BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


Your "dark side"

 
  

Page: (1)2

 
 
--
16:07 / 15.03.04
Over this last year or so I have been engaged in an extremely long battle with my so-called "dark side". The intention, in the beginning, was that by dredging it up from my subconscious/unconscious I would be able to deal with it, purge myself of it, and move on. But now I can only wonder, is is possible to purge one's dark side completely from one's self? Or should one just accept their flaws and leave it at that? This is a question I've been struggling with for some time now.

I basically did a thread somewhat like this some time ago about my own personal "Chapel Perilous" and the qliphoth. Inspired by "THe Filth" comic and various books on the Qaballah I had read at the time I decided that it would be in my best interests to explore this dark side of myself (much like how "The Invisibles" had brought out the best in me). I looked back over my life and realized that in many ways I've always had a fascination with these creepy, slimy, weird things... I mean, when I was a kid I loved bugs and stuff (nothing too weird there) but I also liked to construct graveyards from building blocks and sometimes I'd chew toast into the shape of a gun and pretend to shoot people. In grade school I had an interest in things like vampires, werewolves, the devil and what not: In middle school, my obsession was psychotic illness. In high school it was the Nazis and terrorists and sexual deviancy. And in college it was serial killers, and now, postcollege, pornography and the qliphoth. So, all throughout my life, despite all my good points, there's also been this negative side co-existing inside myself.

My experience with the reverse of the tree of life consisted, basically, of dealing with some of these negative strains of thought. I realized, with some shame, that there was a very hateful, misogynistic undertone to my thinking that magical work helped bring to the center of my attention. This shame resulted because most of my friends are female (either on-line or in real life), there are many women I admire, etc. In high school and college I was a real hardcore feminist but now I can see I only assumed that pose because I was secretly ashamed of these misogynistic thoughts (most of which resulted from being bullied by a particularily vicious group of girls in middle school, no doubt). So I decided that the best way to deal with it was to wallow in it. I watched demeaning pornography, read the misogynistic rants of people like Sotos and De Sade, wrote the most violent pornography I could come up with (turns out I'm quite good at writing things like that).

I thought that by doing this I'd purge it from my system so I could no longer worry about it. But recently I was reading "American Psycho" and found myself being really sexually excited by the violent scenes in that book. So much for being purged. It's a little disquieting to me... Why do I get turned on by stories full of blood and guts and rape and shit like that? Shouldn't I be able to move past that, or rise above it? And the thing is, when I see actual crime photos of people who have been butchered by serial killers, it usually grosses me out (when I see the sterile, unsexual reality of it all, I mean, when its stripped of words and just becomes image). And most pornography, when I actually see it, usually grosses me out rather then turns me on. It seems like I find the idea of it sexy, but when I see it as it actuall is, it loses it's appeal.

The point is I can't help but worry at times that beneath my timid, hypochondriac surface personality there lurks a monster or something (of course I realize that there's a big difference between thinking or writing about these things as opposed to the people who actually do it in real life). I'm not a violent person at all, in facn my whole life I've only gotten into one fight, with my brother, many many years ago, when I was barely a teenager... He slapped me after
I beat him at a game so I flipped out and began kicking him and punching him with as much rage as I could muster... That was the only time in my life I've ever felt such rage and hate. But at the same time as I was doing it I felt sickened with my self and when I saw him crying this awful wave of disgust washed over my body.... Since then I've never gotten into a fight with anyone. In fact I still agonize over that moment, even though it happened about 11 years ago or so. Just one of many past memories I agonize over.

Anyway, there's more I have to say about this topic but this is all I'll post for now. However, I'm still wondering what the best way to deal with this is. On one hand I could try to channel all this darkness into my artwork, like someone like Dennis Cooper does (then again, I'm not just interested in writing about stuff like that as my interests are very varied...). Or I could just accept that I have flaws and try to not let them obsess me so (good luck). Or I could try to cleanse myself of such thoughts like that guy who wrote "Qabalistic Concepts" suggested. Sometimes I really do wonder if these thoughts are like some kind of psychic sewage, building up in my system... I can't help but notice that ever since I began these explorations my health has gotten very bad and I frequently suffer from either constipation or the extreme opposite of it (yeah yeah, too much information, I know). Maybe I'm just nuts. I think it's good to explore your "dark side" so it can't control you, but what happens when you can't seem to get out of it?
 
