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Sigils Are Boring

 
  

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illmatic
10:11 / 17.03.04
Perhaps this should be subtitled “heresy for Chaos Magicians”?

NB: Please note it is not my intention to have a pop at anyone specific with this thread, I was a bit wary of starting it because I felt it might come over that way. I think there is some excellent writing on sigilisation on this site, but I just find the way it’s talked about sometimes rather unimaginative. I’m just putting out a few ideas for observation. Agree, disagree, critique or comment as you will.

Onward:

Absence of Gravitas,
in this thread
:

And I'd propose that a reason that wanking over sigils and wanking over porn fit very well together is that they are, after all, pretty close to each other as an activity. You can do it 'safely' at home without having to risk getting involved with other people.

I think AoG has point here that’s worth expanding. Sigils often seem to be a first port of call for people getting into magick (well, Chaos Magick anyway). It’s my contention that both the strength and weakness of this method is its ease. On one hand this has been tremendously liberating – the re-discovery of Austin Spare’s work led to a critiquing of the whole way in which magick works, and a rejection of the elaborate hierarchies which were the mainstay of Western magick up until the ‘eighties – it spawned the whole Chaos Magick thing and put out the idea that you could do magick anywhere, easily whether or not you were and 8 degree magus with an Egyptian temple in a shed at the bottom of your garden.

On the other hand though, I think the sigil idea because it’s so easy to get, it’s become a bit of an easy “one size fits all” formula. In the thread linked to above, Beautifultoxin talks about creating hir own pornography. To me, this is a great example of magick in action – it’s a creative act, and as such requires time, effort and commitment. The dislike I have of the sigil method isn’t the method itself, it’s the way in which it’s become almost a cliché and as such, people seem to be dropping their imagination and capacity for effort at the starting gate i.e., it’s always bloody wanking for “entry into gnosis” – why? There’s so many other ways to do it! Is “entry into gnosis” even necessary? Y’know, critique, think about it! And while I’m moaning, there are so many other methods of sorcery to try and experiment with – what about candle magick, talismans, the qabalah…bloody Hawaiian Shamanism!! The list is endless. Is part of the attraction of sigils that they're so easy? You don't have to actually, y'know, do anything like learning or study, don't have to build an altar, prepare, fast or dedicate yourself. Just a post it note, a biro, a copy of last month's Club International, and the job's done. I find this approach about a inspiring as eating beans on toast every night for the rest of my life.

Pete Koenig has written a fine essay on The McDonaldization of Occulture, which is largely a critique of the Caliphate OTO, I think all his points about bite size digestibility could be applied to the sigil jackoff formula. The wanking analogy made above makes a lot of sense – sigils are the equivalent of having a quick one of the wrist, whereas magick to me, is more like a long term relationships with all the ups and downs this entails.

As I said above, it’s not my intention to have a go at people, be overtly negative. From my own experience, I remember being quite baffled when I read a book outside the Chaos canon. I remember being puzzled when I read a ritual which did not contain the set formula of banish – enter gnosis- fire sigil- banish again. But a bit of bafflement is good for us surely (Funnily enough, this book has become pretty much the centre of personal practice)? Discomfort and challenge make us grow. If you’re going to get into this stuff why not put your arse on the line, why not let your creativity out of it’s shackles? Anyway, rant over.

Thoughts?
 
 
Joetheneophyte
10:31 / 17.03.04
You are entierely correct. In work at the moment so I cannot give you the answer you deserve.
Sigils for me are the first rung on the LADDER


For me this might actually be the only rung I take ....I am as yet too much of a coward to dabble in Ceremonial stuff as if I actually somehow managed to evoke to appearance, I would probably shit myself!

Who knows with continued work and success, I might develp the backbone to get further into the field ...I hope so


I know that I am a coward and I have been the most frequent of the recent Sigil questioners on this board

Sorry!


great post and you make a very good point
 
 
illmatic
10:35 / 17.03.04
Joe, don't say sorry! Like I say, I'm trying to encourage people to do something a bit different or puzzle stuff out for themselves, not to stop working and trying things out.
 
 
LykeX
11:10 / 17.03.04
I think you bring up some good points. The most important I think is that we shouldn't be just accept a method because that's the way everyone does it. At least not if you're going to be a Chaos Magician.

The reason people start out with sigils is that they are easy. You need something to convince you that you aren't wasting your time. If you don't really believe it, you are unlikely to become really comitted.
The problem is if you just stick with that. Personally, I'm all over the place. So much in fact that I'm having trouble sticking with something long enough to seriously test it. That would be the other ditch.

