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Apocalyptic Title Bout: DMT versus Ibogaine

08:05 / 25.03.04

Here's the thought: what the hell would happen if you mixed these two drugs?

Assuming both are conduits for some kind of spirits, aliens or entities, and knowing what we do about the temperments of each, what effects might we expect?

Could the two types interact on the meeting ground of one's mind?

Might this trigger some kind of catastrophic showdown between the stern but benevolent Old Man and the hellishly contemptuous machine elves?

Might it lead to massive sun-as-sackcloth-moon-as-blood style psychic conflict?

Might the Old Man lead one to understand the machine elves, sympathize and empathize with them even?

Might the two entity types even merge into some unprecedented synthetic spirit?

Or would you just shit your pants and forget where you were for two weeks?

15:35 / 25.03.04

I'm suspecting the pants shiting theory holds the most weight here. Though from what I've read, I suspect the DMT would overpower the Ibogaine initially, and you would come out of the machine elves' land to a good talking from the Stern Old Man, if you didn't just pass out from it all in the first place.

Phex: Dorset Doom

17:01 / 25.03.04

Hmm... I've heard of the Machine Elves but what's this about a 'stern old man'. I don't seem to have come across Ibogaine (sounds like the 'GROW SIX INCHES IN UNDER TWO WEEKS! LONGER LASTING ERECTIONS! stuff I find in my inbox, maybe 'stern old man' is a penis metaphor...) what is it, where can you get it and what can it do?

17:05 / 25.03.04

why would you want to do this?
i second cusms theory: DMT overpowering I first, then trail out on ibogaine.

I have never tried Ibogaine though.
have you, sine?

17:44 / 25.03.04

i think ibogaine is the plant that has been recently put forward as the solution to glasgow's heroin problem.

it apparently teaches users their place in the world(and thats a good thing) and in doing so shows them the uselessness of their addiction.(this old man maybe gives them a talking to?)

its an african plant that cures addiction.
its an african plant that shows you your place in the world.

take your pick.

17:45 / 25.03.04

oh, and ungh.

17:46 / 25.03.04

I never heard of it either, but then I don't do drugs.

Still, found this:
Ibogain Trip

Highlight:

9:00PM
"I might puke"

9:22PM
"I am feeling a little better"

18:43 / 25.03.04

As William Burroughs might have said ( in a voice like a rusty black type-writer ) " this experiment seems contra-indicated. "

Perhaps the DMT first, and then, if you're feeling up to it, do the Ibogaine later.

Then again, if you're going to go through with this, I'd definitely be interested to hear the results.

18:53 / 25.03.04

Most tryptamines and indoles play well together, but Ibogaine is fairly unique - closer to indole but still somewhat different. One could certainly smoke DMT while peaking on Ibogaine... As noted, shitting of the pants would be likely. DMT tends to have pretty powerful stimulant effects and for Ibogaine, the hallucinogenic dose is several times higher than the stimulant dose. So the Ibogaine trip alone is intensely physically stimulating, which is why North African tribal rituals can last 18+ hours.

From what I've read, Ibogaine is very challenging both mentally and physically. The "stern old man" is probably a reference to the ancestral aspect of the experience which seems to be a consistent theme with Ibogaine use. Viewing your own life events, as well as those of the family members who preceded you, back and back. Meeting and communicating with the Ancestors.

I'm curious if there are any cross-indications for mixing MAOI's and Ibogaine. If it's safe to mix them, one could eat some Syrian Rue & DMT after eating the Ibogaine. I think this would be a profoundly powerful experience... especially when you come down in a pile of your own feces.

20:03 / 25.03.04

Alternatively, the combination might cause your ancestors might shit their pants.

Ibogaine does look like neat stuff, though. It basicly switches off the craving reflex of narcotic addiction, in additon to the pants shitting ancestor contact hallucinations.

20:46 / 25.03.04

I have never meet anybody who has actually tried Ibogaine.
anybody here with any first hand experience?

as far as i know it does not really switch off any cravings directly, but due to the profound spiritual experience the guinea pig will make smarter choices about unhealthy behaviors ( e.g. overindulging in drugs) in the future. The "treatment" is usually repeated every few years or severe addicts will return. I still stick to the 12 steps myself

similar treatments have been developed with LSD (addictions to opiates have proven to be curable by LSD trips under psychiatric supervision ) but due to LSDs illegalization and bad press in the 60ies this research has never found any real implication or credit.

23:35 / 25.03.04

I found this about iboga:
When I ate Eboka,
I found myself taken by it up a long road in a deep forest,
until I came to a barrier, unable to pass, I saw a crowd of black persons also unable to pass.
In the distance..it was very bright.
I could see many colors in the air..
Suddenly my father descended from above in the form of a bird.
He gave me then my Eboka name and enabled me to fly up after him
over the barrier of iron.
-Ndong Asseko of Gabon-

02:26 / 26.03.04

Breaking Open the Head (Daniel Pinchbeck) has some interesting things to say about iboga... it was the first stop on his long strange trip(s). I don't know about mixing the two; think I'm going to stick to combinations that have a cultural history for the next while. (I'm contemplating ayahuasca some time this summer...)

05:28 / 26.03.04

333, the long winding road is a very common Eboga vision. ONe of the archetypes it unlocks.

Note that Ibogaine is fatal in very large doses. Also note that Bwiti initiatory doses - the major 24hr ancestor trip - uses a near fatal dose. At lower doses tribesman eat it to give them the energy to dance all night.

iszabelle, I've never come across Ibogaine, but I did ayahuasca once. Absolutely the single most mind-blowingly profound event of my life. My friends and I didn't even feel human for about 2 weeks after. Or maybe it was that nobody else seemed human... Incredible.

