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Can just reading (or writing) about certain types of magic be dangerous?

 
 
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01:15 / 23.03.04
One thing that has been on my mind for quite some time now is whether reading about magick can have any effects on one's psyche. I once read somewhere that everything time you read something new your brain undergoes changes (can't remember where I read this), but anyway I can't help but wonder if reading about certain "darker" threads of magic can have any potentially dangerous effects on the reader.

This particular concern of mine actually goes back to my childhood when I first became interested in magic. There was a book in my school library called "White Magic Black Magic" or something like that, and I took the book home one day and read it, and I recall there being chapters satanism and how to turn yourself into a werewolf and things like that (what such a book was doing in a children's grade school library is still something I do not understand). After reading the book I became worried that just by reading stuff like that I could become possessed by Satan (keep in mind I was very young at the time and since then I've read about things that make satan seem warm and cuddly). A similiar incident occured a few years ago when I was getting into Throbbing Gristle and they recommended Aleister Crowley and stuff. I recall thumbing through a Crowley book at Borders or something very nervously, afraid that I'd look at some weird symbol or something and demons would manifest... If only it were that easy.

Robert Anton Wilson said that many people read Crowley but never go about actually performing the rituals and techniques he writes about (of which I am a guilty party, alas). RAW's a pretty smart guy so I don't think that just reading about these darker schools of magic can have any physical danger, but I think that if any danger exists at all it's more a psychological one, ie obsession and things of that nature. A lot of my interest in magic is mostly academic, as I like reading odd things and sometimes it gives me creative ideas for my art, even though I may not actually practice it/believe in it (consider the recent thread on the Voudoun Gnostic Workbook in which I said I was chiefly interested in reading about Baron Zaraguin and the scorpian loa, not actually evoking/invoking them).

Which brings me, inevitably, here. In recent threads over the last few months I've brought up the topic about the qliphoth and my interest in them. The first time I read about them was in Dion Fortune's "Psychic Self-Defense", the first occult book I read in my self-initiation, and she seemed to view them as sinks in which all the ills of men collected, or something along those lines. The impression that I got was they were something I'd rather not investigate. However, I soon got into Grant Morrison's comic "The Filth" which awakened inside me an interest in the qabalah and the so-called "Abyss", and the notion of confronting one's dark side and incorporating it into one's self (sadly I tried to purge it, as I related in a recent thread, but this only brought it back with more fury then before!) Inevitably my paths crossed again with the qliphoth.

Before I go on here I'd like to say that very recently I've completed a nearly 400 page book that I started a year ago. This book I will not publish as it was merely practice to prove that yes, I could type a full-lenght book, and also because it was still very much influenced by my literary heroes, such as Burroughs, Wilson, Grant Morrison and others (and I'm not sure the world, at the moment, needs anymore stories about alternative occult gnostic terrorists saving the universe from archon-like deities and reptilian hybrids). However the book was also a hypersigil in textual format meant to introduce change in my life. In the book a female version of myself (a fiction suit, in other words) starts off in a boring, mind-numbing reality, working in a supermarket (like I was at the time) when one day she meets a fellow employee who is a magician and also a member of a secret occult group trying to save the universe from a reptilian invasion (I was reading a lot of David Icke at the time, leading to hysterical paranoia last May: long story). But anyway this version of me went through CHANGE: losing her virginity, becoming an accomplished magician, leading a more interesting life, shedding painful memories through NLP techniques and Reichian therapy and what not. And now, after a year of writing this thing (which grew into a really odd-ball obsession) I no longer work in a supermarket, now I work at a bookstore. Recently I've made friends on-line with OTO members and, in real life, some of my co-workers are into the occult. I've been studying NLP and using it to help myself get past painful memories, and soon plan to begin Reichian breathwork. I've also had luck with sigils, through my own methods as discussed in another thread.