The essence of Chaos Magick, as I understand it, is the shifting of belief. If belief really does determine reality, paradigm shifting is the ultimate form of magick. Would you even need to do a ritual? If you believe something hard enough, reality would change without you needing to do anything else.

The point I was trying to get at is that technique isn't important. Wether you are constantly shifting, or stick with sigils your entire life doesn't matter. What's important is that you don't end up believing that any one thing is necessary. Nothing is true, right?
 
 
ghadis
12:19 / 17.03.04
I think we should all do a big collective sigil with the intent to make sigils interesting again.
 
 
trouser the trouserian
12:37 / 17.03.04
That's a great link, Illmatic.

From Koenig's article:

This allows a new myth to be introduced: being a fictional creation becomes an integral part of being real; to be one simulation among other simulations. Magicians feel comfortable with such a concept, for after all it is just another way of changing the world purely through the exercise of a magically-honed will. The trouble is that these magical wills only seem to express themselves by exposure to constant new stimuli (from higher dimensions, for example), or to download a new mind off the Internet. The proto-fascist Self hides itself in a bunker that is merely the global community of discorporated beings on the Internet, whom they never touch or meet. It's the ultimate form of safe sex, safe drugs, safe transcendence and safe feminism.

and

Occulture becomes an audience riven by factions which fishes its half-truths out of the limitless digital pool. This McDonaldised Occulture is an arena where anything goes, a breeding-ground for conspiracy-theories where half-truths are classed as scholarly work - for example in the wholly quantitative use of data exclusive to the Internet in university dissertations and theses. This reduction of facts to hallucinatory speculations leaves no room for the controlling influence of truth, and rsults in an endless fragmented labyrinth of unlimited choices. Any information here will face a continuing elasticity in a process of transformation and interactive reconfiguration. In the vast catacombs of the hypertexts it is all too easy to lose a feeling for the whole; in the nebulous atmosphere left by an absence of such an overview, connections and continuity can disappear. Where there is hypertext, there is no context. Does this hold out the unalluring future prospect for Internet users of having to develop a robust information immunity against the infection of false information on the World Wide Web?

Sadly, I think Koenig's got a point.
 
 
illmatic
13:16 / 17.03.04
This old thread might be of interest: The Limitations of Sigils
 
 
Z. deScathach
14:31 / 17.03.04
Yes, I do think that the linking of sexual release to magick is overdone in chaos magick. Personally, I never much got into that, I've preferred to use meditative gnosis in magick. I can't seem to link to the article that was mentioned, but looking at the exerpts, I would say that I both agree and disagree. Having been involved in some magickal groups in a flesh and blood sense, I find that I prefer online groups, reason being that there seems to be a tendency for individuals to get caught up in a titanic, "good vs.evil" trance, and I've gotten tired of the poop flying. Yes, it can certainly fly in an onlne group, but at least you can pick and choose. In terms of magick becomeing a sterile praqctice, magick achieves depth when it is related to everyday life, instead of being separated off. It remains fresh, instead of getting wearisome. Solitary magick avoids the ego plays, the "Important Wars", and the D and D mentality, that one finds in a lot of local groups. Granted, in a large city, one can find some good magickal groups, but in smaller cities, the pickings are pretty scarce. A good example is Barbelith. I come here because people discuss magick. I don't need to endlessly convince persons that I am a suitably moral person. I don't have to worry about someone with a messiah complex trying to bring me down because they see themselves as participating in the endless war of good and evil. It seems like whenever I get involved in a local group, I get reminded of why I left them. I can see his point in that there can be a certain sterility in the present scene, but honestly, it beats the alternative, IMO.
 
 
illmatic
14:35 / 17.03.04
I'll go back and try and sort out that link, HTML is shit today blame the hangover.
 
 
Skeleton Camera
14:37 / 17.03.04
There's also the consideration of how you're going about your sigils and the gnosis-wanking. Make it deeper than just another wank. Write out prayers or sacred-ized (?) magical workings rather than just "I will...". I've had texts the length of poems that have become sigils - invocations, prayers, the requests or the willings, and the closings - an entire ritual condensed into one symbol. Then there's the firing ritual itself - go all the way with candles, incense, and visualization. Use the sigil as the "bullet" in the broader ritual, in other words. Don't make it throwaway magic.

And, quite honestly, I've been getting much better results this way. You can take the incense ashes and scatter them at a crossroads afterwards, or disperse the sigil itself similarly. Enclose in in a power object, figure, or talisman. Or make copies of the original and distribute it wherever you believe it would have the most impact.

