BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


Barbelith Book Club: The Divine Comedy (discussion thread)

 
 
deja_vroom
00:17 / 25.03.04
If you build it, they will come...
 
 
deja_vroom
01:19 / 25.03.04
It took him the rest of his life to complete his better work, and shortly after finishing it, he died.

Some points that discuss Dante`s craft:

He uses lines from Virgil's works in the context of his story (Canto V, v. 7, line 2), both paying homage to his maestro and showing that his craft is at least in the same level in which Virgil's works exist. He yokes every subject explored or described in the poem, and puts them under the logic of Catholic doctrine. Jason is in the Christian hell(Canto XVIII, v. 28 to 32). No Hades for him, and even Virgil has no say in these matters. Also, his boldness - he includes himself in a group formed by Homer, Horace, Ovid and Lucano(Canto IV, v. 33 to 34).
 
 
Tom Coates
21:54 / 26.03.04
Just as a bit of a sideline, I was wondering if anyone knew of any unsuccessful epic poems? I'm just asking because the few remaining works of the Classical era - up to and including the Aenied and Lucan's Civil War - and Paradise Lost and the Divine Comedy all use the form and are all well known. But while I know of an infinity of terrible novels, I can't think of any epic poetry that doesn't appear to be - at the very least - reasonably respected.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
08:38 / 29.03.04
Tut tut, Tom, how terribly off-topic. Start a new thread... or wait until we've finished with Dante in this one. Normally I wouldn't mind, but this is a thread with a pretty specific purpose...

Jade, I am still doing this, just very slowly. I promise I will post again as soon as I can add to my thoughts from the other thread (which I will shift over here pronto).
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
10:15 / 29.03.04
And as if by magic...

I too have started - I'm up to Canto IV though, so I haven't exactly got very far. I'm finding it a little difficult to get into - I don't mean that I'm not enjoying it, because I am, but that it's a stop-start reading experience. This is because of the notes after every Canto; I suppose I could just skip them, but often I find that reading them does actually enhance my enjoyment of the text.

I've got a print of the William Blake illustration for Canto I, with Dante fleeing from the leopard, the lion and the ravening she-wolf...

The main thing I've noted so far: the importance of compassion and of pity in the work - it seems to be this which enables beings to break the rigid bounds of the heaven/hell hierarchy - Mary's pity enables Beatrice to ask Virgil to help Dante; Lucia and Beatrice both have pity for Dante; Virgil has pity for the souls in Limbo...
 
 
deja_vroom
23:56 / 30.03.04
I'm past Canto V. It's getting grimmer and grimmer. Virgil reassured Dante of his (Dante's) merits, which he (Dante) momentarily doubted.

And I (a-hem) have to disagree a bit with Virgil, when he (Canto III, verse 6 line 3) says that the population of Hell have lost the gift of intellect. I mean, I'd think sanity would be a pre-requisite for understanding and adequately suffering Hell's punishment... wheres the payoff in punishing a bunch of mental people who have no discerning?

Unless I'm getting it wrong, and what Virgil means is that in Hell are punished those who, in life, have lost their intellect and chosen evil instead of good. Thoughts?

Curious bit of discovery: Charon, despite its depiction (at least, in the few drawings I've seen) as an old man in a cloak, is really a Demon from Hell...

I find delightful to see and compare the demons' reactions to Dante, by the way. At a further point, they will look at how Dante walks, and how he doesn't seem to move the rocks beneath his feet as he walks - they get angry or suspicious. And Dante (I mean, think about it - you're in the middle of freaking HELL, with only a diaphanous shadow of a freaking poet - not even a warrior, for Pete's sake... - to protect you, and suddenly creatures of the darkest essence of evil take notice of you... I laughed nervously at those bits...)
 
 
grant
14:32 / 07.04.04
I've just started the John Ciardi translation. In his intro, he says one of his aims was to keep the poem in simple, common language, since that was one of the things Dante did. Which is kind of cool and strange, since we tend not to think about epic poetry as a vulgate kind of thing.
 
 
grant
13:48 / 08.04.04
Oh, and for Tom, yeah, there's a definite implication that a lot of people were producing epic poems. I imagine they didn't survive because the technology for preserving literature was at a premium in the 1300s.