You may just wonder what this has to do with the qliphoth? Well, in this book there were 10 chapters, each related to a sephiroth on the Tree of Life, chapter 1 being malkuth and working my way up (each chapter corresponded to certain attributes to the appropriate sephiroth, I should add). However, I decided there should be a chapter for the Abyss so I added an epilogue starring myself, after shedding the fiction suit. In this chapter I wrote myself traveling to the reverse of the Tree of Life, walking through the 22 tunnels of Set and witnessing the various atrocities of each one (some of which I created) before speaking to God (which in this case was a sentinent female toilet overflowing with shit and vaginal secretions) before I was "flushed" into her "digestive system" and I crossed the Abyss, dissolving at the end in a pool of static before being reborn as a phoenix at the end, then transported back to this world enlightened. I read about the 22 tunnels of Set from "The Magician's Dictionary" and added them to the epilogue to spice it up a bit, so to speak. Later on I began reading some of Kenneth Grant's stuff about them and then I read an essay (linked on here recently) in which the writer put forth the idea that certain writers/poets/artists acted as channelers who somehow picked up on the frequencies of these qliphoptic forces and manifested them into this reality, usually at the exspense of their sanity and nervous system. It was around this point where I began to think "You know, maybe writing about myself going through those tunnels wasn't the smartest thing I've ever done" (especially when one considers the fact that the things I write about very often seem to manifest into this dimension, as the whole "Punkmodernist" hypersigil experiment proved).

So now I wonder if I should be on guard against these things due to my reading/writing about them.... I wonder if these qliphoptic forces are actually a threat only if one consciously goes about evoking them through ritual means. I mean, I have enough troubles as it is without worrying about my sanity or soul being destroyed and my nervous system being attacked! maybe I shouldn't read about these things at all as they usually just make me worry unnecessarily... Just tonite I was reading through Kenneth Grant's "The Magical Revival" and, I don't know if I misread him or something, but he seems to think that the ejaculation of semen into this sphere of reality can result in the breeding of vampires or qliphoptic entities elsewhere... Great, now I need to worry about just what it is I'm bringing about during masturbation. What next, damn it?!?! Anyway, I've decided to avoid such schools of thought for the immediate future and focus on more safer stuff like NLP and things of that nature. Once I get through this chaotic period and feel more confident and comfortable with myself (to say nothing of my sanity) I can go back to reading about the slimy, tentacled thingies.
 
 
trouser the trouserian
04:54 / 23.03.04
So now I wonder if I should be on guard against these things due to my reading/writing about them....

Well, I feel that if, as you indicate, you've a tendency to get worried/paranoid easily then yes, maybe you should avoid reading - say too much Kenneth Grant - for a while. Whilst I wouldn't go all out and say that reading about certain forms of magic is in itself 'dangerous' - it can throw you into some weird states of consciousness if you are easily affected by what you're reading. You mentioned Dion Fortune's Psychic Self-Defence - well that book is actually high on my "don't read" list. I've known a few folk become convinced that they were under "psychic attack" after reading it. One guy was so bad he was interpreting every rattle of the window as a 'sign' of being under attack.

I wonder if these qliphoptic forces are actually a threat only if one consciously goes about evoking them through ritual means.

Actually, ritual is not the primary means of accessing the tunnels of set - ole KG is more into the use of creative dreaming/willed derangement.

If you're going to peek into the abyss, don't be surprised it if winks back (sorry Nietschze).
 
 
LykeX
05:07 / 23.03.04
No offense absence; but I think that may be related more to your friend than the book. Psychic self-defense was my first occult book as well, and though it's horribly judgemental at times, it great with regards to analytical techniques. One of the things she mentions in it is that you should only think of psychic attack when everything else has been ruled out.
That being said, I won't recommend it. You could probably find something better.

Now, about the original topic; obviously what you read affects your head. If not, I wouldn't be here. But, like you said, if you don't actually evoke the bastards, they probably have more interesting things to do. I'd be careful about the hypersigil thing, though, that could turn ugly.
But hey, live a little. Let us know if you're possesed or anything
 
 
trouser the trouserian
07:05 / 23.03.04
if you don't actually evoke the bastards, they probably have more interesting things to do.

Aha, well the point I was trying to make was that with regards to the qlippoth - particularly in the way that Kenneth Grant presents them - you don't actually have to formally evoke them in order to come into contact with them. It's something of a misnomer IMo to view them as entities or forces, they are more (in my experience anyway) akin to states of consciousness into which one can easily slip. And since you mentioned hypersigils, LykeX, I'd consider Grant's typhonian trilogies to be a very effective hypersigil.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
09:22 / 23.03.04
Mmmm... In my (admittedly rather limited) experience, the main danger associated with books of magick is an occult version of the malady suffered by the hero of Jerome K. Jerome's Three Men In A Boat.