Most of this stuff is obvious but it came as a surprise to me (lack of imagination!) when I first encountered the idea. Where was it?...www.scotttreleaven.com, I think, from one of Boy in a Suitcase's posts.
 
 
trouser the trouserian
14:38 / 17.03.04
And while we're on the subject, servitors also get my vote for being boring. If chaos magic is all so wonderfully creative and revolutionary and all that, how come the two most common things people tend to yak on about are sigils (zzzz) and servitors (yawn).
 
 
LVX23
15:37 / 17.03.04
Aye to that, Seamus.

"Enflame thyself!"
 
 
Olulabelle
20:37 / 17.03.04
how come the two most common things people tend to yak on about are sigils (zzzz) and servitors (yawn).

Ha ha, I love the fact that you can say that here and everyone knows what you mean. If you said 'sigils are boring' anywhere else, people would reply 'si-wha?"

Sigils and servitors are the fast food of Chaos Magick. They fill your hunger up instantaneously, but really there are many more interesting things to do it with if only you spent some time looking.

People just getting into magick like them because they're the easiest things to grasp and also they involve actual physical action. I guess it makes people feel like they have 'done' some magick. If you told the same people that they had to set their alarm clock for the middle of the night, wake up and write down what they were dreaming, just so as to begin to focus their mind for future magickal skills, they wouldn't be so keen to do it - it takes time and effort and it's not so much fun!

And Sigils, of course the wanking thing helps. I bet this sentence is intoned a lot: "I am not obsessed with getting my rocks off, oh no. This is a proper magickal working I am doing and therefore it's perfectly fine to be wanking every five minutes and NO, Mum, you can't come in, I'm doing my HOMEWORK!"
 
 
--
22:16 / 17.03.04
Oddly enough, my first sigil that worked involved no semen at all on my part.
 
 
trouser the trouserian
04:27 / 18.03.04
LOL olulabelle,

NO, Mum, you can't come in, I'm doing my HOMEWORK!"
Sounds like the occult version of "Billy No-Mates"
 
 
macrophage
09:36 / 18.03.04
Aloha - nowadays I prefer the passive state of gnosis. It's good if people try to broaden their horizons. Certain things can stagnate and get stuck in endless loops. Everyone likes to follow some sort of models I guess.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
09:41 / 18.03.04
Nothing is true, right?

I want that on a t-shirt.
 
 
Shanghai Quasar
17:04 / 18.03.04
So, basically, you're saying that we should make a group sigil to produce a servitor that will make people... uh... eat less fast food?

"Yes, I call it... the Anti-Ronald."
 
 
Perfect Tommy
08:51 / 20.03.04
I've gotta rally to the defense of sigils. First off, I think that the general method of losing your desire in the new desire to make an appropriately witchy looking design is a really good method, whether it's for a standard firing method or something far more elaborate. But more importantly, I am a big fan of doing minor actions, in life or in magic, than planning elaborate things that you don't get around to 'cause the time doesn't seem right or you're not properly inspired or you haven't found the right engraved bronze brazier. I mean, I wouldn't make a 20-year life plan on a cocktail napkin but if I don't make little lists I never get anything done--same idea for sigils. We frequently discuss making magic a part of your life, not separate from it; life mostly consists of a zillion little things that would help things run smoothly, and those are perfect for the minor influence of sigilization.

Admittedly, I may just be going off because marker pens and intuitive drawing got me a seat on an overbooked flight today, but dismissal of something which fills its limited role very well seems unnecessarily... I dunno, 'elitist' is going to far... maybe it makes me think of the flavor of computer geek who is annoyed that normal people are able to use GUIs, 'cause REAL geeks should be using a command line.
 
 
Perfect Tommy
08:58 / 20.03.04
It did just occur to me that I did not exactly 'enter into gnosis' for the good results today; it was more of a very light trance, finishing when the drawing just seemed done. Discussion of those questions, and how to have more creativity, is totally worthwhile... I just gotta stand up for the importance of Fast Food Magic.
 
 
illmatic
09:40 / 22.03.04
PT - couldn't agree more. I think being able to work quickly and "on the fly" is a great skill. I know what your mean about being a bit elitist and dismissive as well - I take your point, I just wanted to write something perhaps a bit controversial. Glad someone disagreed with me to be honest. I think sometimes the whole minimum effort thing = mimimum engagement. I quite like Ramsey Dukes essay about the OTTO - the "over the top order", which is bacically, why use a old coffe cup as brazier when you can use an 800 year old skull looted from a Tibetan temple? McDonalds can certainly fill a hole, but no one you don't want to eat it all the time, do they?

