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Are all god-forms equivalent to archetypes?

 
 
Zheng He
06:56 / 16.03.04
Well, first new topic for me, so don't jump on me too hard, will you?

Reading P. Carroll I came to something like "God-forms may usefully be thought of as archetypal manifestations of basic human drives present in all individuals" or something like that. Then I thought on some threads I read some days ago when someone was adviced to use a well-established god-form instead of developing one of his own, because the new god-form will lack the "force" of the well-known one. If all god-forms can be thought(...), then the only requesite for a god-form to be invoked by an individual is its identification with the archetype ONLY for the individual doing the invocation. Am I wrong? I mean, if I'm a great X-Men fan I can think of invoking Xavier just as Norse folk thought of invoking Odin in his role of All-father...(maybe the comparison is not very accurate, but it's used just to illustrate the point).

Is this plain stupid? I think it might be a point...
 
 
agvvv
07:17 / 16.03.04
If you ask me, it is a very strong point indeed. Using characters from literature, comics, movies etc. can work very well, it does for me anyway.. especially characters who has a archetype-ish personality, so to speak. Although it is "common belief" that godforms such as Odin, Hermes etc. will work better because they are more established as an idea in the collective mind, thus representing a greater "force". I do not necessarily find that to be true though, as long as you belive that Xavier will do the trick, he will
 
 
Z. deScathach
09:58 / 16.03.04
One thing that I think needs to be looked at in the equation is that contemporary characters ARE very much involved in the collective mind, particularly if they are current and popular. There are many X-Men fans, and they are mythologically participating in the characters. So even if one believes that there is a "circuit phenomenon", contemporary characters certainly participate in that. In some sense,invoking a popular character may have more resonance and coherance than an ancient one.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
10:51 / 16.03.04
From my own personal experience, there is a clear and unmistakable qualitative difference between working with recently birthed pop culture thoughtforms and working with Gods whose personalities have been formed following thousands of years of worship. Just as there is a qualitative difference between working with dormant entities who haven't been worshipped since ancient times, and Gods from living traditions that are still very much active and vibrant within the world. The difference seems to be one of self awareness and autonomy as a personality. I think these entities operate a bit like artificial intelligences, and the longer they have been around, the more familiar they become with the intricacies of working alongside humans.

Superman might have all the archetypal trappings of a solar entity, but doesn't have a thousand years of experience under his belt of operating in this way. Why, for instance, do you think Gods like worship and sacrifice if these things don't in some sense feed their essential nature? A relationship with an entity is a two-way process, they learn things from us in a similar way to how we learn things from them. If you're not getting experiences that strongly suggest a seperate personality with its own agenda, then yeah, you probably can reduce your entity work to 'tapping into archetypal forces existing in the mind' - but that's not necessarily a very good thing.

I don't think the 'Jungian archetype' model of entity work is really very useful. As was commented on in a conversation I was having with some barbelith folks at the weekend, Jung's work is 70 years old and hasn't been used seriously as a basis for psychotherapy in some time, yet magicians still reel out Jungian theories like a nervous tick to give some vague validation to their practices. I tend to think that the position of "it's all *really* in my mind, but I just pretend that it's objectively real for this experiment" is a bit weak. What is it really doing? Providing a flimsy pop psychology justification for some pretty mad things? Giving you a kind comfort zone/safety net that keeps you out of the dangerous psychological territories you might find yourself in if you start behaving as if this stuff were real in a literal sense? Isn't that all a little cosy and restrictive for a paradigm like chaos magic that tends to pride itself on being 'hardcore' and 'cutting edge'?

In actual practice, I think it's pretty common for people to go into magic with this sense that the God/desses aren't 'real', just a means of communicating with the deeper parts of your own consciousness. It's an easier pill to swallow on a first date. But as the relationships you strike up start to develop, this operating belief tends to subtley transform as you start to get experiences that directly challenge it. I'd say that that's a sure sign that you're on the right track with entity work. "If you talk to God, you're religious. If God talks back to you, you're crazy, or a very successful shaman".
 
 
trouser the trouserian
12:43 / 16.03.04
Good post there Gypsy!