He spends a rainy afternoon reading a medical encyclopedia, and comes away firmly convinced that he has every single disease therein--except housemaid's knee. His doctor's prescription? Take a holiday.

Sometimes it's necessary to take a step back from magickal texts written by others to clear your head, get some perspective, and centre yourself. The books aren't going anywhere.
 
 
trouser the trouserian
10:18 / 23.03.04
he has every single disease therein--except housemaid's knee. His doctor's prescription? Take a holiday.

LOL! Good point Mordant. Occult books can be like psychology texts in this regard. Too much Goetia and .. Oh, no. what's that gruesome, bloated shape looming in my doorway? .. Is it Belial, come to claim my soul? Oops, hi boss.
 
 
Nietzsch E. Coyote
10:28 / 23.03.04
To be honest I would say the qliphoth was evoked more or less when you read the filth. Its just part of the youniverse working itself through. You probably have given yourself a little trouble by including it in your hypersigil novel but I doubt it will be too bad.

Reading about magick can be dangerous if the writing was itself magick.
 
 
illmatic
10:37 / 23.03.04
Just thought I'd point out that doing magick doesn't necessairly mean poking about in the outer depths. Why not focus on something else for a while that you find empowering or challenging, something closer to your day to day experience.
 
 
illmatic
10:41 / 23.03.04
I know you know that anyway.... just went back and read your last para. Oops! Anyway, I think writing a big thing about it can be seen to be kind of evocative as your mind and imagination are moving along those tracks for a bit... but I wouldn't worry about it too much unless you start to actually experience adverse effects.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
12:00 / 23.03.04
I had this problem when I first read Stone Cold Steve Austin's autobiography, ever since that ominous day I've been obsessing over the urge to drink loads of cheap beer and slam all you mealy mouthed cotton assed sum bitches through the spanish announcers desk. What do you think I should do?
 
 
C.Elseware
12:33 / 23.03.04
Everything you allow (or fail to stop) entering your perceptions will change you. At some point you may choose to take responsibility for how you change, and filtering your exposure may be part of it.

Identity is more fragile than most people think. You are not who you were five years ago. In five years time you'll be someone new. You can have an influence now on how future you turns out.

The single most potentially harmful media I've been exposed to was Michael Moorcock's "The Golden Barge". Some people could probably read it as light fantasy. For me it caused the biggest low point of my life since I stopped being a teenager (everything was so much more real and immeadiate back then). It took about a week to just put myself back together. I made it fine, but it's a cautionary tale to remember that a few words can have that kinda effect.

Of course, you could become hard and not let anything in. Which would suck for so many other reasons.
 
 
rising and revolving
13:32 / 23.03.04
Gnosis changes you - that's what makes it gnosis. It can come through ritual, rehersal, pain, struggle, or as the result of just the right words at just the right time.

I've glimpsed a piece of graffiti and had it change my life - so sure thing, reading about magic can cause change. But you know, so could an episode of Will and Grace, so I'd relax if I were you. Certainly writing a hypersigil about it is a definate act of willed magic - and you're starting to see the results, it sounds.

If I were you, I'd write a "post epilogue" where-in you become a more confidant, magical, wise person - Adam Quondam, if you will, man perfected and elevated. Make that 400 page hypersigil work for YOU. Of course, you might not want that outcome - really, what I'm saying is work out your desires, then make the hypersigil cough them up, instead of letting it ride you into the qlippoth.

Unless, of course, that's what you really want. In which case, relax, enjoy the ride and send me a postcard.
 
 
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14:57 / 23.03.04
Gravitas, I will admit that I do have a tendency to get worried about things very easily, which can, at times, turn me into a paranoid mess (for example, there was a thread on here last April/May about a reptilian invasion or something like that that coincided with all the David Icke stuff I was reading at the time and that messed with my head for a bit, though apparently that was all nonsense in the end). As for weird states of consciousness, that pretty much describes my train of thought these last few years or so...