-----

Anyway, finished Canto I last night. The end notes say of the Three Beasts that meet our narrator at the door come from Jeremiah 5:6.
Here are a few translations of the pertinent passage.

Basically, Jeremiah sees these three beasts as God's punishment on a city of backsliders -- people who said they'd uphold the Law and then didn't. I'm not sure whether Dante is seeing himself as a refugee from this city or as a backslider himself, but it's definitely a subtext.

The end notes in my version add that the three beasts are also probably allegorical representations of the three categories of hell's sins: incontinence, violence and fraud.

I think it's interesting that Virgil is seen as an alternative to this kind of deadly Hebrew myth... I wonder if this is the point in history when Greek philosophy collided with Jewish metaphysics and gave us something close to modern Christianity.

I know philosophically, that was up to Thomas Aquinas, but culturally... literarily...? Actually, looking it up, here's an essay/lecture relating Aquinas and Dante.

(As a note, Aquinas died sometime around Dante's 10th birthday.)
 
 
grant
14:47 / 12.04.04
OK, up to Canto VII or VIII now and have to admit, I'm interested in the way Dante inserts these tabloidy details about contemporary politics into the kind of stream of cultural history, with prophecies about the Florentine Blacks and Whites tossed in with commentaries about the fates of Cleopatra and Helen.

I'm a little put off (?)... well, intrigued, really, at the way Tristan is just sort of tossed out as one of the great lovers tossed into the Hell of Lust, and the way the author of the tale of Lancelot is described as a "pander".

The endnotes tell me that's actually a kind of pun, since in the French poem of Lancelot, the fellow urging Lance and Guinevere to do the nasty has a name very similar to the Italian word for "pander." (Guillemot? I can't remember, and don't have the book next to me. Anyway, you get the idea.)


Regardless, I'm wondering about Dante's relationship to the ideal of courtly love and the popularity of troubadour poetry in the Middle Ages. I know about this stuff pretty much only because of a class in Middle English where I focused on Malory's Le Morte D'Arthur, where both Tristran and Lancelot are examplars of the virtuous-but-worldly knight. The stories are quite old, but Malory's omnibus (combining all the tales into one, novel-like story) came out around 150 years after Dante.


So what I'm wondering is: Is Dante slamming these European myth cycles? He certainly seems to like the Greeks and Romans better than Lance and Tristran, although there are plenty of both in Hell.... There's a definite ideology being worked out here, a definite hierarchy of what's good and what's not up to snuff.

I'm also really curious how Dante sees his relationship with Beatrice as different from Tristran and Isolde. I suppose that question really is: What makes Love a virtue? How does Reason interact with Love?

Never having read the whole Comedy before, I'm also curious if Lancelot pops up somewhere himself, and if so, where. Purgatory? Heaven? In the end of the Morte, Lancelot is sort of the final figure from the old times, who renounces knighthood and becomes a celibate monk. He's basically a good guy, whose trouble keeping his willy in his metal pants led to the downfall of the Best Kingdom Ever. I wonder if his repentance is part of Dante's scheme, or even if he's big enough in Dante's world to rate a mention.
 
 
grant
12:15 / 13.04.04
So, in Canto VII, we meet Fortuna, and we end at The Tower... tarocchi, anyone?

And I mentioned something about European myths before...

"The king whose perfect wisdom transcends all,
made the heavens and posted angels on them
to guide the eternal light that it might fall

from every sphere to every sphere the same.
He made the Earth's splendors by like decree
and posted as their minister this high Dame,

The Lady of Permutations...

...she rules her sphere as the other gods rule theirs...

...And this is she so railed at and reviled
that even her debtors in the joys of time
blaspheme her name. Their oaths are bitter and wild,

but she in her beatitude does not hear.
Among the Primal Beings of God's joy
she breathes her blessedness and wheels her sphere."


