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Underground > Temple >

Invading other people's dreams

15:05 / 17.03.04

Hi,
haven't posted here before... but I've read a few posts and wondered if this might be a good place to ask about something I've been wondering about for a while.
Does anyone think it might be possible to get inside another person's dream? now, there's two ways i could think of doing this. One would involve actually "invading" another's dream, astrally or something, I think I'd feel dubious about doing this if it was possible, as it would feel a bit like I was violating something private to that person.
The other way would be to pass a message into their dreams, of course this *may* be possible just by whispering something into their ear while they were sleeping... but I was looking for more imaginative ideas really. i don't think I'd have an ethical problem with this method. I write a lot of fiction with magical themes, although that term probably means something different to me than it does to you (but hey, isn't that half the point of it?)
Apologies if this isnt the kind of thing you're all into at all, just ignore me

17:22 / 17.03.04

I believe it's possible, though I haven't much experience in the area. I'm sure some of the dreamworkers around here will chime in with some ideas...

19:26 / 17.03.04

http://www.sentence-ov-desire.net/ volume-2-issue-2/volume-2-issue-2-article-8.html

That's the only article on this stuff that I've seen on the net. Not that I looked for it. Never tried this ritual though.

23:24 / 17.03.04

Absolutely possible...though you're right, its a gross invasion of psychic privacy. That said, before I swore off such odiousness the technique was a staple of my magickal seductions, and used to repeated, striking effect. This one is especially effacacious against mundanes; not only do they lack any serious 'firewall' against this manner of influence, but they are generally uncritical of the impact of their oneiric contents. A few well-timed erotic dreams are an amzing "foot in the door" as it were.

As for the distinction between astral home invasion and the "ghostly hovering and whispering in the ear" riff, there isn't much of one. Honestly, you're right, they're both...questionable.

23:54 / 18.03.04

Anton LaVey wrote about a process he used to present himself in people's dreams. I've used a few methods to fine effect, however I find that the ability to manipulate the context of your appearence in the dream is exceptionally difficult. The dreamer's subconcious opinion of you is tough to undermine. For example, if the dreamer finds you to be something of a turd, it's unlikely that they'll dream of taking you to disneyland. On the other side of the coin, if you think the dreamer in question is smitten, a few rounds of the astral nasty is cake-easy to produce.

Additionally, it's important that your target is not only asleep, but has been asleep for four or five hours to insure the REM state is underway. Good luck.

10:18 / 18.04.04

may I remind you of the threefold law?

above all else: that. is. rape.

and, as about magicks 'working well on mundanes':
as far as I see and realize it, magick has something to do with responsibility. responsibility - at least for me - has something to do with 'not believing you're better then somebody else'.
having a penis does not give you the right to rape.
having acces to oneiromantic states does not give you the right to mess around with other peoples dreams.

that said: consensually dreaming the same dream with another person is a cool - if often QUITE intimate - thing.

12:12 / 18.04.04

This one is especially effacacious against mundanes

Don't you mean Muggles?

22:20 / 18.04.04

Please, people. don't clutter the discussion with morality

Seriously, though, this could be used consensually. Think about it: 100% safe sex. Or you could use it to maintain a long distance relationship. Or to simply hang out with your friend.
The possibilities are endless.

XXII:X:II = XXX

03:01 / 19.04.04

I've heard about shared dreams, and I think that's about as moral as it gets. After that point, you're stepping into Freddy Krueger territory.

There was an episode of Star Trek: The Next Generation where some alien was able to dream-rape Troi and hide behind two facades, first of Riker and then his own father. Things get dicey with telepathy.

VJB2

04:11 / 19.04.04

Ahh, counselor Troy *drool*

21:09 / 19.04.04

Don't you mean Muggles?

Actually, I prefer "flatscans" or the possibly more diplomatic "neurotypicals".

Seriously, people, is this really the place for a magickal ethics lesson? There seems to be a vaguely chiding tone in some of these posts, an odor of 'whiter-robes-than-thou'; Biscuits asked a question, and the answer is: "Yes, invading dreams is possible." Nevermind that it's easy, fun and totally f**king wrong. ('course, back in the day I did much, much worse with magick... but I was young and foolish then. Now I'm old, remorseful and metaphysically timid.)

However, I am piqued by the consensual idea. Any ideas on how two 'workers might go about coordinating their efforts to psychically rendezvous?

12:23 / 20.04.04

What about entering someone's dreams as a theraputic aid? My fiancee suffers from nightmares, and really lacks the psychic resources to protect herself from their effects. If I could enter her dreams, I could help her fight them off.

ONLY NICE THINGS

20:21 / 20.04.04

Seriously, people, is this really the place for a magickal ethics lesson?

I don't see why not. Unless we are aiming to slim down all posts in the Temple to "yes" or "no", and then end the discussion... why should the ethical implications *not* be considered?

21:49 / 20.04.04

I think ethical discussions are fine, and probably quite necessary, but we shouldn't get so carried away with right and wrong so we forget about the actual question.
Fair compromise?

05:03 / 21.04.04

I have no issue discussing ethics in magick. My issue is getting "lessons", in the form of "May I remind you..." and the like. Given the ethical qualifiers the various posters here, myself included, have put on the idea of "dream invasion", I don't think it entirely fair to use a tone that seems as hostile as the "just because you have a penis" comment (to which I would also reply, check out the ongoing "Women who Rape" thread upboard). I'm very interested in discussing this question, and psychic ethics generally, but with my peers, not my Headmaster or my Pastor. Then again, maybe I've just overreacted; if I have, apologies all round.

Nuff Said?

Question then: is every unrequested oneiromantic operation mind rape? What about circumstances parallel to the nightmare-haunted girlfriend where the party in question might benefit but cannot be consulted beforehand i.e. Girlfriend in a Coma? How 'bout general broadcast oneiromancy, like the popular bedtime suggestion (or invocation perhaps) "Sweet Dreams"? What about "spontaneous visits" to friends or loved ones?

07:46 / 21.04.04

If I could invade dreams I wouln't. Dreams are very personal, why not just tell people things, its far simpler