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Religion in the Head Shop

  
  

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Tom Coates
11:17 / 25.03.04
I've let it go for a while now, because it's been fairly low-key, but I've noticed that most of the top five topics in the forum at the moment are currently concerned with it and that worries me a little bit. Basically the question is whether or not religious topics or topics about religion should be in the Head Shop when we have a forum that's supposed to be dedicated to the discussion of religion, ritual and magick. Is the Magick too much of a ghetto for these kinds of conversations to fit into it? Do we need to rebrand the Head Shop a bit (I'd rather we didn't). Is this a symptom of the mainstreaming of Barbelith...
 
 
Baz Auckland
11:24 / 25.03.04
...I always saw the Magick forum as being just magick, and religious topics fitting in to the philosophy section of the Head Shop. Has there ever been religious discussion in the Magick forum? (like that currently in the Head Shop)
 
 
Sax
11:32 / 25.03.04
Why not rebrand the magick forum to be more all-encompassing. Maybe "Spirituality" or "Beards'n'Sandals" or something? Or would the Ancient Ones not like that? Must admit, the Head Shop is getting a bit godly. Anyone would think it's nearly Easter or something.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
11:49 / 25.03.04
It's really one of those crossover topics that fits in to a number of places. If it's a discussion that purely centres on religion than it should probably go in the magick forum but if it's more philosophical than that we have a problem. After all religious debate and questions of existence are at the heart of philosophy (personally I like to blame Kant for this but then I like to blame Kant for a lot of things that probably aren't anything to do with him).

Personally I'd keep The concept of divinity as conceived by the mainstream Christian church in Head Shop because the discussion leans philosophically. I'd do the same with Choosing A Spiritual Path - The Hows and Whys because it seems to be a thread on choice and existence but I'd move Christianity as a hollow spiritual experience and Christians Wrong From The Starting Line? because both threads are really based entirely around religion.

If we want Magick to be automatically recognised as a forum that includes threads on organised religion than it might need to be renamed.
 
 
Tom Coates
12:04 / 25.03.04
I think the problem we have with the Magick is that it really is almost used exclusively for discussions about Chaos Magick, which isn't a bad thing - I'm delighted that we can host such a vibrant community - but that wasn't initially what it was supposed to be for. Personally I'd like to keep most religion out of the Head Shop - the kinds of discussions that you end up having w/r/t Philosophy and Religion end up being inevitably trivial, "Is there a God, etc" and to be honest I think anyone who has an inquiring mind has had those conversations a dozen times by the time they reach 18. There's also an approach to talking about Christianity that doesn't like to lump it in with all the rather more obviously way-out cultural practices like Wicca and thinks that it's somehow 'more' than that. Personally I'm not convinced again, but then I view them all as superstitious nonsense where others think religion is a matter for serious adult discussion. So - basically - I'm torn.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
12:17 / 25.03.04
Surely the problem is that at least 2 of those threads are needless. Even if we're generous and say that ajm's thread was a valid spin-off from the general thread on religion, I don't see any need for Multiple Man's additional thread, which I'd move to be merged if we had that feature...
 
 
illmatic
12:31 / 25.03.04
Hmmm... well, i certainly would be up for more general religous discussions in The Magick (anything to get the focus off sigils), I thought the topics mentioned sat rather well in Headshop as they were both quite philosophical . I thought the one on "Choosing a Spritual Path" might have been better in The Magick as it was more focused around personal experience, and I tend to see the Magick as more experiential than Headshop. This might be something I'm mapping into though. There have been a couple of stonking theory based threads there lately, ("Gender Specfic Magick" and "Wounded Healers"). Having said that, sad as I am to say it, I suspect that leaving something in Headshop generates a better standard of discussion. A lot of the posters I rate on this site don't seem to post there very much.

So, I'm undecided really...not much help.
 
