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SETI: search for extraterrestrial intelligence

  
 
grant
15:01 / 22.03.04
I just came across this story on CNN, about Microsoft's co-founder Paul Allen giving SETI $13.5 million.

I'm wondering how they're going to use that money, and what it would be like if they actually found something.

What might they discover? And what would they do about it?
 
 
Grey Area
15:16 / 22.03.04
The BBC reports on this too. Apparently the money will go towards the construction of a larger radio telescope array. Even if they don't find any ET's, there's no end to the things a larger array will be able to be used for.

Will they find something? Even chance. I can't for a moment believe that we're the only place that has spawned life in this corner of the galaxy.
 
 
Jub
10:50 / 24.03.04
In Star Trek, we see how the humanoid species are related, by a parent race who had lived millions of years before, and when they reached into space found they were alone. They then made different species by altering their genetic code, giving each species particular traits, so that say, the klingons were their aggressive side, the vulcans their logical side, the humans their basic all round good guys attributes (Yay!!) and so on.

Whilst I agree with Grey Area's postulation that there must be life somewhere out there, the idea that they are going to appear one day in a spaceship and look a bit like us seems incredibly far fetched. Who's to say how life would evolve on other planets and what form that life would take. On top of this, who's to say sentience is a natural progression? As well as this, who's to say this sentient life form which we may or may not recognise as life, would actually want to leave their planet? The very concept of alien is human - well anthropomorphic.

As for the original question - I guess SETI's remit is a toughie. I think they're about a billionth of the way through checking the stars in our galaxy, so still a bit of work to do.
 
 
sleazenation
11:00 / 24.03.04
I can't for a moment believe that we're the only place that has spawned life in this corner of the galaxy.

You're right, there is a small unremarkable rock on the far side of the universe, many billions of light years away where a type of algae once formed.
 
 
Lurid Archive
11:24 / 24.03.04
Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that at this stage it has become clear that intelligent and developed life is...hard to find. What I mean is that any reasonably adavanced civilisation that was within a few dozen light years would be bound to produce EM emmissions. (I think that is a reasonable non-anthropomorphising assumption.) So that leaves us with a few possibilities.

There isn't any intelligent and technologically developed life apart from us. Or it is too far away. Or it is hiding.

The first possibility is depressing, in a way. The second possibility contains a great deal of variation. If the nearest intelligent life is a billion light years away, then it might as well not exist. On the other hand, if it is a hundred light years away, then we might possibly detect radio signals in a century or two - unlikely, but possible. The third is believed by some UFO enthusiasts. While not entirely implausible, I think the actual evidence is extremely shaky.

So, essentially, SETI must be operating on the off chance that there is something out there but probably devoting energy to all the other uses a radio telescope can be put to.
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
11:51 / 24.03.04
The third is believed by some UFO enthusiasts. While not entirely implausible, I think the actual evidence is extremely shaky.

Um... what evidence? If the proposed explanation is that we've uncovered no evidence whatsoever of intelligent extraterrestrial life because they're hiding, surely, by its own definition, there's no evidence at all for the proposed explanation.

If you mean that it's not very likely - I think the proposition is only there to provide an alternative to the There Is, But They're Too Far Away To Talk!//Bollocks! debate - There Is, But They Don't Want To Talk To Us! It's not really debatable as a proposition, because it's based upon supposition as to why a hypothetically totally unknown quantity acts/reacts to stimuli.
 
 
Jub
12:08 / 24.03.04
What I mean is that any reasonably adavanced civilisation that was within a few dozen light years would be bound to produce EM emmissions. (I think that is a reasonable non-anthropomorphising assumption.)

Lurid, I think this is an anthroponorphising assumption. As far as I know, SETI uses other ways to detect Intelligence. A good start granted, but not necessarily conclusive.

Our own planet didn't start producing EM emissions until what..? 1900 - in large numbers. I'm not even sure of their scope, I mean I'm guessing that EM emissions took off after Faraday (in the 1830s) and Edison (in the 1880s) and have been growing ever since.

I don't think we were in the dark ages before electricity though. Nor do I think it marks the pinicle of human endeavor.
 
 
Tom Coates
12:09 / 24.03.04
It is called Acton.
 