So, is Dante here making a folk goddess into an angel?

I gotta say, the idea of "Primal Beings" reminds me a lot of the Endless in Sandman.



-----


In Canto VIII, I kinda dig Phlegyas. End notes say he was King of Boeotia, son of Ares and grandfather of Aesculapias via Apollo seducing his daughter. Set fire to the temple of Apollo, wound up in Hell.

That's an interesting transition, there.

So, in this one Dante gets wrathful at one of the Wrathful, and gets praised for it. That sounds a little creepy to me.
 
 
fatti non fummo per viver come bruti
08:13 / 14.04.04
Can I just point out that the whole of the Divina Commedia(along with thousands of other important things about it) is an allegory that Dante uses to transpose contemporary issues and talk about political and social matters that he would not otherwise be permitted to speak of openly?
a lot of the Commedia is directly influenced by the specific events that were happening in Dante's life at the time. his being exiled from Florence, working for various lords etc, the divisions in the Catholic Church, are all re-elaborated so that he can express his opinions. you will find that the division between "Good" and "Bad" is closely linked to Dante's personal political and ideal sympathies/antipathies.
it's important to put charcters and events of the Commedia in perspective with real world events and people.
And The Divina Commedia is important (I'd say unique, but that's national pride talking obviously...) because it's not the "Amor Cortese"-Troubadour like poetry that was the mainstream at the time. it is a turning point for european culture, a chasm.
nothing could be the same after the Commedia, and nothing has been.
 
 
grant
13:41 / 14.04.04
I was actually shocked at how open Dante seems to be at naming names... how openly critical he was of what were obviously not just influential and powerful people, but influential and powerful people who had recently died.

What else is going on, social commentary-wise, under the surface?
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
09:29 / 15.04.04
I think perhaps a great deal of the background for Dante's relationship with Beatrice could be found in the Vita Nuova (which, I understand, is much more closely aligned with contemporary romantic poetry etc. than the Divine Comedy). And the obvious difference between Tristan and Iseult and Dante and Beatrice is that the former were adulterous lovers, whereas Dante, as I understand it, had no real relationship with Beatrice other than idolising her from afar, and also idealising her as we see in the Divine Comedy...

I am struck by the very physical (rather than metaphysical) descriptions of the landscape of Hell, and the tortures which take place within that landscape and as part of that landscape - I don't know why, but I wasn't expecting such a strong sense of actuality - think this is very effective indeed.

I am dying to read the Aeneid and see how it all fits together...
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
09:35 / 15.04.04
Grant - re: Dante the Pilgrim's anger at the Wrathful - the notes in my edition (Mark Musa - excellent notes, thoroughly recommend it, Penguin Classics new version) say that this anger is actually a sign of Dante's increasing understanding of the nature of sin; whereas when he meets Paolo and Francesca, he is deluded into pity for their state, and when he meets the glutton he still feels sorry for him, here he is reaching the correct state of righteous anger at the condemned sinners... it's part of his learning process as he journeys through Hell. I think this is very interesting as a window into a worldview which is, to me, totally alien...
 
 
fatti non fummo per viver come bruti
12:22 / 15.04.04
I'm going from memory, but in nuce:
you can have, in my opinion of course, a good understanding of the link between the Commedia and contemporary society and Dante's own personal life events by looking at what he writes about the people in the ante-hell limbo ("ignavi" in italian, I don't know the correct translation sorry). he puts there all the people who have not taken sides in life, who have never stood up for anything.this stems directly from his being exiled from florence for standing publicly for one of the two political factions, and suffering on his own flesh the consequences.so it's understandable that he has no sympathy for people who "take cover" and despises them so much that not even hell will have them.
as for Beatrice, yes the Vita Nova describes in a lot more detail his relationship, platonic, with her and it is the more "traditional" piece of work. he meets Beatrice when he's nine for the first time, then sees her again when he's 18 (they're peers) and goes on from there.
one of the main points about the Commedia is, as you've noted, that it's a political essay (among other things), and that Dante is capable of talking and expressing very strong opinions about contemporary issues (even going so far as to pass judgement on popes...) getting away with it in 13th century Italy.and some things have simply not changed...
 
 
grant
15:35 / 19.04.04
Just finished Canto X, the heretics in their glowing tombs.

