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Chaos Magick Newbie here---needing help

  
 
The Prince of All Lies
14:30 / 24.03.04
Hi, I'm kinda new to this forum..I was always interested in Magick, but until some months ago all I knew about/read was some of Crowley's works and some rituals which were too confusing and I couldn't see the psychological/spiritual explanation for them. Thanks to reading the Invisibles (who of you hasn't??) I started reading about Chaos Magick, and it seems like what I have been looking all my life..a way to trascend Nihilism, to find the power within yourself without having to put on ceremonial robes and forge your own magical weapons...

Now, the purpose of this post is that I've been doing some meditation exercises based on Carroll's Liber MMM, which I found very similar (in function, not in form)to zazen exercises in Zen Buddhism, which I had tried to a certain extent. I've only been doing this for 3 or 4 days, but I already got some amazing results. Since I've been working alone, Idon't know if the things I write in my magic journal are shit, or if I'm on to something, but I'm finding it increasingly easier to reach that "not thinking" phase, I don't know if that is the same as gnosis, or an altered state of conciousness, but it sure as hell isn't a normal state of conciousness. The weird thing is that I thought it would take me longer to reach even a small lapse of "not thinking", but I'm getting better at it really fast.

The main reason for posting this is because last night I was doing my meditation exercise and I reached that same state of conciousness by focusing on my breathing. I felt like a part of my brain was numb or asleep, but at the same time liberated. I thought "this is it, I've reached a fucking ASC" but I didn't know what to do then. My previous forays into that state had been shorter, and I wasn't fully "concious" of my state. So I didn't know what to do or think, I had some sigils prepared but they were on a table behind me and I didn't want to break my concentration. So I tried to remember what one of those sigils was like, and visualize it in my mind's eye. But I couldn't quite remember it and it started shifting. I started to see weird things, shadows of Lovecraftian entities (that's the way I rationalize the weird things I saw). They were coming and going faster and faster, until I decided to interrupt my exercise because my breathing had gotten heavier, my heart rate faster and I was starting to sweat. I opened my eyes, and barely 14 minutes had passed since I had started the exercise. Never before had it taken me so little time to reach that state, and certainly not as intensely...I tried the exercise again, but the results were not as impressive.

Sorry if I'm boring you, but I'm trying to find out what was that I saw in my mind last night..if it was a subconcious effort to destroy my concentration or if it was something else. Anyway, those fuckers aren't gonna beat me, I'll keep doing it till I get the knack of it. I was wondering if maybe I should do a banishing ritual next time, to prevent those "attacks" but I've never done one, since at this point, where I'm only practicing my basic skills, it didn't seem necessary.

If you have any suggestions, please help this up-and-coming magician
thanks already, fellow lithers.
 
 
illmatic
15:00 / 24.03.04
Keep on doing what your doing, I would say. Haven't got anything more practical than that to offer. Keep on experiementing, see what works. You could imagine a protective circle around yourself before you start, see if it makes any difference.

I dislike the exercises in Liber Null because of the way they're written, he doesn't mention relaxation once, which I think is important in meditation but, y'know, maybe it works for you.
 
 
gale
15:57 / 24.03.04
Hello,

Don't get upset if you enter a state of gnosis with nothing to do. Simply reaching that state is a great end in itself! If you have work to do or sigils to send, get them ready beforehand.

I always perform a banishing ritual, just to keep those night gaunts away--they are a distraction that you don't need during a magical working. But, you could try conversing with them some time if you're curious.

As for what banishing ritual to use, there are so many. You could do a web search and find tons. Use what you like.

Also, Phil Hine's two books on chaos magick, Condensed Chaos and Prime Chaos are more user friendly than Peter Carroll--who can be a bit intimidating to beginners.

And one last thing: It sounds like you're doing great. Have fun!

Gale

"We are the makers of music. We are the dreamers of dreams"--Willy Wonka
 
 
Z. deScathach
17:55 / 24.03.04
I'd pretty much agree with what everyone else said. It really boils down to what you are trying to "get" out of it. Someone who is trying to enter the "supreme stillness" will view those manifestations as hindrances, and essentially ignore them, going back to the meditational focus. Another person might view that as a useful source of info, and communicate with it. Still another might see such an event as an "attack", and throw up shields or banish. As far as myself, I've done all three. One of the things that persons often get into with those kinds of exercises is agaonizing over what is the "right" thing to do. The right thing is what fulfills your intent. If your intent is to do magick in such a state, just go into it with that intent. It'll work out. If you desire info, go in with that intent. If you just want to be quiet, go in for that. Sounds like you are already doing the right stuff, you're just worried about whether it's REALLY the right stuff. Just trust... it's the right stuff. If you get yourself in a pickle, you'll get out of it. The people that get into trouble with magick are the ones that jump in with no concern or control over the situation. It sounds like you have both. Have fun.
 