 
.
13:02 / 25.03.04
Well, philosophy and religion *are* inextricably linked, so to my mind it makes sense to put them both in the same forum. The threads about Christianity may not be to everyone's taste (seemingly "trivial"), but as long as they're still subject to the "Headshop process", ie. examination through methodical argument, why take them elsewhere? After all, more marginal subjects have found room for discussion there.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
13:10 / 25.03.04
Personally I wouldn't exclude topics on religion from the Head Shop, but agree with Anna that they should be the ones that consider religion from a philosphical/existential standpoint. To me, those *belong* in the Head Shop. (but, admittedly, don't fit under the current subtitle if that's an indicator of what's expected from the HS)

Topics on people's personal paths, faith, choices and decisions already go in the Magick in the main, as far as i can see, it's just that they're generally not relation to 'organised religion', but to more 'esoteric' faiths/paths. (apologies for scare quotes, am flailing here)

Imagine that some people don't neccessarily immediately connect questions of say, Christianity with Magic. So maybe its a question of explictly pointing out that this stuff is part of the magic. Something on 'Religions' in the Magick subheader.

That said, the discussion that grew up out of the 'hollow experience' thread. is Headshop material, IMO, and demonstrates alot of what's great about the HS.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:11 / 25.03.04
Choosing aspiritual path I would put in the Magick or the Conversation, as it is not really a discussion thread but a thread in which people talk about their own experiences and spirituality. I agree that the problem at the moment is that people are multiplying threads needlessly, and also that people are not using the thread titles and thread summaries as they should be used. I am quite happy to start moderating those problems out, but in looking at them we should probably consider the issues of dealing with the influx from Google, which will cause broader issues that the Head Shop in particular is going to have to know how to deal with.
 
 
diz
13:28 / 25.03.04
Imagine that some people don't neccessarily immediately connect questions of say, Christianity with Magic.

i think this is key. i think saying that "Christianity" gets filed under "Magick" is a pretty loaded position, philosopically, politically, theologically, etc. in the end, it's a position that i would be inclined to agree with, personally, but it seems like something that should generally be actively contested in some way, i suppose.

That said, the discussion that grew up out of the 'hollow experience' thread. is Headshop material, IMO, and demonstrates alot of what's great about the HS.

i'll take your word for it. i was reading it for a bit closer to the beginning and it was pretty depressing.

however, i don't know if the some of the other current religion threads belong in the Head Shop either. i mostly lurk there, but it's always seemed geared towards PoMo gender theory type stuff, and, to be frank, it's been kind of irritating to see it swamped with the threads that have been active recently. the "Choosing A Spiritual Path - The Hows and Whys" thread, as one example, definitely seems like it should be in Magick, not the Head Shop.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
13:35 / 25.03.04
re christianity and magick: v.true. 'Magick and Sprituality'? covers both, and maybe moves the emphasis away from Chaos Magick?

Maybe, in anticipation of more new users finding this place via google, taking the Chaos thing off the subheader completely?

AFAIK, it's there due to the Invisibles connection, which isn't really relevant anymore, and I doubt removing it will kill all conversation about CM.(however much Illmatic wanks) I'm not a magic regular, but as it stands, the forum header seems to unneccessarily focus on very specific schools of magic.

(re 'hollow experience', it's not the original questions so much as what happens when a bunch of singuarly well-informed believers and nonbelievers start discussing Christian doctrine/plurality.)
 
 
illmatic
13:45 / 25.03.04
we should probably consider the issues of dealing with the influx from Google

Agreed. Haven't much to add yet pushed for time today, but it's defintely worth noting/discussing
 
 
Lurid Archive
13:52 / 25.03.04
I don't think the scope of each forum needs to be strictly delineated and a certain amount of overlap doesn't seem terrible to me. I'd have thought that the difference between fora is as much to do with style as with content.
 
 
Pingle!Pop
13:55 / 25.03.04
i think this is key. i think saying that "Christianity" gets filed under "Magick" is a pretty loaded position, philosopically, politically, theologically, etc. in the end, it's a position that i would be inclined to agree with, personally, but it seems like something that should generally be actively contested in some way, i suppose.