 
cusm
17:00 / 15.03.04
Well, my experience with this sort of thing was a pointed working to communicate with my "inner demon", as it were, figure out what it was it really wanted, and come to an arrangement where that could be satisfied, but in a constructive way. The short version: "so, you want to fuck, do drugs, and have fun? Great. Sounds like a blast. But we do it MY WAY. You listen to me and keep the fuck in line, and I'll treat you to more than you'd ever get yourself. Its your place to want. Its MY place to figure out how to do it RIGHT." It was a "we are more powerful together than apart" sort of agreement. Very goetic, in a way. And I must say, we remain pleased with the results

So taking that approach, if American Psycho makes you hot, maybe what you really want is some good kink. Channel it. Find a more constructive way to express it. Own it, and it is no longer a problem for you. See, I think its better to find a way to let this sort of shit out in a way that you can REALY get off on, than letting it fester suppressed within you until that dark side finds a way to get one up on you and you do something really stupid because of it.
 
 
Joetheneophyte
18:13 / 15.03.04
Good advice

So you are turned on by domination and fake mutilation. Not everybodies idea of 'nice' but just look how well American Psycho sold as a novel.....they made a film out of it for Gud's sake.....so you are not alone in finding this interesting.

It is one thing to be turned on by something....it is another to act it out. I suspect that you are not going to get a chainsaw and run down a hotel corridor chasing a hooker so i wouldn't worry.

If this stuff REALLY concerns you, then I suggest a therapist. If it really gets you down or is causing psychosomatic problems like the diarrhoea you mentioned, then obviously you either need to get to grips with this or seek therapy

By get to grips I mean ACCEPT your dark side for what it is and get past the guilt (WE ALL HAVE A DARK SIDE.......have you ever noticed how often Born Again Christians are intolerant bastards.....they have done something bad in their lives and now want to force their beliefs down everybody elses throat to pay 'penance')


If you cannot get past the guilt, see a counsellor or therapist and talk it through. Y'see that point about you only ever getting in a rage once did sound a little worrying. To my admittedly untrained eye (AND I DO NOT KNOW YOU SO PLEASE FORGIVE THIS MINDREADING ON MY PART)

You seem to be too hard on yourself.


You put yourself down throughout your post and whilst you might have hit your brother WHO HASN'T HAD A FIGHT WITH THEIR FAMILY MEMBERS AT ONE TIME OR ANOTHER?

If you had put him in hospital ....fair enough, you should feel guilt but he might have deserved it at the time.

We all have a dark side and like other aspects of the personality it is NOT a static thing. You may come to terms with your current vices and then just as you are getting complacent.....another 'dark' aspect of your personality will come to the fore and surprise and shock you


You need to explore not only your dark side but WHO says it is a negative trait. Are you judging your thoughts and emotions from your own perspective or are you adopting the 'norms' of your family.......culture......society or peer group. Are you actually acting outside of YOUR OWN beliefs or trying to adhere to an ideal that is not of your own making. I have ahrd time with this myself so I know what you are going through

My father is very guilt driven. I have inherited this from him and I struggle daily with acting from my own drives and beliefs and fitting into some IDEAL aspect that my father might want me to adopt. Christpoher Hyatt's Tantra Without Tears is a short book that touches upon these issues and how we are shaped by family, peers and society as a whole. Obviously, I am not saying that you should become a serial killer or watch kiddie porn

But as long as your actions hurt no other.......are with consenting adults and do not impose your beliefs on anybody else....whose fucking business is it that you get turned on by masochistic/sadistic porn

Hollywood runs on this stuff. Shit look how many people went to see Basic Instinct .....and to quote Bill Hicks it was a "piece of shit film"


Either see a therapist if you cannot stand the guilt of liking fiction that fits your preferences or get on and enjoy it


I would also suggest that you take some assertiveness training as you seem to like to play the shrinking violet. All well and good but if you cannot channel your rage or emotions fully, then you might just one day do something worse than smash your brothers face in.