Personally, I don't find concepts such as it is "common belief" that godforms such as Odin, Hermes etc. will work better because they are more established as an idea in the collective mind, thus representing a greater "force" particularly useful, or that of a "circuit phenomenon" particularly useful. For me, the key difference between historical and 'pop' gods is greater 'depth'. Gods & Goddesses are so much more than simply representations of 'archetypes'.

Have a look at this thread for more info.
 
 
trouser the trouserian
13:10 / 16.03.04
But, discussive stuff aside, how are you going to 'invoke' Prof. Xavier? Shave your head? Spend a week in a wheelchair so you can get an insight into what it's like to be disabled? Not being a big fan of the X-men (I've only seen the films), I'd ask, what can Xavier grant you? - what are you going to ask him to give you, and what might he expect from you in return?
 
 
---
14:05 / 16.03.04
The way i see it, it's all Maya/attachement/illusion/karma/false belief/dreaming and nothing is real anyway, so i do actually side with the Archetype theory.

I actually think that all of the Gods and Goddesses are more akin to fiction than reality and that we here on earth are just the same. We've just been tricked into believing 'real', and that's why we panick and mess everything up so much, because we worry about pain and consequences, when in fact the pain and consequences don't actually exist, we've just made ourselves believe that they do.

To me it's all fictionsuits. Even Hermes, Odin, Shiva, Kali, the whole lot, but this is in no way negative to me, it's more freeing and i still have total respect for these entities.

Try it with a 'literature' God/dess/Archetype, and also with a 'real' one and see what works best. Then you can always go back to the other one later and try and work out why it didn't work as well.
 
 
---
14:08 / 16.03.04
Not being a big fan of the X-men (I've only seen the films), I'd ask, what can Xavier grant you? - what are you going to ask him to give you, and what might he expect from you in return?

His/her guardian angel/Tiphareth energy could use the Xavier suit to manifest in and give guidance. It might not work very well at first, but i think it will with experience.
 
 
Z. deScathach
14:11 / 16.03.04
Gypsy Lantern: Superman might have all the archetypal trappings of a solar entity, but doesn't have a thousand years of experience under his belt of operating in this way. Why, for instance, do you think Gods like worship and sacrifice if these things don't in some sense feed their essential nature?

I'm not so sure about that. When you look at it, many of these gods and goddesses have been virtually dormant for the last 1500 years in terms of worship. It is only recently that they have been worshipped in large numbers. Also, what people are worshipping nowadays has changed a great deal from what they worshiped 2000 years ago. Sacrifice is a good example. Many ancient religions demanded human sacrifice, and yet I've heard of no one worshipping these god/desses that believes that said sacrifice is necessary, or even desirable. People envision their gods as they desire and expect them to be. The simple fact that god/desses have changed over time, (even when they were heavily worshipped), speaks to me of a lack of essential nature, unless of course one is looking at their mythological context. Even in terms of that, many persons nowadays are worshipping god/desses not based upon their actual mythology, but based upon correspondance. Mythological participation has changed greatly in recent years as well. With the current state of media, people may participate in a mythologically based drama in huge numbers simultaneously. That is a considerably different situation than existed in ancient times.
 
 
agvvv
14:38 / 16.03.04
Gypsy Lantern; I choose not to see it that way. It doesnt matter to me if the entity I work with have been dormant for 3000 years or just invented by a schizo named bob. It works for me anyway. Now, I dont know in which way these godforms actually exists, and I dont care as long as I can work with them in a mutual manner. Hell, we dont even know in which way we exist. But again, as absence of gravitas pointed out, Gods & Goddesses have more depth when it comes to culture and history, thus much richer to work with.
 
 
trouser the trouserian
14:48 / 16.03.04
Zen Emetic
If gods & goddesses are more akin to fiction than reality - then what's the point doing attempting to invoke them? Please explain how the concept of 'fictionsuits' relates to magical invocatory practice.
 
 
trouser the trouserian
15:11 / 16.03.04
Z.deScathach
Some good points here. I was trying to reflect on the way the perception of gods/goddesses changes in this thread.