Again with the local politics.

But the bit about the perception of time for the damned (I keep wanting to capitalize letters: "the perception of Time for the Damned") is really cool, and feels postmodern. They know the future, but not the near-present or the past. It's like Memento only worse!

According to the endnotes in my edition, the really grim thing is that on Judgement Day, there will be no more future. And the damned will suffer further by having their minds circumscribed for all eternity.

----

Also, the endnotes have something to say about the "Guido" that gets mentioned as the other genius -- the fellow behind Farinata asks why Guido isn't along with him, if genius is the qualification, and Dante answers that he doesn't serve the right master, in effect.

They say Guido was a friend of Dante's, but was an Epicurean and not a faithful Catholic. So this seems to be Dante's way of saying, "Hey, buddy! Too bad you and your family are going to burn in Hell for all time for denying the Life Eternal!"

So I have to wonder what their friendship was like.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
11:20 / 20.04.04
I don't think Dante is particularly bothered about depicting his friends and mentors in the torments of Hell. I've just gone past the bit where he encounters his old teacher, Brunetto Latini, among the sodomites.

Actually this episode brought to the forefront, for me, the way in which Dante illustrates his narrative with vignettes of contemporary Italy - so the tributary of the Phlegethon is likened to a hot spring river in Italy, a stream of which was diverted to go through the (separate) prostitutes' quarter. This is quite unsettling actually; you get these occasional glimpses of mediaeval Italian life and think 'oh, that's interesting/pretty etc.', and then realise that we're in Hell, and what exactly is Dante trying to say about his country and countrymen? (Not just the explicit references to Florence and Florentines and their decay/reprobation). I think in some cases perhaps they are just illustrative, or meant to reinforce the image in the reader's mind, but still... unsettling. E.g. this description of Ser Brunetto leaving Dante and Virgil to join his fellow sodomites (Canto XV):

Then he turned back, and he seemed like one of those
who run Verona's race across its fields
to win the green cloth prize, and he was like

the winner of the group, not the last one in.


When I first read it I thought it was a beautiful image; and then I read the accompanying note, which says: 'Ironically, the Pilgrim's last view of his elderly and dignified teacher is the sight of him, naked, racing off at top speed to catch up with his companions in sin.'

I also liked the descriptions of the ogling of the sodomites in this canto. And one thing I have finally noticed, duh, is that although some of the damned spirits bewail the evils of their situation, not one of them has expressed repentance of their sin but rather they continue to exhibit it in Hell. Obvious when you think about it, but I think it is taking me a while to get used to the worldview.

I have just finished Canto XVII - the descent on the back of Geryon. This I thought was the most arresting passage so far - the visual imagery is even more striking here than elsewhere.

I doubt if Phaethon feared more - that time
he dropped the sun-reins of his father's chariot
and burned the streak of sky we see today -

or if poor Icarus did - feeling his sides
unfeathering as the wax began to melt,
his father shouting: 'Wrong, your course is wrong' -

than I had when I felt myself in air
and saw on every side nothing but air;
only the beast I sat upon was there.'


And:

As the falcon on the wing for many hours,
having found now prey, and having seen no signal
(so that his falconer sighs: 'Oh, he falls already'),

descends, worn out, circling a hundred times
(instead of swooping down), settling at some distance
from his master, perched in anger and disdain,

so Geryon brought us down to the bottom
at the foot of the jagged cliff, almost against it,
and once he got our bodies off his back,

he shot off like a shaft shot from a bowstring.
 
 
grant
18:39 / 20.04.04
I'm glad you posted those lines -- both because they're striking, but also because now I can compare them to what Ciardi is going to do to them when I get there.