 
Samael
19:33 / 24.03.04
Well, it sounds as though you are doing alright. I recommend The Book of Lies (the Disinformation Guide to the Occult, not old Al's stuff). Not only does it have Grant's "Pop Magic!" essay, which is great for any beginner, but it also has some pretty interesting stuff throughout. Of course, some of it carries the usual tone of seeming more intellectual than it really is, but with all things magickal, you take the cool for you with the crap, and separate.
 
 
The Prince of All Lies
19:46 / 24.03.04
Thank you all for the kind words..It's so cool to have a place where you can talk to like-minded people..This stuff is so exciting and life-changing that it sucks not having anyone to share it with. I've tried explaining the stuff I'm doing to some friends, but as someone said, it's like talking about sex with a virgin...

I'll keep doing what I was doing, maybe I'll try talking to the "entities"...but how do you do that? You just ask who they are? Is it necessary to "believe" in them as anything more than part of your subconscious?

Another question, if I may: When (assuming you do) you do meditating exercises, do you usually keep your eyes closed, or do you focus your gaze on an object? I'm asking because I do it with my eyes closed, and I fear that if I open my eyes when I reach gnosis to look at the sigils I've prepared, I'll fall out of that state.

thanks again, fellas.
 
 
Shanghai Quasar
04:06 / 25.03.04
Meditation? Just do whatever you prefer. Close your eyes and join with the flashes and the blanks or open them and let the world melt into itself.

As far as conversing with entities may be concerned, well, you can treat it like you're talking to a manifestation of your subconscious mind or you can treat it like you're talking with an independent spirit. It all depends on the entity in question, dunnit? That is to say, maybe some of your subconscious manifestations are arrogant twerps who would prefer that you treated them as individuals and may not want to talk to you unless you show them the respect they deserve as such a being.

Subconscious manifestations can be quite notoriously tricky and self-involved. So very unenlightened.

Right, well, anyway, tell us how it goes, so on and so forth. Best of luck.
 
 
The Prince of All Lies
15:09 / 25.03.04
thanks for clearing things, Quasar.. I'm still doubting if the state I've been reaching is true gnosis..How do you guys know for sure when you've reached it? To me it's because I start feeling weird, kinda disembodied, but I'm not sure if that qualifies as gnosis. The books I've read are quite vague about that sort of thing..

Last night I was meditating, and in less than 7 minutes (that's half the time it took me last time!!) I felt a "glimpse of gnosis", not as strong as the day before but it was the same feeling nonetheless. Then I saw a figure glowing in the dark in my mind..it started to morph and looked like a sigil, but it wasn't any of the sigils I've done. I took that as a sign that I could cast a sigil, so I opened my eyes, looked at the one I had prepared and focused on it. Then I closed my eyes and I could see the sigil glowing in the dark in my mind's eye. When it disappeared, I assumed it had been cast, so I broke my concentration to get rid of the piece of paper with the sigil without looking at it. But now I'm not 100% sure I cast it right..You just have to rely on what you feel? Isn't there a way to make sure?

I was wondering today if you could cast a sigil again if you're not sure it worked..but wouldn't that "kill" the original sigil if it was cast??

thanks again for the help, people...you're my only guidance
 
 
Z. deScathach
20:39 / 25.03.04
Stop worrying. Your doing good. Your doing the right stuff. Gnosis IMO is the same as trance. It's where you severly limit the thinking, discursive mind. The best thing to ensure that you fired your sigil is to just forget about it. Worrying about it exposes it to that discursive mind, and mucks everything up. In some ways, it is easier to find info on gnosis if you use the searchword "trance". Gnosis is a word used very specifically with chaos magick, and has fewer results. If you compare the two, however, you realize that they are pretty much the same.
 
 
The Prince of All Lies
22:42 / 25.03.04
thanks, Z..you guys have really boosted my confidence, therefore my magick will work better..hopefully
 
 
Shanghai Quasar
08:54 / 26.03.04
You say you saw another sigil forming in the murk before you cast your own onto your eyelids? Tell us more about that, if you would.
 
 
The Prince of All Lies
12:45 / 26.03.04
I don't know what it was..it looked like a sigil, but it was small and I couldn't recognize it...then suddenly it morphed and then disappeared-I'm pretty sure it wasn't any of the sigils I've casted..maybe it's one of the Invisibles' hidden sigils that I picked up while reading it..who knows. Has that ever happened to you?
 