With the current state of media, people may participate in a mythologically based drama in huge numbers simultaneously.
True, but is this the quite same as say, becoming possessed by Othinn in a group ritual? Surely there's a difference between watching a telly programme on the Greek Dionysia and actually participating in it?
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
15:39 / 16.03.04
I'm not so sure about that. When you look at it, many of these gods and goddesses have been virtually dormant for the last 1500 years in terms of worship. It is only recently that they have been worshipped in large numbers.

Not all of them. As I said, there is a difference between working with an intelligence that hasn't been fed since the end of, say, the Sumerian civilisation, and an entity that has been in constantly fed for thousands of years and still gets weekly attention. A big scary difference, in fact.

Also, what people are worshipping nowadays has changed a great deal from what they worshiped 2000 years ago. Sacrifice is a good example. Many ancient religions demanded human sacrifice, and yet I've heard of no one worshipping these god/desses that believes that said sacrifice is necessary, or even desirable.

That might say more about the occult circles you move in than anything else. Blood sacrifice is pretty essential to working with certain Gods, sometimes the mange sec doesn't quite cut it depending on the personality you are dealing with and what they are used to. It can be a delicate area, and often compromises have to be carefully negotiated. The personalities of Gods seem to be shaped at a cultural level, and decisions over what is and is not acceptable as sacrifice are not in the hands of the pracitioner. If it were as simple as that, do you not think our distant ancestors would have figured it out before throwing their daughters on the pyre?

The simple fact that god/desses have changed over time, (even when they were heavily worshipped), speaks to me of a lack of essential nature

It strongly speaks to me of an essential nature that is capable of growth and development through living interaction with human culture. The Gods don't stay the same anymore than we stay the same, apart from during periods when no one is feeding them and to all intents and purposes they go offline and become dormant. In Haiti you get versions of Ogoun who is represented as a military general riding a tank, a far cry from the original Yoruban God of war, and not too similar to St George either - but all are still discernable as Ogoun's essential essence manaifesting in terms of the time and place he is worshipped and the needs of the worshippers en masse.

Many cultures have no problems whatsoever with the idea of different local 'aspects' or 'versions' of entities existing simultaenously. It's a pretty common phenomena in living magico-religious cultures, and probably only seems a bit odd to us as western magicians because, by and large, we're used to working with the Gods of ancient cultures that have been offline to one degree or another for hundred of years. These personalities tend to be thought of in quite monolithic terms, but I'd hazard a guess that in ancient Scandinavia this local version phenomena was quite common from village to village. The Odin - Villi - Ve complex seems to hint at something similar, as do the differences between Odin, Woden and Wotan. Chances are, if the 'Northern Tradition' had been constantly online to the present day, Odin might not still be represented by his followers as a medieval Viking - at least not exclusively - but that's not to say Odin lacks an "essential nature". Far from it.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
15:58 / 16.03.04
Gypsy Lantern; I choose not to see it that way. It doesnt matter to me if the entity I work with have been dormant for 3000 years or just invented by a schizo named bob.

That's your prerogative, and I don't deny you your right to hold that opinion. I just personally think you're very wrong.

It works for me anyway.

Never said it wouldn't. Only that I've come to observe a very clear qualitative difference, and that it seems to relate to how long an entity has been aware of itself as such, and how familiar it is with the various functions it may be called on to fulfill by holding the position of 'God/dess'.

Now, I dont know in which way these godforms actually exists, and I dont care as long as I can work with them in a mutual manner.

And neither do I. But I'm interested in using this thread to talk about some of the theories and models I've come to formulate having worked closely with entities for a number of years, and also in challenging some of the platitudes that are constantly repeated by occultists but rarely unpacked and examined, such as the Jungian archetypes thing. I think it's a simplistic theory that doesn't correlate with my own experiences of working with entities.

Disclaimer: I should apologise for being overly confrontational in this thread, more so than usual. Been doing Quark tables for 2 days solid, which is horrible, horrible...
 
 
grant
16:04 / 16.03.04
Off topic a bit here, but Zheng He, your username ROCKS.