Regarding "Psychic Self-Defense", when I made the decision to start getting into magic I decided it would be a good idea to make sure I had some protection in case things went wrong (coincidentally I think William S. Burroughs recommended that book). But I can see how it can cause more harm then good, at times.

Mordant, I can relate to that story about the medical encyclopedia (actually I think Fortune mentioned it in "Psychic Self-Defense"... curious synchronicity there...) My parents actually had to hide the family medical encyclopedia because of my infamous obsessions with my health (not like that did much, I just spent 4 hours going through internet medical sites until I was convinced I was suffering from 30 different bizarre conditions!)

Illmatic, yes, as I said I'm looking into other areas at the moment then just magic (NLP, more Reich stuff, and I really want to start reading about the Sufis and things like that) in fact the last few months now I've mostly been reading books on memetics and science and things of that nature (I've recently got off that trip and gone back to reading fiction). I realize that there is more to magic then just the outer depths, but for some reason such depths do have a way of gripping their mind. Of course after reading a bit about these things my attitude now is "Okay, I'm definetly not ready for that!"

Which brings us to the epilogue of my personal hypersigil. Obviously it was put in to add a sense of completeness to the Tree of Life schema, but my attitude towards these things kind of mirrors Grant Morrison's opinions on Reichian therapy as expressed in the interview in "Anarchy for the Masses": That the only way through is through the shit. At the time I was writing the epilogue I was exiting one life and entering another: Moving on from college and the part-time job I had for years into a full-time job and (hopefully soon) financial independence from my parents. However (and I've said this about a hundred times before) there's still parts of my old life clinging to me that are trying as hard as they possibly can to bring me screaming back to old things I've left behind me now, and resisting this is very draining. Each major change in my life is marked by poor sleep, feelings of insanity and very bad health (for example, the summer before I went to college, the summer after I graduated college, getting a full-time job, etc.) each step brings me further and further away from my parents, which is a good thing as you have to step out of their shadow sometime and luve your own life, something I've realized recently. That's why I've always related to Grof's BPM theory, the idea that people go through symbolic births and rebirths. But I'm babbling.

Anyway, to symbolize these changes in my life I decided to have myself undergo a shamanic experience of sorts in which the personality/ego whatever is destroyed and rebuilt. Because I'm not a shaman and don't really know how to actually do these things (how the fuck do you actually cross an abyss anyway?) I thought I'd just have myself do it in the damn book (though I wonder if writing is just a poor substitute for the real thing... I imagine it must be more fun to actually have sex rather then just write about it, but maybe I'm wrong). I viewed the abyss experience as a good metaphor for the end of one life and the start of another, which is why I programmed a happy ending for myself at the end, just to be safe. In retrospect though I'm not quite sure I'm ready for the total dissolution of my personality. I mean, maybe I'm mistaken but it seems most magicians who have claimed to cross the abyss have generally been practicing magic for years and are confident at it and are ready for it to happen, whereas I'm still lacking in experience. I'd like to add here that I have no delusions about actually crossing an abyss, it was just a text version of myself that did. However, I do feel that these changes occuring now are just the tip of the iceberg and that very soon I'll be confronting every worse fear I've ever had. Hell, I've been off health care for a month now so that's been worrying me (April 24 can't get here soon enough imo) and, I can't say why this is, but I do have a feeling I'll be losing my virginity very soon.

Gypsy Lantern, is the sarcasm really necessary?
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
16:03 / 23.03.04
Gypsy Lantern, is the sarcasm really necessary?

Absolutely.

And there was a point in there if you'd care to notice it.
 
 
Chiropteran
16:21 / 23.03.04
Gypsy Lantern: Yeah, I caught that...

And Sypha Nadon, to go waaay back to the first post, I think I read and obsessed over that same book in elementary school. Had it practically memorized. I almost want to try to track down a copy on AddAll.com, just for old time's sake.

~L
 
 
cusm
17:43 / 23.03.04
Reading absolutely can change your consciousness. I do it all the time, on purpose. Though it is a matter of how receptive you make yourself to what you are reading. I mean, if you are reading something for the gramatical style of it, you're not likely to get the same things out of the read as one reading as a part of a conscious ritual working with declared intent at self change from the experience. It is as you wish it to be.