----

I have a big, kind of backgroundy question: Why Virgil? What's so hot about him? I get the feeling that he was being kind of passed over by Dante's contemporary culture, but I don't really know that much about him. (Not a Classics student, me.)

Also, was pleased to note Aristotle being quoted by Virgil as we leave the heretics for the first batch of the "Sins of the Lion" -- the violent. Obviously, Dante's part of the same movement as Aquinas, incorporating the dead Jews and the dead Greeks into one Big Fat Philosophy. Only Dante's mixing in a lot of literary and mythical characters as well.

-----

Question for Jade, before I goes: is your Portuguese translation of The Inferno in terza rima? Seems like it might be easier to have the same words rhyme in another Romance language, but I'm not really that sure.
 
 
grant
14:06 / 26.04.04
Just gotten to the Malebolge -- Ciardi is much less poetic, I think, in describing the descent. But it is quite vivid, nonetheless. I'll have to post the lines when I have the book beside me.

I get the impression that Hell gets more crowded the further down you go (with the exception of the crowd outside the gate).

Anyone else get that feeling?
 
 
deja_vroom
12:39 / 27.04.04
grant: It is in terza rima, yeah. It gets closer to the original as English versions, for sure. I have two different versions and they go all over the map trying to get the lines to convey the same meaning as in the original.

I'll be writing a lenghty post on this tonite.
 
 
flufeemunk effluvia
19:35 / 27.04.04
This is really very funny that I come by this. I picked up a copy of The Inferno (just that bit, without Purgatory and Paradise). In yet another stroke of fortune, my English teacher annouced that the final exam will be based on none other than The Inferno. I am seriously considering learning Flash JUST so I can make a little flash thing titled "Where the Hell Do I Belong? A Guide For the Dammned."
 
 
grant
00:15 / 02.05.04
It's a lot of fun. My copy has a few maps and diagrams in it.

Gotta love the maps.

So, I'm in Canto XXV -- I've just finished the funniest damn things in the book, the "gargoyle cantos" as the introductions call 'em. XXI-XXII, the ones with the demons. I just about laughed out loud when Dante plays up his terror at seeing the demons over there, and Virgil says to him (I kept hearing John Cleese's voice), "Oh, they're no problem at all! You just, eh, hide over behind those rocks. Don't worry! Remember, I've done this before... once...."

Right, when there were still bridges over every bolgia, yeah.

I'm assuming, also, that the original text didn't have the little intros for each Canto... so these would be the ones with the big "reveal," I think -- the demon Malacoda gives the exact time that Dante has descended into Hell as being Good Friday/Holy Saturday, the anniversary of Christ's descent, which caused the big earthquake that knocked down the bridges and caused the rock slides and whatnot in prior Cantos. Was this referenced earlier in some specific way that I'm not remembering? If not, it's really interesting that a demon spills the beans.

Also interesting that Dante is kind of making himself a Christ figure.

-----

for interest's sake, here's Ciardi's translation of Geryon's descent, the same verses quoted earlier:

I think there was no greater fear the day
Phaeton let loose the reins and burned the sky
along the great scar of the Milky Way

Nor when Icarus, too close to the sun's track
felt the wax melt, unfeathering his loins
and heard his father cry, "Turn back! Turn back!" --

than I felt when I found myself in air
afloat in space with nothing visible
but the enormous beast that bore me there.

and

As a flight-worn falcon sinks down wearily
though neither bird nor lure has signalled it,
the falconer crying out: "What! spent already!" --

then turns and in a hundred spinning gyres
sulks from her master's call, sullen and proud --
so to that bottom lit by endless fires

the monster Geryon circled and fell,
setting us down at the foot of the precipice
of ragged rock on the eighth shelf of Hell.

And once freed of our weight, he shot from there
into the dark like an arrow into air.