He's sort of one of my heroes. I was asking about him in China, and no one knew what I was talking about until someone corrected my pronunciation. "Chung! Hhuh?" is how they say it.
---

Personally, I have no problem with seeing a godform as an archetype, but I'm into psychological models for magick and stuff.

More precisely, I'd see a godform as an expression of an archetype -- sort of a personality an archetype might wear absent of any physical qualities.
 
 
agvvv
16:08 / 16.03.04
Didnt mean to come of as confrontational, just sorted out my view on the subject with your post as a reference. It seems like we have different experiences on the subject, thus drawing different conclusions. And thats fine and dandy. By the way, if you`ve actually been doing Quark tables for two days straight, it is your right to be confrontational.
 
 
---
16:32 / 16.03.04
Zen Emetic
If gods & goddesses are more akin to fiction than reality - then what's the point doing attempting to invoke them? Please explain how the concept of 'fictionsuits' relates to magical invocatory practice.


Everythings a fictionsuit of one, universal energy.
 
 
---
16:44 / 16.03.04
I'm also sorry if i seem to be trying to provoke anything with this comment, but i'd rather summon King Mob or Batman than something that's needed blood sacrifice of innocents to be brought into our plane. I just don't see the point at all and think that it's a pretty horrific and sinister thing to have to do.

If i had to offer someone's blood against their will in order to get advice for something i'd rather forget about it, and don't understand at all how or why anyone did this in the past.
 
 
panthergod
17:13 / 16.03.04
Is a fiction-suit the frame work through which a universal Archetype appears to his/her/it's/worshipper?

If so this seems to jibe with the chaos magick tendency to align archetypes with Kabbala. that all Archetypes/Gods are cultural interpretations of the aspects of the One Higher entity.

Or maybe i'm just rambling. *shrugs*

Edit: wasn't Jung's entire psycho-analysis based on Kabbala, to which he was an avid believer/practicioner? I've read that before in a book by JH Brenner(Magick for Beginners, IIRC)
 
 
Zheng He
17:30 / 16.03.04
Well, a lot of feedback for a first post. Being a little overwhelmed I'll try to elaborate a little.

I’m a newbie to magic in its practical form. I’ve being studying alternatively kabballah, gnosis, zen and taosim for some years now, and decided it’s time to get hands on the knowing. I’m more or less concordant with Zen Memetic in its comments on fictionsuits. I always thinked of a gods/ess as an encarnation (an instance for the information-oriented) of an archetype, a face of the truth, a persona. From the newbie point of view this is obviously easier than thinking of a more substantive existence for them, so Gypsy your point about the safety net could be true.

I think I’m not in the position (for lack of experience and wisdom) of knowing where or how are this entities. Maybe some of you are, and that was the main reason of the post. In my limited experience (mostly sigils and some sephiroth invocation) I came to think in this manner, but I can see clearly that most of my more philosophic readings drove me along that way, and not the facts.

In respect to the Jungian thing, I’ve never seen it come to fact. As Gypsy pointed out it’s clearly out of the way in therapy and it’s of little use in most of the fields, leaving alone text theory. I don’t really think that it is THE way things are, but aligning with the kabballah interpretation I come to think of each entity as a part of a greater whole, and as such, a mask that reinforces some aspects and occludes others. This explains questions as the slightly different aspects of some entities and the evolution of them. But I really think that they can be self-existant. A persona does not have to vanish away after the invocation. He/she/it can go to wherever it was in the first place. In the same manner as a cell does not vanish when you shift the attention of the microscope to another cell… yet they are parts of a whole. Maybe the invocation is like the lens that we (in my case hopefully) use to focus on a self-existant part of the whole (I don’t know if this metaphor is any useful)

Well, at least I cleared my thoughts a little with this post. Any comments?
 
 
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17:44 / 16.03.04
Is a fiction-suit the frame work through which a universal Archetype appears to his/her/it's/worshipper?

If so this seems to jibe with the chaos magick tendency to align archetypes with Kabbala. that all Archetypes/Gods are cultural interpretations of the aspects of the One Higher entity.