Good luck and I hope I haven't caused offence, I just noticed a lot of my own language and issues in your post and I would like to offer some suggestions. IF I am wrong or have misundertood you, then I sincerely apologise


Good Luck
 
 
Skeleton Camera
18:54 / 15.03.04
Good thread. I've been sorting a lot of my 'dark side' out in the past few months, those being the climax of a good two years of explosive growth. And the time had come to confront the shadow side of things.
I broke my right hand two months ago and about the same time my girlfriend started confronting me with long-festering sores in our relationship. This began a landslide of realizing just how insensitive, cold, dishonest and remote I can be, and while these may not seem a mortal sin, they were qualities I was completely ignorant (or completely in denial) of for most of my life. And, operating under the surface, these qualities controlled so much of my behavior that I had managed to deeply hurt and offend some of my closest friends (and girlfriend).
I began attacking my demon a year ago, a demon of paranoia. It took me a long time to assimilate that facet, and I thought that was it. But in taking down my paranoia the personas I had built to cope with it began to fall apart and my entire indentity soon followed. Most recently this has been the above confrontation with my "shithead" side.
But this isn't truly the dark side of the force, this is the cover I slapped on it. Maybe if I disengage from things, I won't hurt anyone and no one will hurt me. But these fears are paralyzing and alienating. So here comes the struggle with the dark side: balancing a strength and ego and self-acceptance without letting them hurt others or cut my own legs from under me.

I've been fascinated with 'dark' things for most of my life. These have run the spectrum twice over. When I was young it was guns, weapons, killers, violence etc. As I got older the interests became more spooky and in high school I was high goth. I still consider this spookiness a positive, at times spiritual sensibility. (To clarify, spooky doesn't mean 'spooky kid,' but Halloween, Dia de los Muertos, Sleepy Hollow, etc. The immanence, portent, and potential of Autumn.)
But as I've gone through college, moved around, and analyzed myself to the point of pain I've eliminated the expression of this spooky mentality. It's immature, right? I'm 21, no time for this, need to grow up...right?
WRONG, apparently.
I don't feel as if there's a monster within that is going to boil over. Instead I feel as if my personal energy and direction depends on the strength this thing possesses, and the struggle is to integrate it into my daily life. It's Apollo and Dionysus, maturity and immaturity, needing to blend.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
19:06 / 15.03.04
You know what, my favourite films are the type where someone gets a great big sword, chops someones head off and gets covered in blood. Does that mean I have a 'dark side'... nope because I don't believe in that kind of polarity. You're splitting your personality and emphasising one part of it as bad. Why are you doing this to yourself?

You have all these female friends, you were prepared to be a hardcore feminist- that doesn't sound like actual misogyny, women-hating is an action more than a thing in your own head. Pull yourself together, pull your dark side back in to yourself.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
19:07 / 15.03.04
Oh and don't dislike women, just take them on an individual basis, you don't sound all that misogynistic anyway. So you get off on being dominant, big deal, so do lots of people.
 
 
Joetheneophyte
04:40 / 16.03.04
Scarey how much your sound like me at times in there

Yes having sex will release some of your fears but Reich did not believe sexual release was the answer.......he said it was orgiastic potency

Mental hospitals are filled with people who masturbate all day and yet their troubles stay with them. It is not the sexual release but the therapy that coincides with the sexual release that he thoght was important

He said that a Neurotic (and Reich believed that in the West that was just about all of us) was incapable of full sexual release. His aim in therapy was to remove the blockages or "character armour" that had built up over a person's lifetime. This in turn would allow the person to fully discharge the built up tensions via orgasm

The sex part was hand in hand with the therapy....Not the be all and end all in itself. Now I may be wrong here but until you find some inner peace or at least see a counsellor, I suspect from the numerous issues that you will just take your problems with you. Don't get me wrong, I am in no way qualified to state this but I would suspect that yes you would improve being in a loving relationship but like myself, I believe some of your issues go deeper.
You are incredibly hard on yourself. Conditioning is one thing but you sound like you have Imprint issues that need dealing with.

Regarding your parents: I do not think showering with your child is abuse. I know that is NOT what you meant but sadly in these days of paranoia and scare stories, it is just as likely that your parents either forgot or they didn't want to admit they had showered with you or your siblings due to all the fear and hyperbole surrounding this issue. Again a therapist may help you explore these issues but choose with care

Some therapists if you mention such a suspicion will go looking for this and they may actually convince you something like this did happen.