On the whole "gnosis" thing, I wonder if it's necessary if we define "gnosis" as one pointedness/empty mind. There are lots of traditons which use prayer for instance, and don't have that intense one off point of focus.
 
 
reFLUX
19:26 / 22.03.04
well today i stuck some uncharged sigils (well one of them is) around the city of Leeds. if you live anywhere near there try and see if you can find any and stare at them intently
 
 
LVX23
23:40 / 22.03.04
if you live anywhere near there try and see if you can find any and stare at them intently

And if you get caught publicly "charging" a Leeds sigil, make sure you have a creative excuse like this guy.
 
 
Shanghai Quasar
00:25 / 23.03.04
In defence of the sigil, referring to the process as the "fast food" or "McDonalds" of magic is a bit harsh, innit? They're not all prepackaged and cooked up for you in advance, you just get vague instructions on how to make them. It's more like macaroni and cheese - it can be made any number of ways, as much effort or as little effort may be put into it as you see fit. Follow the instructions on the box or go your own way.

In attacking of the sigil, it's still just bloody macaroni, no matter what special ingredients you add to it after or how you boil the water. A magician should not live on pasta alone.

In defence of the non-sigil methology, if magic is like music, branching out is like learning new chords and composing new concertos. Variety is what makes life worth living and this mode of thinking extends to all things.

In attacking of non-sigil methodology, it's the same jazz played by pompous cats. Metallica may only be able to play one song, but it's a bloody awesome song.

In conclusion of the sigil, the end is the beginning... is the end is the beginning.
 
 
Haus, Heart, Home, Hearth
01:14 / 23.03.04
Hi, I know little about magical practices. But it seems to me, if you're making an Anti-Ronald servitor (whatever that is, some kind of psychic servant spirit?) you should call him Arnold? This is an anagram of Ronald, so what you're doing is using the essence of the clown (his name, which I've heard is powerful in magic) and making it something of your own (or in this case, mine)

I'd describe this servitor still as a clown but either Mime like (because no one likes mimes and this would spread to the appeal of fast food) or as one of those horribly depressing hobo-clowns for similar reasons.

Am I fairly right about magic working like this?
 
 
LykeX
05:00 / 23.03.04
Macro, if it works, it works. If it doesn't, it doesn't.
If you really want to know, you have to try.
 
 
Perfect Tommy
05:31 / 23.03.04
Think there might be some utility in delineating what areas are best done fast and cheap and what calls for more of a candlelit dinner? (The food metaphor is working for me, if you consider a sigil to be the foolproof dinner that you make when in a hurry, rather than associating it with some sort of heart attack on a plate.)
 
 
illmatic
09:44 / 24.03.04
Before this one slips away completely, I wanted to say your post made me laugh, Shanghai Quasar.

The food metaphor works for me as well. Anyone want to bite on the whys and wherefore's of sigilisation vs. otther, more involving methods?
 
 
Olulabelle
11:26 / 24.03.04
Yes, it's truly funny Shanghai Quasar.

I just think it's easy access, always on 'instant' magick (oh no sorry, that's internet connection metaphors) which appeals to people who are learning about magick, and the fact that they're fairly easy to do is what maybe turns the more experienced people off a bit.

To go with the food thing (which I am glad is floating everyone's boat by the way) more complex magickal methodology is a bit like Cordon Bleu cookery and you wouldn't go straight in making Choux pastry if your only experience was beans on toast. But that's not to say that beans on toast doesn't do the trick every now and again...
 
 
Samael
19:47 / 24.03.04
Well, making anti-fast food servitors aside, sigils can be looked at as a foundation for building one's methods. Just use that imagination to expand what a sigil is in your workings. Think of it as a spell. Then think about how using it in creation of other spells can work. Use a sigil in concordance with some evocation, invocation, whatever. Use several to achieve an end result. Or you could simply not use them at all for a while. As for wanking, it is only one way after all. It might all seem to be the quick and easy thing to just create sigils and charge them up with a good wank to get results. Remember though, couldn't one consider using magick in general to bring about one's will a fast and easy (ok, it's not easy all the time) method too?
 