I mean fictionsuit in the same way as Zheng means persona, and there will be many other names aswell. As for jibing with Chaos magic/archetypes/Kabbalah i think that it reinforces it myself.

"Cultural interpretations of the aspects of the one higher entity."

I see a cultural interpretation of a higher entity the same as an archetype anyway, but thats just my own view here, and i don't for one second expect some other people here to do anything other than wince at my comments, but that's why i like it here, there's so much difference in our views.
 
 
Anuel
00:18 / 17.03.04
The gods themselves are anthropic models of systemic mathematical algorithms by which the forces of in the universe function. The One God is liken to a universal equation that satisfies or holds the solutions to all algorithms (i.e., all gods are merely manifestation of the one God). Archetypes are simplifications of geometrical neural structures cooresponding to primordial collective human experience.
 
 
trouser the trouserian
07:35 / 17.03.04
Anyone care to share their experiences of magically invoking a pop culture character? i.e. how you went about it, what it felt like, what results (if any) were obtained?
 
 
illmatic
08:09 / 17.03.04
Seconded. I would rather here someone'saccount of their experience rather than a load of wanky theorising any day of the week. I feel a thread coming on....
 
 
Z. deScathach
14:02 / 17.03.04
Absence of Gravitas: Anyone care to share their experiences of magically invoking a pop culture character? i.e. how you went about it, what it felt like, what results (if any) were obtained?

Sure thing. I once invoked Xena, Warrior Princess, to aid in my fighting ability. I invoked her:
A. Because like myself, she is female.
B. I love to learn how to fight
C. I've never been afraid of sharp things.

What I hoped to get out of it was getting back into my training, in a more extreme way. I invoked by going into trance, meeting her, and unifying with her energies. Several interesting things happened. One thing that occured is that I seemed to be able to train through my pain. That is still with me, a good thing, since I have a lot of it. It seemed like there was a force within me that wouldn't let me slack off. Sometimes her voice would appear in my head giving me instructions, particularly if I was using anything bladed. I wound up extensively exploring the warrior archetype as it relates to magick. I also worked with the amazon archetype presented in the series. The weirdest thing that happened was what occured in my relationship. We had both been into watching the series, and we wound up falling into those archetypes. My partner got deeply into Christianity in a mystical sense, and I explored pagan warriorship. Was all of this due to the invocation? Hell if I know. It's just what happened. I do believe that it has made my bladework more practical. A while ago, a friend said to me, "Your like that lady in 'The Matrix'." A strange comment because she was unaware that at that time "Reloaded" had come out, and I was exploring that mythology. Personally, I don't see these entities as existing only inside oneself, and it's my personal belief that they are probably short lived. None the less, my experience is that they can be quite potent when they are popular.
 
 
trouser the trouserian
14:07 / 17.03.04
Z.deScathach
thanks a lot - that's a good, pragmatic example of invocation in action.
 
 
illmatic
14:30 / 17.03.04
Indeed. Great story. Did you do any build up to the inovocation? Any ritual or litany or anything like that? Or just straight into trance?

Oh and off topic, what kind of training do you do? I like learning how to fight as well I'd been planning on doing some NLP to see if it can improve my abilities here. From what I understand of it, it's prety much the same, finding an internal resource that grants you those abilities and identifying with it.
 
 
Z. deScathach
16:21 / 17.03.04
Just straight into trance, although I do believe that watching the series served as a build-up of sorts. I've never been one to do too much planning in terms of ritual, (well that's not exactly true, when I was in Wicca I used to). Actually, I'm thinking about getting back into more involved ritual.

As far as my fighting, at present I've been combining Cheng Hsin and Jeet Kune Do. I like Jeet Kune Do because it is very practical, Cheng Hsin because it totally focuses on internal energy, although I must admit that I have never trained under Peter Ralston. He has some damn good theories though. Feel free to PM me on it. I did apply the tired old maxim, "Nothing is True, Everything is Permitted" to my fighting though. Ralston IMO was too into, "this, not this". I've tried to focus on what I want to accomplish rather than what to avoid. Like I said, PM me, that way we can avoid threadrot.
 
  
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