Is that really a particularly loaded position, one which should be contested? I can't claim to have any spiritual beliefs whatsoever, but the only reason I can see why Christianity shouldn't be put in the same category as other threads discussing spiritual matters is simply that the forum title is "Magick" and that, well, Christians don't call their religion "magick".

So surely the actual reason for considering Christianity et al as exceptions is the fact that its advocates don't "like to lump it in with all the rather more obviously way-out cultural practices like Wicca and thinks that it's somehow 'more' than that", as Tom says. Basically, that followers of Christianity are too precious to consider associating with those weirdo nutcase freaks that practice chaos magick and so forth. Or is it that followers of less culturually-ubiquitous spiritual paths are too precious to consider assocating with those brainwashed, narrow-minded numbskulls who simply accept the easy option of Christianity?
 
 
diz
14:05 / 25.03.04
the only reason I can see why Christianity shouldn't be put in the same category as other threads discussing spiritual matters is simply that the forum title is "Magick" and that, well, Christians don't call their religion "magick".

well, that's the primary reason i see, and i think it's important. i think bengali in platforms' suggestion of changing it to Magick and Spirituality is an ideal solution, personally.
 
 
Lurid Archive
14:15 / 25.03.04
Well, I think that discussing any religion in the Magick is going to highlight different aspects than if it were discussed in the Headshop. This is neither good nor bad, but serves to frame the discussion.
 
 
Tom Coates
14:19 / 25.03.04
Ok - consider that done.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
14:21 / 25.03.04
yep, and that's where the 'useful crossover' comes in, and why I wouldn't reject threads on religion in the HS on principle. There are, IMO, threads relating to, for example, Christianity, that belong in the HS/seek HS 'treatment'. And ones that are more Magick-ish.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
14:24 / 25.03.04
oops. that in response to LA.
 
 
diz
14:43 / 25.03.04
no, there are definitely subjects relating to religion that are properly addressed in the Head Shop, but i think most of the "spiritual" ones (loosely understood as ones relating to personal fulfillment or the soul or higher states of consciousness or whatever) belong in Magick and Spirituality or Conversation.

also, i think it's worth getting back to the issue of thread multiplication. i think that a lot of topics on spirituality and the value or lack thereof tend to wander around and bleed over into each other, and that i think it would be best if we didn't get into the habit of starting a new thread everytime that sort of thing happens. this is especially true in the context of the influx of new posters, who should not be allowed to develop bad habits with regard to flooding either the Head Shop or Magick and Spirituality with redundant topics.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
15:23 / 25.03.04
That said, the discussion that grew up out of the 'hollow experience' thread. is Headshop material, IMO, and demonstrates alot of what's great about the HS.

I think that you're suggesting that because it's a very in depth discussion and holds an argumentative tone but really it's simply discussing the specifics of our religious definitions. While being analytical it's not necessarily 'cultural' in the narrower sense (though in a broader sense it could be in that it is discussing a cultural phenomenon) and it's certainly not a dicussion that's grown out of specific philosophy. So why is it HS material?

Likewise our process of choosing a spiritual path is really a very 'cultural studies' orientated discussion. It seems that we're defining HS by the quality of response in a thread rather than the definition of the thread itself and that's fair but should probably be recognised rather than simply practised. Thus I have two questions- are we generally happy with this? Actually I am but I do think we should analyse our intent wrt the way me treat threads there and is this actually our unwritten rule of thumb for moving threads around the fora?
 
 
Hieronymus
15:27 / 25.03.04
Maybe I'm alone here but it's the recent glut of them (religious threads), a constant stream of threads sprouting from prior threads, that's getting to be a bit of an exercise in dead horse flogging. To me anyway. It is starting to look like a bit much, even though they're all topics that deserve discussion. But they're topics that could easily be tackled in a decently encompassing umbrella thread.

Then again, we always drop 'maybe this off-topic segue is better off in its own separate thread' enough that it may be a good thing someone is actively doing such.