Anyway, good luck. You are not a loser.....the intelligence you display in your post conveys a confused and admittedly scared human, trying to live up to unreaslistic ideals. Like most of us really


Good luck and I hope I did not come accross as patronising, your life mirrors my own in so many ways and I am still not past all my problems but still a hell of a lot better than I was ten years ago
 
 
--
13:46 / 16.03.04
Just for the record, the last thing I posted I had removed because I thought it made me sound too neurotic and paranoid (though when I told the administrators to remove it I lied and said a friend had posted it pretending to be me). Since I posted it I've asked other people I know if their parents ever took showers with them when they were kids, and most of them said yes, so I guess it really isn't that weird after all.
 
 
cusm
15:37 / 16.03.04
For the record, I've showered with my kids, with wife and sister-in-law too. It was an outdoors public group shower thing at a nudist friendly campgrounds, so it was really quite unimportant. I don't think there's anything wrong with that sort of thing as long as its seen as unremarkable. People only get issues if they're taught to care about it.
 
 
---
16:51 / 16.03.04
You're splitting your personality and emphasising one part of it as bad. Why are you doing this to yourself?

Pull yourself together, pull your dark side back in to yourself.


And how would you propose doing this?
 
 
eddie thirteen
17:09 / 16.03.04
It sounds to me like you're trying too hard to define yourself as "good" or "bad," Sypha, when I suspect you really do know that no one is all one thing or the other. For all of that...whoo boy. I mean, I've been through pretty much all of this same stuff myself, and I can't lie and say I'm "past" any of it; about as close to an epiphany that I've had on the subject is the realization that you *don't* get past it, you kinda either make peace with the notion of yourself as a not-necessarily-stable brew of influences and notions and identity constructs, or you don't.

The important thing to consider here, I think, is this: What would you be without your "dark" side? From what you're describing here, it sounds to me like your dark side is inextricably wound up with your sexual identity...or, to be frank, what gets you off, sexually. I personally don't think that can be changed...I mean, I can't tell you why a girl in black latex turns me on, but I'm certainly powerless to change it. Hell, when Anna said the thing about "my favourite films, dot dot dot, *and gets covered in blood*," I won't lie, I kinda went, "Ohhhhhhh!" It just is what it is. If for any reason I became uncomfortable with my fetishes, if the only real method I saw of dealing with them was to perform a kind of psychic sexual lobotomy, then my little droogie, I think I would have to choose to have my dark side take full sway over me. Though I would be Dark Eddie at that point, destroyer of worlds, I would still be able to get a hard-on, and -- though it may be selfish -- I consider this at least as important as the survival of human civilization. Anyway, I know I sure don't give a fuck about civilization if I'm not allowed to have an orgasm there. And neither should you!

But I think the real question is whether you think it's "good" to be a masochist...i.e., to wilt away from the world and let others dictate your "proper" desires to you...and "bad" to be a sadist. Many people are quite happy to be masochists, y'know. And people many people are also quite happy to be sadists. And, often, if these desires are not given a proper outlet, you find latent sexual sadists who are total bastards to random people in their everyday lives, latent sexual masochists who lack personal direction...or, depending on one's level of personal confusion, the reverse...it's just a big fuckin' mess. As it were. But I don't see any reason why being a sexual sadist -- a "dom," in the parlance of s/m -- means you're a terrible guy. I think it comes down to a weird "close your eyes and think of England" attitude toward sex that has afflicted both men and women in basically any country dominated (badly!) by Catholicism for, basically, ever, wherein any sex act that doesn't have the underpinning of leading to reproduction -- from homosexuality to, like, blowjobs, to say nothing of tying people up, et cetera -- is viewed as deviant. And, of course, these are the people WHO FUCK LITTLE KIDS! So, really, what the hell do they know. Other than how it feels to fuck a little kid, of course.
 
 
Joetheneophyte
04:57 / 17.03.04
I fyou believe the model proposed by Robert Anton Wilson and Dr Timothy Leary, then our sexuality is the result of Imprints

Certain vulnerable times in our lives, we are exposed to some stimulus that has a much deeper and more lasting affect on us than mere conditioning. A sort of one shot learning.