The visual image of this was a little spoiled in my edition, since not one but two maps show the spiral course of Geryon's descent, in a kind of silly corkscrew around the waterfall into the eighth circle.
 
 
grant
02:02 / 02.05.04
Oh, and this goofy quiz came up on another board...

...wherein I remembered thinking that Dante's trip on foot through the bolgia of the hypocrites might be a tacit admission, allegorically, that he was flirting with hypocrisy himself, having judged so many others by sticking them in Hell, basically.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
13:38 / 07.05.04
I actually finished this earlier this week, but haven't really managed to collect my thoughts on it so far... It was interesting to read Musa's notes on his translation - he was rather snooty about Ciardi and others who have attempted to translate into an English form of terza rima - said that English just doens't have enough rhymes to make such a translation anything other than forced, and that in attempting to find rhymes previous translators have misrepresented Dante's tone, which is largely very matter-of-fact, and is better represented in blank verse (because it is more flexible and doesn't have the rhyme requirements). That's what he said, anyway...
 
 
grant
17:46 / 10.05.04
Not done yet -- but have to say Ciardi says that he chose the rhyme-not rhymed-rhyme form (as well as using occasionally clunky rhymes) to try to stay true to Dante's meaning as much as possible.

Whatever....

I took a break to read The Da Vinci Code (it was for work, but heck, I love that stuff) so will be back with more questions soon.
 
 
grant
19:44 / 18.05.04
Am preparing to enter Cocytus.

Fascinated by the presence of the Giants -- they seem to be a cipher for Dante's use of pre-Christian myths, really. Sort of ensnared by a history they didn't expect, "reassigned" under the Earth (where they started out being) by the sudden emergence of this Judeo-Christian realm of punishment.
 
 
deja_vroom
21:17 / 22.05.04
Sorry for being absent like this. Now I have more free time , and will contribute properly.

Ok:

What I find particularly interesting is the fact that, contrary to what happens today, the existence of Hell was something held as undisputably true by the majority of people back during the time when Dante wrote the Commedia. It just really *existed* somewhere out there. You can imagine the impact of a work such as the Commedy, with its scope, its monumental and vigorous descriptions. Today we startt our reading knowing that the Commedy is (also) about Hell, and this fact already denies us the possibility of reading that work under the same light under which it was written and then read back at the 1300's simply because to most of us Hell is not in any way a physical possibility. I wonder how exactly the average literate mind of the 1300's (when thew world was flat and monsters awaited in its edges) reacted to Dante's vision, given that it is, even by today's standards, relentlessly grim and gruesome, and that it infuses Hell with such a cyclopean, cosmic-like majesty that it granted the Commedy the longevity and influence it achieved over humanity's collective imagination.

Imagining the Commedy as a fresh, just-released work, you can see how Dante sets up the mood and tension in Canto IV: Hell - Limbo - starts not with fire and teeth gnashing, but with darkness and diaphanous sighs. Not with fear and hate but with melancholy.

I will have to do proper research and study on this text once I'm done reading it. There's just so much allegory going on. I have three books with which I'm able to gather some information, but just by comparing them and analyzing the things that each edition overlooks I already gather that there's still more out there to be discovered. For instance, one thing that only one of my books mentions is that, in verse 37 of Canto IV, the little river near the castle is supposed to stand for Eloquence, which Dante disregards as a rather shallow discipline, since they're able to cross it by foot.


I don't have to draw attention to the sheer beauty of Dante's poetry, but it's inescapable, so I'll just post this bit which I found particularly touching:

Verse 35 Canto V "Amor, ch'a nullo amato amar perdona" - "Love, that a lover's loving it does not forgive". MMMmmm...

Interesting to see that the same man who wrote that also could behave quite like the proverbial bitch, see the way he treats Filippo Argenti in Canto VIII...

More later.
 
 
grant
14:41 / 24.05.04
yes, please. more.

I'm wondering about the Devil's butt now -- when they crawl across his body at the end of the show, it really seems like there's a butt joke there I didn't quite get.
 
  
Add Your Reply