 
Jub
13:28 / 24.03.04
What is? The pinnicle of human endeavor?! Acton?!
 
 
grant
13:34 / 24.03.04
I'm also wondering if the way we use EMF would necessarily be replicated elsewhere.

It seems like, say, on a planet with a stronger or more organized magnetic field of its own, it'd be possible to just send signals along those lines of force rather than transmitting your own. (As you can probably tell, I'm not an engineer by a long shot, so this might be a bushel of hooey.) Or, if circumstances conspired to make fiberoptics easier, they might use light instead. It's pretty hard to say what might keep a civilized bunch from using radiowaves, but I don't think they're the only option for long distance communication.

Or am I misunderstanding what SETI is looking for?
 
 
Jub
13:49 / 24.03.04
I think you're on the money grant. I believe the SETI project does use radiowaves as it's primarily searching tool, and if it's not too presumptious, I think we're agreeing on the other points - which is, that whilst that's fine and dandy - it doesn't necessarily mean anything as the other guys may not use radiowaves.

[threadrot] "bushel of hooey" - nice one centurion, like it, like it [/threadrot].
 
 
Grey Area
14:08 / 24.03.04
This is from the SETI@Home site FAQ:

What sort of spectrum is currently being emitted by earth? Is that signal visible say 10 or 50 light years away? If SETI were on a planet say 10-50 light years from here and running this project there, would it be able to detect earth's signal (assuming it was looking in our direction)?

Earth is polluting space with radio and television signals that might be detected by nearby advanced civilizations, but it would be difficult for such a civilization to discover these signals if they only have Earth's current level of technology (eg: if they have an Arecibo like telescope and SETI@home like search).

Early TV shows like I Love Lucy and Ed Sullivan left the earth about 40 years ago, so have gone out 40 light years, reaching several thousand nearby stars. But these signals are relatively weak and SETI@home is not likely to detect the equivalent of Earth type TV transmitters, even on the nearest stars.

Earth's strongest transmitters might be somewhat easier to detect, such as those emitted by military radars, or some radio telescopes. The Arecibo telescope transmits very powerful signals when it is used as a radar system to study planets, asteroids and the ionosphere. These radar signals are powerful enough to be detected 10,000 light years away by searches like SETI@home, except for three big caveats:

a) The Arecibo transmissions are in a very tight beam (they are not omnidirectional, like TV and military radar), so they only cover a very small part of the sky at once (about a millionth of the total sky). It's is unlikely another civilization will be within one of these narrow beams.

b) The Arecibo transmitter's oldest signals left Earth about 30 years ago, so have only travelled 30 light years.

c) SETI@home is not searching the band of frequencies that the Arecibo transmitters utilize (although our older SERENDIP III program did survey one of those bands).

So what they'd be looking for is a targetted, high-power signal being sent out by another civilisation. Even if they do not use it communicate, I gather the assumption is that a radio telescope like the one at Arecibo is essential to any civilisation trying to examine the universe. Correct me if I'm wrong, but radio waves are pretty much a universal thing...electronic noise is being emitted by a lot of objects.

There's more technical detail about this in the faq, to be found here.
 
 
Jub
14:30 / 24.03.04
oh hang on - we're going round in circles!
Yes radio waves seem like a good idea - BUT - to assume that an "extra terrestial intelligence" would use them the way we talking about seems incredinly anthropomorphic - no?
 
 
Lurid Archive
16:05 / 24.03.04
Jub: You are right, of course. It is entirely possible that there could be an intelligent civilisation with no electricity. But I meant technological advancement relevant to space and communication - we are at about the bottom rung of such a scale.

Also, I think that using eletricity and radio waves is bound to produce some stray signals though I'm not sure about Grant's suggestion.
 
 
Cloned Christ on a HoverDonkey
01:52 / 06.04.04
I think the rationale behind the SETI search parameters is based on the question; "What kind of signal would we broadcast if we wanted to announce our presence to the galaxy?"

As we don't currently have many (any?) forms of wireless communications that don't utilize the EM spectrum, then that's where we have to look. It makes sense. We can't really search for signals broadcast using a medium we don't even know about, can we?