There were allegedly a lot of Men in Britain who were sexually turned on by gas masks after world war two. The theory was that the closeness of the pubescent boys huddled together with women in the air raid shelters, coupled with the sight of rubber was their FIRST turn on and subsequently they couldn't get past this rubber fetish in later life


I suspect it had something to do with the whole fear/excitement matter with them being in air raid shelters but the theory remains that possibly fetishes and kinks are learned early in life, coupled with some change in physiology (fear/sexual turn on) and later in life this pattern keeps manifesting itself

Leary actually claims that he could re-access these ImPRINTS via LSD and psychotherapy. He claims (but his research was ceased due to law enforcement) that he was actually able to change people's sexual preference using this method. Before anybody goes mental on here......these were consenting adults asking him to help them with their issues.......he was not a fascist as far as I could tell


Anyway, Wilson believes that the Holotropic Breathwork of Stanislov Grof can also access Imprints (presumably Leonard Orr's work can do similar) though there is a chapter towards the end of Tantra Without Tears (Hyatt.....a contemporary of Wilson)
In said chapter it is mentioned how Reichian therapy was unable to change the writer's fascination with strangulation (it may even be a fictional piece I cannot say)

Part of Orgone/ Reichian therapy consists of breathing in a similar way to the breathwork advocated by Orr and Grof


I was put off Breathwork as when I researched it, it seemed to me that the hyperventilating was depriving the brain of oxygen and I didn't like the sound of that (the body believes because there is a drop in Carbon Dioxide concentration, then it ceases to take up any additional oxygen from the blood.....I believe the blood vessels in the brain are also affected.....sounded a little risky to me)


Anyway, the advice given on here is good. Don't get rid of your dark side as it is often your motivating power and ego etc. Come to terms with it and as the advice above says "stop treating it like another person"

It is you



Again good luck. Now does anybody else think that it is strange or very explanable that many of us drawn to Magick, are also people who have struggled with such psychological conundrums?
 
 
illmatic
08:07 / 17.03.04
Hey Joe, good post. I've tried a lot of the breathwork stuff and it's great, well recomended. I didn't feel like I was depriving my brain of anything, though perhaps I've picked up brain damage without knowing it, would explain some of my posts on here. If you can provide a link to something that explains the biology behind the stuff you mentioned, that would be great. Reich's theory - you're probably aware of this if you've done any research into the area - was that we inhibit our breathing as children to guard us from intense and unpleasent emotions, and eventually learn to live and become accustomed to this limited capacity. Full breathing - not hyperventlation - is a "hot line" that reconnects us with these emotions and bodily sensations. In my experience, this is certainly true. The difference between hyper-ventelation and full breathing would be that in the former, there's no relaxation. With the Reichian style breathing, one should be breathing into the abdomen, not the chest, and discharging/relaxing fully at the end of each breath.

As to all the darkside stuff mentioned above, Sypha, don't know what to say really. We can all imagine ourselves doing horrible things, perhaps we would do them if the circumstances were right (or wrong). This doesn't mean we have a part of us inside that we should be scared of. This sounds like medieval Christian thinking about the devil all over again. I think that fundamentalist Christians are so busy denying their "darkside" that they project it onto others, 'cos they can't take ownership of it. There's an odd dualtiy here - there will always be a fascination with the taboo areas of culture or experience, as the fact they are taboo, makes them more interesting. Remember, the people who do the most fucked up things in the world, are normally people wwho see themeselves as "Servants of the Light". Look at what happened when the Nazis tried to cleanse themselves. A little bit of dirt and darkness is good for us.

Oh, and to go back to Reich again - repeating myself on Barbelith again, maybe I really have run out of ideas - Reich felt that we aren't solely repressing our atavistic, bloodly adn anti-social urges. He felt that what we really scared of, what really puts the fear of bloody god into us and we'll run miles to avoid, is our tenderness and vulnerability.
 