05:31 / 26.03.04

Ibogaine (aside from metaphysical/spritual rehab) appears to 'reset' the chemical balance of the brain so that the user no longer cravers heroin / other opiates. Trials are going on with Ibogaine in Vancouver BC with heroine addicts and succes rates are much higher than any other known remedy. I did a bit of the reading re: LSD and curing addiction. These trips are guided by psyciatrists who use symbology, archetypes etc. to help the patient look at their addiction in another way.

While the trip is exciting to pyschonauts, addiction researchers are excited about the alkaloids present in Ibogaine that appear to reset the brains neurochemical dependencies aka physical addiction.

Word - My First Post -

That Ninja

If anyone wants more info I can find the links.

08:03 / 26.03.04

Now that we've reached fecal consensus...

I'm not certain I'm entirely crazy enough to try this, to be honest. I know some people who were peripherally associated with the Vancouver project, which was one of the things that got me thinking about iboga to start with. As for DMT, I can't say machine elves ever had too much lure for me, though I'll try anything once. The possibilities of the interaction between states intrigues me, obviously.

I've heard that the peak of the iboga trip is a state not dissimilar from a lucid dream...further, the drug is supposed to bring some kind of retrospective clarity to your self-destructive habits (we've all got 'em). DMT peak also sounds "clear", razor-sharp in fact. I figure if nothing else, the peak of the shared trip would be clear-as-crystal...like having the eyelids torn off your mind. Then the obligatory coprological disaster.

The drug touted in the "mortgage your penis diploma" spam is "IbonerGaine".

Indeed, I was using the 'stern old man' as shorthand for the ancestral morals lesson.

I'd be interested in learning more about the specific pharmacology involved, especially in their interactions, if anyone has the low-down in more detail. I'll have to resuscitate my organic chem knowledge.

Ayahuasca: Bill Burrough's telepathy vines, right? I'd love to get my hands on some of that...sources, anyone (without getting ass-kicked by the fuzz)?

08:22 / 26.03.04

If you do a google under the name D.M. Turner, you might turn up some info on the author of a great book on Psychdelics, can't recall the title, The Psychedelics Handbook maybe? Mr Turner (gee, wonder if that's his real name?) gives details on all kinds of crazy multi substance combinations he took, cocktails of Ketamine, DMT, LSD, Ectasty, Nitrous Oxide, frequently all of the above in one trip. He did it all in a spirit of scientific research, not just mindless caning (honest), so his notes are quite detailed and thoughtful. Lots of trip preparation and safety advice as well. He was a veteran of over a 1000 trips. Funnily enough though,this still didn't give him what he wanted, I recall him saying he was undergoing initiation into Wicca to help him open up emotionally. He's dead now, sadly drowned in the bath. Apparently he was on Ketamine, there were a few conspiracy theories circulating about this.

If you find a link, post it here.

08:26 / 26.03.04

15:04 / 26.03.04

Interesting site here for ayahuasca - recipes, experiences, all sorts of goodies.

16:15 / 29.03.04

Here is an article in which Burroughs' esteem for ibogaine as an addiction-breaker is noted.

And here is the exhaustive Erowid entry on ibogaine. They seem not to have any trip reports combining ibogaine with ayahuasca or other DMT sources, although they do have four general trip reports, including one by Daniel Pinchbeck. You can find a thread in this forum about Pinchbeck's book by searching for either his name or "Breaking Open the Head," the name of his book.

17:02 / 30.03.04

The drug touted in the "mortgage your penis diploma" spam is "IbonerGaine".

Hmmm, perhaps you're thinking of the "Stiff Old Man"...

18:58 / 30.03.04

I've dug around a bit more and can't find any info about mixing other substances with Ibogaine. For one, the pharmacology of Ibogaine seems to be very complex. It shows effects in most major neurochemical pathways, but especially in dopaminergic cells. Secondary sites are cholinergic and serotinergic. There also seem to be contradictory effects in each pathway - sometimes its inhibitory and other times excitatory. And it seems to vary between male & female, oddly enough. Structurally, isolated Ibogaine seems to sit somewhere between LSD and Harmala and it appears to be considered as an indole, but it remains very unique. In plant form, as in the Tabernanthe genus, there are a whole slew of secondary and tertiary compounds which modify the experience. The anthropological reports of African tribal members eating eboga are probably somewhat different from the effects of taking the extract.

Another issue I suspect is that the full-blown psychedelic Ibogaine experience is so powerful that nobody even considers kicking it up a notch with another powerful psychedelic. But looking at the pharmacology I can't imagine why there would be any problem smoking DMT, aside from the aforementioned likelihood of crapping one's pants. Given it's strong stimulant effects though, it would seem dangerous to mix with an MAO inhibitor, possibly leading to a hypertensive crisis. I.E. Don't try this at home.

Finally, it's just bloody well near impossible to come by. Most people would want to develop some familiarity with the compound before trying admixtures.

22:17 / 03.04.04

Pinchbeck's report on erowid says he tried iboga for the second time, legally, at a clinic in northern mexico that was primarily for addiction treatment, but was open to the drug's more spiritual uses as well. anyone know anything about this clinic/ ways of contacting it/ ways of contacting Mr. Pinchbeck?

05:30 / 04.04.04

There's probably a way of getting in touch with him through his website (breaking open the head, naturally...)

06:07 / 04.04.04

Here is a rather interesting DMT site I've been reading over this evening:

http://deoxy.org/hs_cehn.htm

06:12 / 04.04.04

thanks for the link