Clearly after reading the above, I haven't entirely woken up yet.
 
 
cusm
15:32 / 25.03.04
Here's how I cut it:

The Magick:

Mystical experiences, techniques in the practice, spiritual insights, interpretations of scripture that support theories that George Bush is really the Anti-Christ. Research and historical matters. More generally the actual nuts and bolts of the practice itself, and personal experiences with it.

The Headshop:

Social, political, philosophical effects of the practice. Ethical/moral choices and their grounding and effects. Specific questions or theories related to or caused by the practice. The practice in a general outward form, or a particular personal detail in how an aspect of it affects others.

The Conversation:

Most general discussion on the topic, personal opinions, shouting, bashing, whining, and all that.

So, if I want to talk about how a particular prayer caused a measurable change in my life, I'd post in The Magick. A question on why people pray in the first place is good Headshop material. Attempting to convince the masses that you all should embrace Jesus can go in the Conversation.

Really, its a matter of what aspect or focus the thread is on, not the topic.
 
 
diz
15:41 / 25.03.04
wow. go cusm. that's perfect.
 
 
Jack Fear
15:43 / 25.03.04
...the kinds of discussions that you end up having w/r/t Philosophy and Religion end up being inevitably trivial, "Is there a God, etc"...

Am I the only one who finds the idea that "Is there a God?" is a trivial question absolutely fucking hilarious?"
 
 
diz
15:47 / 25.03.04
Am I the only one who finds the idea that "Is there a God?" is a trivial question absolutely fucking hilarious?"

i kind of smirked, but i think Tom has a point. the discussions that spring up from that question are inevitably trivial and never end up going anywhere.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
16:27 / 25.03.04
oooh, cusm. That's very nice.

And Anna, I raised it because of depth of historical/textual knowledge/citation in that thread, which is something I associate with the Head Shop approach.

I'd be dubious of moving threads from HS to Magick on 'quality' grounds. That would make the Magick a dumping ground for things considered 'not sharp enough for headshop', which would be dire. The conversation is where stuff like that should go. If it develops interestingly, it can always be moved again, nothing's set in stone. (tho' personally I love having intelligent conversation threads on the go.)
 
 
.
18:44 / 25.03.04
Am I the only one who finds the idea that "Is there a God?" is a trivial question absolutely fucking hilarious?"

Well, I did put "trivial" in scare quotes myself.

the discussions that spring up from that question are inevitably trivial and never end up going anywhere.

Well they won't if you take that attitude...

Much as I respect Tom, and of all the people on this board I respect him the most, I can't help feeling that this thread stems from a unhealthy prejudice against the validity of *any* headshoppy discussions of religion. Which is throwing the baby out with the bathwater in my opinion.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:33 / 25.03.04
In general, I think cusm has cut the cake very well. I believe further that there is neither cause nor need to "demote" threads to the Magick. The HS, the Magick and the Conversation do different things - things should be rerouted accordingly. The Head Shop should in my humble opinion be demanding and require attention to be paid to threads and posts in a way that that the Conversation may not, but that's not really the point. My position has always been that if something requires no special knowledge or serious consideration it will get a far wider audience in the Conversation, and will therefore be happier there. The Head Shop and the Magick both presuppose at least an interest in thinking hard about the things that are being discussed in a way that the Conversation doesn't.

As I said above, I think the problem here is not necessarily bad placing but just too many threads being created without much thought being put into what they are for or why they are new threads. Left to my own devices, since the single element holding together many of these threads is a reluctance to stick to a topic, I would probably move discussion of spiritual awakenings to the Magick (or, in fact, the Conversation, since detailing your spiritual development is not something that requires strict consideration either of some specialised study or of the previous posts to the thread) and merge the other threads into a single "Christianity and its discontents" thread where the shifting battleground can be contested.
 