 
Joetheneophyte
09:59 / 17.03.04
HAPPY TO SUPPLY THE LINK (in work at present so cannot read all your post properly until I get home)


Is REBIRTHING dANGEROUS?


www.globalideasbank.org/rebirthing.html


even though this fella mentions some health concerns, I believe he is still pretty pro-rebirthing
 
 
Joetheneophyte
10:15 / 17.03.04
Oh the rebirthing stuff that Orr advocates (Leonard Orr)......isn't (I believe) quite teh same as the breathing Reich advocated (you have me at a disadvantage here as I am only book taught and you have been through it so if I am wrong, please forgive me)


Orr advocates more rapid than normal breathing and high up in the chest, whereas you seem to be saying that Reich offered more abdomen type deep breathing


That is purely from memory so if I am wrong, again, please forgive me


My problem with Rebirthing was the POTENTIAL I saw for brain damage........one of my pet fears is the fear of brain damage, so I backed out of this at the eleventh hour

A doctor with whom I work had a quick scan over the info contained in the link above and he said that his concern was where it said that after awhile of this rapid breathing, the body goes into a sort of autopilot and that breathing remains in place without the conscious awareness of the client

He was concerned that even with the facilitator watching, the possibility of depriving the brain of oxygen was to great as the body of the client went into this state. He said to him, it read as if the body's usual self regulation would be sidelined and that this might become chronic


I am not a medical person but some of the comments in this well written article and also made by the doctor with whom I work, did cause me concern
 
 
illmatic
10:22 / 17.03.04
Joe, thanks for that link it's great. I'm going to print it off so I can digest it properly. Might have to buy that book! I must say though that I've been doing this stuff for a few years and I've never noticed any adverse effects.
 
 
illmatic
10:29 / 17.03.04
Hey joe, sorry didn't see your extra comments. I don't want to sound like Mr Clever Clever Dismissive, I'm going to read that article closley and take it all on board. I would be surprised if you could produce brain damage soley through a change in the breathing, but I'm not a doctor so what do I know? I must say though, I've never come across any accounts of people damaged in this way, and with the negative press alternative medicine tends to get, you'd think stories would be circulating if this has ever happened.
 
 
Skeleton Camera
14:43 / 17.03.04
What are the broader takes on the 'dark side'? In Qilipothic terms whatever your dark side or shadow is would be your shell, your husk. But it seems to have a much heavier weight than that. It's a self-negating force, whether externalized or internalized. Guilt, sex, violence... are these cultural programs, ingrained into our post-post-Catholic skulls? Or is there another dynamic going on here, a "human self-destruct mechanism" of sorts. An entropic tendency towards being that manifests, in our realities, as sex/violence/guilt/pain. It's not as easy as are-you-sick, are-you-healthy, which a lot of people here have been saying.
Must run. Talk amongst yourselves.
 
 
gale
16:17 / 17.03.04
How powerful is this part of you that you call dark? Maybe you could use that power for yourself. Like the earlier post that said take control of your demon and tell it "you will do things my way." Sometimes it's better to use so much power than just banish it and cast it aside.

I made a deal with one of my dark aspects--everyone has them--I very carefully worded the agreement ,so that when a or b happens, you will do this or this, and I wil give you x, y,and z. I have had no problems with it since, (which is good 'cause I have plenty of others!) and I am on friendly terms with something that was really pretty negative. I also think alot of this stuff is related to what happened to us in the past.

I tried to go back and work through the past, and every time I did, I would get sick (a cold, or something) and usually kept feeling worse rather than better, and certainly not purged in any way. If you are really bothered by feelings you have, and they have a lot of power over you, turn the tables. You are the one in control. As an extreme measure, Phil Hine recommended in one of his books to offer it death (ie, threaten to kill yourself--emphasis on threaten) the next time your demon acts up. That usually gets them to behave, since without you they are nothing.

Hope this helped
 
 
--
02:26 / 18.03.04
There have been many interesting responses here that I am grateful for.
Anyway, I'm glad Grof was mentioned as I've become interested in his book "Psychology of the Future" again, especially the BPM stages and the idea that bad experiences in our past can burn themselves into our brain programs and become re-activated at future dates when a similiar situation appears. I'm going through many changes at the moment (new job, new social life, new emotions) and one part of my personality is moving into the future, while the old part is trying as hard as it can to keep things the way they are. But I HATE things the way they are, yet I also fear change. What a mess.

