identify membershp of the genus. But it isn't that convincing for it also allows us to see how un-unique we are. We are not after all divine merely protoplasm.

(derived in part from Feenandez-Armesto 'so you think you are human?')
 
 
sdv (non-human)
20:34 / 31.03.04
texts...

H.E. Augstein - Race: the origins of an idea 1760-1850
N.L. Stepan The idea of race in science (1980)
L. Uper - Race science and society (1975)
and
G. Strocking Race, culture and evolution (1968)

are all if memory serves me well good texts on tese issues.
 
 
Mirror
21:35 / 01.04.04
So the argument is that a species is in fact merely an assemblage of genes, rather than the collected organisms that express a common assemblage?

If species is a myth, it is only a myth on a geologic time scale. While this is an interesting idea, I don't find it particularly useful or enlightening. At the scale of the individual organism and that organism's reproductive potential, species is, as I mentioned before, rather well defined - organisms are of the same species if they can mate and produce fertile offspring.

I don't quite follow you on your comment on skin pigmentation - has there been a refutation of the theory that humans who historically lived at high latitudes evolved to express a reduced level of dermal melanin so that they did not suffer Vitamin D deficiency due to the lack of sun exposure caused by having to wear clothing?
 
 
Tricia
03:22 / 03.04.04
Yes and no.

There is a fraction of a percent of genetic difference between all people. These are called single nucleotide polymorphisms. These don't necessarily fall out on any hierarchical lines, and are due to any kind of selective advantage. They just exist because the mecahnism by which DNA replicates can sometimes err. They are not harmful and do not cause death or any other kind of disadvantage.

Some of these fall along racial lines mostly because of environment, for instance black people are more likely to get sickle cell anemia, asian people are missing an enzyme. These genetic differences are not restricted to any race but predominate because of genetic drift and isolation. The amount of differences that exist within a population are a hallmark of it's strength and diversity. Lack of variation means that

Here are a bunch of resources for the layperson:

Richard Lewontin is a population geneticist and marxist. He is the most polemic of studies of human diversity and he is critical of the way that biology has been used as a political and social vehicle in the past. Human diversity is the best book for your project but 'biology as ideology' and 'the dilectical biologist' are equally good. All books are a bit polemic which is a good and a bad thing.

'The mismeasure of man' by Stephen Jay Gould is kickass. Gould basically trashes the wave of evil mother that wrote the bell curve. And does it in the most beautiful language. He really has both integrity and enthusiasm in science.

And I can't remember the authors name but 'the emporer's new clothes' is written by a pop geneticist in U of Arizona. If this is for a paper, not a thesis then the book alone should give you enough refs to go on.

The cartoon guide to Genetics is always fun and will give you a good foundation for the technical terminology.

If your school has a science faculty then you probably have access to their journal subscriptions. Let me know if you need links to the hard scientific papers.

And I don't want to be critical but it makes me sad as a scientist to see people spouting off opinions on something objective which they have little knowledge on.
 
 
Mirror
17:41 / 04.04.04
Some of these fall along racial lines mostly because of environment, for instance black people are more likely to get sickle cell anemia, asian people are missing an enzyme.

According to this article there is some indication that the genetic defect that causes sickle-cell anemia is related to an adaptation that reduces suceptibility to the malaria parasite.

They just exist because the mecahnism by which DNA replicates can sometimes err. They are not harmful and do not cause death or any other kind of disadvantage.

Perhaps not in modern society, but in prehistory there was almost definitely selective advantage to many of the racial polymorphisms we see. Taking skin tone alone, how do you explain the strong correlation between skin pigmentation and latitude?

According to Esteban Parra, an anthropology professor at the University of Texas:

"It is generally believed that having dark pigmentation is advantageous in environments with high ultraviolet radiation (UVR) because melanin protects against skin cancer and sunburn as well as folate destruction," he says. A lack of folate can result in fetal defects and male infertility.

When modern humans began to migrate from Africa to regions far from the equator around 60,000 years ago, they no longer needed the protection of melanin. On the contrary, having dark skin in environments with low UVR was probably a disadvantage because too much melanin interferes with the production of Vitamin D which is important for bone and teeth growth.


I am not a biologist; my education is in geology and I work in computer science. However, I'm not just talking out my ass here. In claiming that there is no such thing as species, or there is are no selective advantages to the genetic variations that exists in the human species, you are going up against a lot of pretty good evidence. This is not to say that these ideas are unassailable - far from it; however, the burden of providing strong evidence for the refutation is upon the challenger. As a scientist, I expect you understand that.
 
  
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