It's all very well saying that we're anthropomorphising, but how else would you suggest we search for ETIs? Or would you suggest that we don't bother looking at all?

With current technology SETI is our best and only shot at finding Thaaarg The Pusillanimous, surely.
 
 
scitechdude
03:47 / 06.04.04
To answer the topic's original question: Of course we should be looking for them. We might never find them, but we wouldn't be good scientists if we didn't look.

We're searching the electromagnetic spectrum because that's currently the only place we know how to look. It's like the drunken man searching for his house keys under the street lamp: that's where the light is. Until we can figure out how to pass messages through the spatial tears predicted by string theory, or manipulate gravity waves, or teleport information across space instantaneously through quantum entanglement, electromagnetic waves are the only game in town.

My fear is that any civilization we're likely to hear from has advanced beyond EM technology to one of these other methods -- and that they won't bother to broadcast on the legacy channels just for our sake.

For a scientifically grounded but imaginative look at what might happen if we did receive a signal, Carl Sagan's Contact is probably the best science-fiction treatment out there.

|www.travelswithrhody.net|
 
 
---
07:23 / 06.04.04
Contact is fucking amazing. I was just going to mention it aswell. Maybe the story is party based on truth?

SETI haven't said anything because they're probably own3d by the government and have evidence confiscated regularly by the MIB's.

ALIENS ARE ALREADY FUCKING HERE!!!

Um.....no i can't give you solid evidence though so yeah, i must be wrong.

If some people stopped fucking around with science so much and got into magic they'd see them. I think i've seen several, but all but one of the several was when i was on drugs so you can count that out if you want. (but they could still of been real)

In fact, the funniest thing is that pictures of aliens will be all over the place on the net but some people just will not believe that any of them could possibly be true.

SETI has found stuff, ask your local government why you don't have any evidence and you'll get a load of shit from somebody who probably works for a bunch of aliens.
 
 
---
07:24 / 06.04.04
Again, if your interested in aliens and SETI, Contact is a genuinely amazing film.
 
 
grant
15:28 / 06.04.04
Cloned Christ On A HoverDonkey : As we don't currently have many (any?) forms of wireless communications that don't utilize the EM spectrum, then that's where we have to look. It makes sense. We can't really search for signals broadcast using a medium we don't even know about, can we?



Well, what if they're using lasers? Beacon fires? Light? I know that's technically an EM medium, but it's not what SETI is looking for. And I don't know how we'd look for that, what with all the *other* lights out there from stars and whatnot.
 
 
Cloned Christ on a HoverDonkey
18:34 / 06.04.04
That's exactly what I mean, grant; we can't detect their infra-planet communications, so we've got to hope that they're trying to contact us, or anyone else who might be in their neighbourhood.

I doubt they'd use lasers, as they are too directional & building a fire to signal other planets seems a little unlikely (if spectacular), so our only other option would be the radio spectrum (or thereabouts). What I was trying to argue was that we're not really anthropomorphising here, we're just being logical and using the only tools at our disposal.

It might be a miniscule chance, but that's surely better than sitting on our arses wondering.
 
 
Henningjohnathan
21:10 / 06.04.04
Is it possible that the extraterrestrials see this as one of the biggest telemarketing scams in the universe.

I can see one advanced species e-mailing all the others this message:

Re: Radio Broadcasts from the noisy third planet in the QWede23De stellar system

Message: Do not reply to these characters. They'll just want to sell you something.

As far as new forms of communication, I think that there may be some method of interdimensional or quantum particle system that we haven't thought about. The quantum system would probably be self contained and only utilized by the race itself with its specialized transponders.

Gravity however, fascinates me. It implies that every piece of matter in the universe is already connected. Perhaps they use a system that is a quantum level version of two cans connected by wire.
 
 
scitechdude
21:12 / 06.04.04
Actually researchers have been doing SETI in the optical wavelengths for a number of years. They tend to search for laser beacon signals in the visible and infrared parts of the EM spectrum. See the Columbia Optical SETI Observatory, the Optical SETI at Harvard project, the Optical SETI at Berkeley project, and the Lick Observatory Optical SETI Program.

|www.travelswithrhody.net|
 
  
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