 
DonBacchus
14:35 / 26.03.04
Thraxx,check out the Liminal Gnosis chapter in Sherwin's Theatre of Magick.You can download a pdf version at http://www.philhine.org.uk/writings/index_e-books.html
You might find it helpfull.
 
 
The Prince of All Lies
21:00 / 26.03.04
thanks, I just flipped through it and it seemed really interesting..

Tonight I'll try to meditate just for the sake of it, since yesterday I didn't get any results (too much lust for result and distracting things). I'll keep you guys updated on the results of my explorations.
 
 
Shanghai Quasar
07:18 / 27.03.04
I'm not a great user or abuser of sigil psychotechnology, but I will say that a foreign sigil showing up during your meditation fascinates me. If it was from the Invisibles, well, that must've been quite the baptism.
 
 
The Prince of All Lies
13:04 / 27.03.04
I've had some other weird experiences with the Invisibles, like reading the issue where Edith dies and King Mob states that her time of death was 11:23, then looking at the clock and realizing it was 11:23..that was some weird synchronicity...I also had a dream where I saw the timesuit and heard a voice saying some weird things and saying a name I've never heard in my life.
 
 
The Prince of All Lies
21:43 / 27.03.04
Do any of you guys know if there's any difference between creating sigils in your own language or your second language? I speak spanish, but english to me is more than a secondary language, I tend to think and talk in english a lot. I'm asking cause it's easier to make sigils in english because spanish words tend to be longer and there are more connectors. I made some sigils in english today and I was hesitant to cast them without checking if you guys have tried doing it. I'd hate to wait for the effects of a sigil for months just to realize later they wouldn't work.
 
 
Shanghai Quasar
01:01 / 28.03.04
Sigils in a second language? I don't see why you should have any problems. More "advanced" magicians have been known to use foreign language incantation in their work, and they can claim to have just as much success as the sigil users. Hell, it's a fair bet that a large chunk of them don't even know what half their incantations actually mean. Ad astra per aspera.

As to the synchronicity, yes, I'll have to agree with you on that. Weird stuff.
 
 
C.Elseware
07:38 / 29.03.04
Not read much invisibles. But in 24hour clock, of course, that time is 23:23

I think I'll leave it a while yet before I try hebrew or enochian sigils...
 
 
vamp jesse
22:37 / 01.04.04
Hi,my names vampire jesse i've been into chaos magic only 4 a little while so im a little confused.
 
 
zeropoint
00:13 / 02.04.04
Hi! First time posting on Barbelith.
If your just getting started in chaos magic I recommend the book "Holographic Universe" by Michael Talbot. I'm sure this is familiar with some of the posters here. The book is on the speculative side of things in relation to our interaction with the universe(then again isn't most physics?). Yet, its dealings with mind in relation to frequency,memory and imagination has merit for anyone involved in magical workings. As to your experience with gnosis and envisioning the sigil. Keep doing what your doing. Anything has a degree of substance even if it as latent memory of something you've seen before.

Glad to find a decent forum as this one. Haven't discussed anything related to chaos magic in years.
 
 
The Prince of All Lies
03:08 / 03.04.04
NEWBIE UPDATE:
I had a brief period (3 or 4 days) in which I couldn't reach a "not thinking"/gnosis state during meditation(still don't know how to label my experiences). It was mostly due to external influences and too much mental activity. I found that when I'm tired or not overly-stimulated I get into that state pretty easily (between 7-15 minutes of sitting meditation, zazen style).
The last couple of nights, I've reached that state, and it felt like a part of my mind was asleep, but I was still aware of outer influences, it's just that the world seemed to have been turned down a notch. I saw spontaneous images, a red haired woman whom I didn't recognize (actually, I don't think I saw her red hair, cause the image was like a glow in the dark image, but I felt her hair was red) and yesterday I saw a baby-like face, though it seemed to shift and looked older a second later. Maybe it means I'm having a baby with a redhead (I'm not gonna object to that), or maybe they're "entities", though I've only previously encountered one during gnosis and one in a nightmare, so I'm not sure.
After seeing the "baby" last night, I tried to let my mind wander and not think about it or try to rationalize it. Another image appeared in my head, but this time it was different, I was watching a scene in first person perspective, I could see hands (as if they were my own) reaching for something in one of those supermarket vegetables shelves-thingies. That was really weird, but the experience seemed very real, it was more like a dream or a visualization than the previous thing I've seen during gnosis (which tend to morph/shift, aren't clearly defined, and seem colorless). So this was more like a lucid dream, in a sense. In fact, my gnosis experiences make me think of a lucid dream in a more controlled atmosphere.

If you have any similar experiences, please share them, it wull help me a lot.
 
  
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