The other point being fear. If you provoke the fear response, you are no longer in control of it. If you read about the slimys in the tunnels of set and think "well, that was an interesting way to look at it", you digest, perhaps learn something, and move on. If you find yourself obsessing over whether the dark aeons of the anti-gebura are about to manifest and wreck your life, that fear is the thing that can allow just that to happen. Check the fear, especially with the dark and wiggley stuff, and you'll dodge a lot of these issues.
 
 
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02:18 / 24.03.04
I'm not exactly sure who wrote that book, but I think it may of been the guy who wrote "Aztec" (Gary Jennings?) It was so long ago I'm sure some details are blurred...

cusm, you have a good point about fear. maybe the best way to deal with these things is to laugh about it. Of course, it's kinda hard to laugh about things that can destroy your soul and wreck your nervous system. I dunno, maybe they could make plush qliphothic beanie babies. hey, it worked for Lovecraft's monsters...

Point taken, Gypsy Lantern, though usually when I'm taking the piss aboout these things I post them at forums where all my friends are non-magic users, who then proceed to mock me with no mercy for believing this bullshit.
 
 
trouser the trouserian
07:13 / 24.03.04
...it's kinda hard to laugh about things that can destroy your soul and wreck your nervous system.

Erm, isn't this slightly over-the-top? I mean, yes, working with the Tunnels of Set can spin you into some weird spaces, but destroy your soul? I think you're somewhat over-dramatising, Sypha.
 
 
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23:32 / 24.03.04
H'mm, odd you ask me that gravitas, as it was one of your links to an article ("Monsterous Souls") in a recent thread on the qliphoth that first put the notion in my head:

"The unprepared initiate can face insanity, destruction and the loss of his "soul" as a result of these encounters. However, there is a third way that combines both of these paths. That is the way of the artist or poet. Certain artists' neurons are so arranged as to act as antennae to "earth" these forces or invoke them and then to express their power through art. This can wreak havoc on an artist's nervous system but ultimately, through the expression of these forces they allow the rest of us a glimpse into this infernal domain. Lautreamont and Rimbaud are just these kinds of artists."

I'd have to say, from a rational perspective, that any weakening of my immune system is probably due to too much staying indoors and depression and not challenging myself (see Howard Bloom's "The Lucifer Principle"). Then again, for all I know maybe people like Kenneth Grant are just nuts. Just because he experiences something one way doesn't mean that it manifests that way everytime... I mean, in situations like these everyone's nervous system interprets the event differently (and just for the record I've never seen or had conversations with gods, angels, demons, aliens or anything like that).
One line that always interested me from "The Invisibles" was on page one where a character says "Some people will say anything to sound interesting". Sometimes I wonder if people like Grant or Betriaux fall into this category. I really refuse to believe that mere masturbation breeds demons or vampires... Just because some guy has written a lot of odd inpenetrable books doesn't make him some kind of magus or anything... Though they are interesting reads, I'll give him that much.

So much for avoiding this type of stuff, I just saw the Vodoun Gnostic Workbook being sold on Amazon for $270 dollars so I ordered it (now the number one book on my rare book list is "Outside the Circles of Time"... you know, I really hope that Phil Hine's books are rare and expensive in the future). Fortunetly I know Betriaux is nuts ahead of time so I can approach this work with a little more confidence... I don't think I'll be getting any illumination off of this, to be honest, as I have no interest in practicing voodoo at all. I believe in learning from the mistakes of others and Grant Morrison definetly made a mistake communicating with scorpian loa... And for what? To write a scene I probably could have written under the right frame of mind? I know it's good to write from experience but that can be limiting as reality is usually pretty dull and if everyone followed that maxim, then you'd have authors like Thomas Harris eating people. Actually, that sounds kind of cool.

(Not that all aspects of voodoo are so destructive or brutal, I know. I don't want to stereotype).
 
 
Shanghai Quasar
03:58 / 25.03.04
Why not destroy the soul and leave the host a gibbering wreck, gravitas? Perhaps it is you who are not taking this whole business serious enough, yes. You do not understand that the Great Old Ones... no, I can say no more.