 
Tom Coates
23:04 / 25.03.04
Well look obviously I think religion is a load of bunk - and I stand by my statement, I do think the question "Is there a God" is trivial in the extreme. Yet obviously a large number of people in the world will disagree with that position which is why I brought my anxieties up in here so they could be sense-checked.

The first thing I should say (because frankly I should say it more) is that the Head Shop does not and should not have the monopoly on intellectually rigorous discussion. I actually disagree quite strongly with cusm's statement that subject is less important than approach, even though I suspect that it's more of a semantic difference of opinion than an actual one. The Head Shop is there for discussions of philosophy, cultural studies and identity politics (and a few related fields). It is not there for discussions of theology any more than the Books forum is there to talk about Music. And the Magick (and Spirituality) forum is meant to be just as intellectually rigorous as the Head Shop is, just as we would expect (or aspire to) a decent level of respect for scientific rigour in the Laboratory and a decent level of fact-checking and argument in the Switchboard.

But obviously there are places where the various forums overlap and wander into one another. For example we have a books forum when of course books can be about anything. We have a section for television that could clearly include music television programmes of some kind. Here's where the approach / subject matter comes in. A TV programme about Einstein would be discussed in Film, TV and Theatre. A thread about or inspired by a scientific theory discussed in the programme would go into the Laboratory. A novel or biography about the life of Martin Luther King would be discussed in Books, whereas a thread about Martin Luther King's influence on the world would be discussed in the Switchboard. I would argue that these all constitute different subject matters rather than different approaches, even though lots of the same people or theories would be mentioned in different places.

Some basic rules of thumb that I would think make sense in the context of the media-based fora - every discussion about a particular fictional or artistic work would go in those fora, along with every discussion about the literary/filmic/design aspects of factual works. However if the subject matter of a book is what's up for discussion, or the book is only being used to illustrate a concept, then one of the thematic groups would be an appropriate place to start - ie. Head Shop / Switchboard / Lab.

In the case of the Magick and Christianity it would be my position that if you want to talk about a philosophical position on divinity then it should be in the Head Shop, because that's what it's for - the discussion of philosophy, cultural studies and identity politics. If you want to talk about belief in God or a desire to connect with the unknowable or the spiritual, then you should be in the Magick. If you want to talk about Science becoming a new religion then you should probably be either in the Magick or the Laboratory.

Now finally I'd like to address this comment: "Much as I respect Tom, and of all the people on this board I respect him the most, I can't help feeling that this thread stems from a unhealthy prejudice against the validity of *any* headshoppy discussions of religion"

I'd like to say straightaway that I don't think that's true. I don't agree with the idea that the Head Shop is defined by the style of debate inside it for a start. I do not think anything that people want to think seriously about should be in the Head Shop. On the other hand, I am aware that the forum that we set up for discussions about world religions, belief systems, paganism and the practice of spirituality and magick doesn't actually talk about a lot of that stuff most of the time. I do not think it should be an insult to say that a thread about religion should exist in the Magick. Unfortuantely at the moment I think it probably does tend that way. The name of the forum could be a problem, or it could be that the way we've divided up the site sets up religion and philosophy (and religion and science / religion and politics) as binaries. But whatever the cause, I think it's important that we can have discussions of similar rigour and quality outside the Head Shop and all around the rest of the board.
 
 
cusm
14:52 / 26.03.04
I think that rebranding The Magick as Magick And Spirituality was a very good move to helping sort out a lot of this, by the way.
 
 
40%
10:08 / 27.03.04
Why not just "spirituality"? Isn't it a broad enough category to cover everything without any possible bias?

The current title reads a bit like "carrots and vegetables" to me.
 
 
Tom Coates
18:01 / 27.03.04
Or indeed just "Spirit", perhaps? This would have been easier of course when we still used the "The" at the beginning of those four fora, The Head Shop, The Switchboard, The Spirit, The Laboratory. Perhaps I should move back to that model... Any thoughts?
 
 
Tom Coates
19:27 / 28.03.04
Or maybe switch to something something like "The Temple"?
 
  

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