 
Phex: Dorset Doom
21:33 / 24.03.04
Yeah, the wanking thing is just one approach after all, and all the beginner texts like Pop Magick! and Condensed Chaos always suggest alterantives like meditation, fasting, sleep deprivation. People get hung up on the wanking thing just because it's the last thing anybody would associate with Magick, which if you've never heard of it before is all about robes and altars and goat's blood. It's also got that iconoclastic edge that attracts people to chaos magick: all the beginner stuff says you can get the same results jerkin' the gherkin as 'those stuffy old Golden-Dawn types' can with their elaborate rituals.
There'll always be people just dipping their toes into a subculture, just as there'll always be people willing and able to branch out for themselves and try something new or more advanced. Don't get hung up on it, it doesn't affect you, your Magick or Magick in general.
 
 
Shanghai Quasar
03:40 / 25.03.04
I think I was just messing about on the whole "anti-Ronald" count.

Moving back to sigils and the defence thereof, the level of involvement depends on the individual moreso than the practice itself.

There are people (in these very fora) that put a great deal of thought into their sigil design, how they're going to get them to work, what the ideal outcome will be. Continuing the food thread, they should be considered the Grade-A chefs of simple cuisine, the masters who add dill and oregano to their grilled mozzarella-and-Monterey Jack cheese on whole wheat.

There are people who do more complicated rituals but invest about as much thought into them as the beans-on-toast crowd. These are the line order chefs of advanced cuisine, the ones who can make you escargots a la Bourguignonne... but their food just so boring and slimy, who would want to eat them?

"Bite" on the whys and wherefores. Suddenly cracking up has ruined my train of thought and I'm mysteriously hungry, but I'll see about finishing.

Basically, what I'm trying to say, is that you've touched on the important point of any practice - the level of involvement. Any wanker can buy a ceremonial dagger and point out the four directions while incanting in Latin, that's not important or special. The appearance of involvement and complexity in any ritual does not lessen practices which are not-quite-so impressive to observe.

Sigils can be boring, but they don't have to be.
 
 
Mug Chum
00:05 / 01.04.04
Heil Illmatic.

Well, the main thing I apreciate about magick is the hability of shifting oneself and really, REALLY working out imagination, criativity and adding more weird interactions with the world. But still... i'm a disgusting little newbie.

But when it comes to terms of enchantments and trying to change things more "concrete", I would prefer to do the safe stuff like sigils (but adding more interaction and imagination). I mean, I do have a certain paranoia about evil spirits, and bad-ass voudun loas (like Morrison's experience with Zaranguin) etc. Despite the fact that I don't "believe" much in this stuff, there are things that do get changed, self or not-self.

I mean, maybe they're boring. But isn't the other way too risky? I mean... I had to stop some magickal work after I almost beat up all of my friends and doesn't have any memories of it (I was dealing with some "not-boring" things at the time).

I want people's opnion on this. I see a lot of people saying that they've put themselves in risky magickal situations but I doubt 90% are true. I mean, I still don't understand how Grant Morrison kept on dealing with this kind of stuff after that "elephant man with skin cancer" experience and Zaranguin...

I just wouldn't like to be in a god's debt. Specially those forms...

But hey... it's dangerous. It's glamourous.
Of course, the best stuff come with risk. But some just go after the glamour of danger. That can bite you in the ass good...

I'm only a rookie. I don't know shit yet. Maybe the reason why I'm paranoid.

See ya!
 
 
Wanderer
01:54 / 01.04.04
another benefit to basic sigils is that they can give you a sense of motivation or accomplishment while other, more time-consuming training (meditation, for instance) is being undertaken. I think the problem is that many get hung up on them rather than trying to expand, and that line may just be what separates the dabblers from the serious magickians. The other thing I think is important is the point that, being simple, sigils have enormous experimentation potential, whether posting them around town on posters to putting them in a painting or something to poems and stories that represent intent. I was reading some essays on phil hine's site the other day and he talked about using flow charts and media to produce sigils. I've read about viral sigils, narrative sigils, and sigils which use posters, music or mind-maps. The important thing is to realize their limitations and move beyond them into other fields of magick while at the same time recognizing that their simplicity allows for a relatively time-efficient way to field-test new theories or paradigms, as well as reinforcing other practices. of course, Im kind of new at this, so I might not know what the hell Im talking about. Oh well.
 
 
macrophage
06:31 / 01.04.04
I've been working alot with sigils that come to me when I'm in deep meditation. Experimenting with them - interesting results. I've made sigils in my dreams but somehow I've not been able to hold onto them when I awake.
I read on the net about using mind maps/spider webs for co-joining different sigils - interesting. I think we all get used to our own unique methods of working, gnosis and firing them off. I was hoping to begin work on my own Alphabet of Desire but the sigils I get given seem to produce a whole host of results.
 
  

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