With regard to the original query, "Can just reading (or writing) about certain types of magic be dangerous?", the answer may very well be yes, depending on what angle you're coming from. There is the danger of offending those who take said brand of magic very seriously. There is the danger of driving yourself into a paranoid fit and giving yourself a heart attack. There is the danger of coming across a mysterious text in the safety deposit box of your recently deceased great uncle and unleashing a terrible evil upon the world.

Being alive, that is dangerous. Being dead, not so much.
 
 
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04:13 / 25.03.04
The Great Old Ones? Really now... unless you're being sarcastic.

I dunno, these days when the world gets too heavy for me I just go to X-Entertainment and laugh at the reviews of bad movies. Like Tim Curry in "The Worst Witch".
 
 
Shanghai Quasar
04:20 / 25.03.04
You'd better watch out; you better go hide.
And Elder Sign's needed for this Yuletide
Great Old Ones are comin to town.

They're making a fist and shaking it twice.
They're going to hit you, naughty or nice.
Great Old Ones are coming to town.

They're bringing ugly Shuggoths,
And horrid Deep Ones too,
Shub Niggurath is waking up
And so is Cthulhu!

So you better watch out, you'd better go 'way,
Before the big guy comes up from R'lyeh.
Great Old Ones are coming to town.
 
 
--
04:31 / 25.03.04
I always liked the Cthulhu camptown races song myself.
 
 
trouser the trouserian
07:55 / 25.03.04
Oh yes, Monstrous Souls - an interesting article, though not without its flaws. The idea that certain artists, visionaries, etc., can act as 'channels'for the qlippoth is one that crops up time and time again in Grant's work - HP Lovecraft being one of his favourite 'proofs'. When Grant talks about artists like Lovecraft or Rimbaud in terms of having "withdrew from the struggle." - there seems to me to be an implicit conceit that 'magicians' can survive doing this sort of thing better than artists, which is not necessarily the case.
I posted the link to that particular article as I thought it highlighted very well the creative derangement 'formula' that Grant whiffles on about in his trilogies. I feel there's a big difference between the purely 'magical' approach of say, exploring the tunnels solely through astral excursions in the safety of one's bedsit, and - going out and living life to the full - arguably the approach taken by Rimbaud, et al. I can't help wondering what Grant would say about later artists - Francis Bacon, William S. Burroughs, or Kathy Acker for example.

I really refuse to believe that mere masturbation breeds demons or vampires..
Good.
I'd be wary of dismissing Grant's work out of hand, but he does have some ideas which seem rather quaint by contemporary standards.

Grant Morrison definetly made a mistake communicating with scorpian loa... And for what? To write a scene.
I think its more likely that Grant did the work with the scorpion loa a few years prior to writing Invisibles.

I know it's good to write from experience but that can be limiting as reality is usually pretty dull...

Well of course, that depends on one's 'reality' doesn't it?
 
 
trouser the trouserian
08:32 / 25.03.04
Bertiaux? Nuts? judge for yourself
 
 
--
13:24 / 25.03.04
Well, maybe nuts isn't the right word, but definetly imbalanced. I'm still trying to decide if he either a.) really believes in what he says 100%, or b.) is some kind of discordian prankster. Then again I don't know the guy in real life so I can't really say. Don't know why he seems so upset about Kenneth Grant there, I thought they were friends.

I don't dismiss everything Grant says (and keep in mind I've only read "The Magical Revival"... I'm still waiting for "Nightside of Eden" to come in)... As I said he's interesting but there are things about his work I don't agree with (I can't claim this as fact, but I think I read somewhere that one of his books had slightly homophobic/anti-sodomy connotations, but I may be wrong here). My first exposure to Grant was a looonggg review on some website called Sword of Horus, which seemed to view him as a qliphoptic-possessed, Chronozonin obsessed black magician who had chosen to wallow in the abyss instead of crossing it (they were really nitpicky about his gematria too).

As for Grant Morrison, I'm just repeating what I heard in interviews, but of course it's debatable how much is fact and how much is fiction there. He said that he was researching the voodoo issue shortly after the series began and that he accidentally contacted the scorpian loas or something like that, which made him sick for a year and ultimetly climaxed with him in the hospital. Or something like that. Then again, I've seen interviews where he's said that he only started trying drugs in the 90's, and others where he said he first tried drugs in '85, so who knows (actually, a better question would probably be "who cares?")
 
  
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