I've become interested in breathwork, haven't really tried it yet, will need to research that whole brain thing so I know what I'm getting into. But it seems everyone has an opinion. Some people think breathwork is good, others bad. Some people think meditation's the answer, others no. Some people recommened anti-depression meds, others don't. After awhile I get blind-sided by all these opinions and I can never be sure who is right and who is wrong. Paralyzed by choice, in other words. Illmatic, that bit about projecting dark sides on to others is interesting, Howard Bloom wrote about that in "The Lucifer Principle", about the conveinanvce of enemies to project our own fears and tabboos on (while at the same time indulging in those tabboos and secret desires... Maybe Orwell had secret fascist fetishes).

Anyway, as I stated, most of my guilt towards this so-called "dark side" isn't so much what I think about it but worries about what others would think (parents, friends, etc.) For example, a few weeks back I wrote down my reactions while working on one of those violent short story exercises. In this example it was a story about a woman anally fucked by a butcher knife, of all things. When working on the story I felt the usual pleasure sensations where they'd be expected, YET at the same time I also felt a very tense feeling in my stomach and chest, mainly about the fear of someone else reading this and getting the wrong idea (the old guilt factor again). So it was pleasure and unpleasure (I should add that in these stories it doesn't matter which gender is being abused, the reactions are still primarily the same: descriptions of men being raped, killed or sexually tortured are just as much a turn on, which I guess is my bisexuality rearing it's head). Interestingly enough, these same reactions occur if I'm writing a "normal" love scene, be it hetero or homo sexual in nature... pleasure plus guilt (catholic imprints perhaps?) Anyway, I don't just get off on blood and guts and stuff. I've never had sex but I imagine I'd probably be quite passive.

However, that bit about tenderness and vulnerability got me to thinking about how much easier it is to hate someone then it is to love someone. take the despicable Fred Phelps (of the godhatesfags website infame) for example. Here is a man who, to me, would be nearly impossible to love as it seems he's made hate his sole reason to exist. But isn't it easier for me to hate him then it is to love him? Sometimes I wish I were a sufi or something. 'Love your enemies' to quote William S. Burroughs. There is a tender side to me, I mean I love my cats with all my heart and I've nursed insects back to health and stuff, but I have immense difficulty showing tenderness to humans (in real life at least) and I never make myself vulnerable, because I'm afraid of being hurt or something, which probably explains my lack of a love life. Anyway, I'm trying to work on this at the moment.

Gale, threatening to kill the dark side would be useless as I've been suicidal for months now anyway (it appears both my good side and my bad side, to use binary terms, are very depressed). maybe I just need some kind of reconciliation. Anyway, I'm planning on starting my first official book soon, but it needs a villian, so I'm tossing in an ultra-sadistic Marquis Desade type "bad guy". This way I can indulge in these dark fantasies and still get art from it... I think I have more to offer to the world of literature then just violent writing, and that's only a very small interest out of hundreds of my other interests (for example, alternative science, voodoo, surrealist films, beat writers, etc.)
 
 
Seth
06:36 / 18.03.04
There's some NLP that can help reintegrate this kind of thing, if you've chosen to describe yourself as having a *dark* side. In fact there's a huge number of techniques that would work, but you'd probably want to find a practitioner who can understand your language and improvise with the structure rather than just running through the set formula that you'd get out of a book. You wouldn't do any harm if you tried by yourself, but you'd be significantly less likely to get decent (or any) results without training.

To give an example, I chose to describe what I perceived to be a dislocated part of myself as my *anima.* The metaphor seemed to fit what I was experiencing, at least. The reintegration took a while to process, and in some ways I'm still experiencing the long-term effects. There was a period where I had to switch preferred drinks and cigarette brands (you might find yourself doing a few different things to honour the changes that are taking place). Have fun!
 
 
illmatic
08:08 / 18.03.04
First off, I'd say I hope no one is put off doing breathwork by the comments above, or rather uses it as an excuse for procrastination. There's another bloody procrastination in magical circles anyway, the last thing we need is some spurious health concern to give people an excuse to sit on their hands for another few years. "Oh, I'll just research this ... " what that probably means is "I'll look up a webpage about it, half read it, think "oh well, it might be a bit dodgy, I'll put it off till next week" and the weeks turn to months, and the months to years... if you're interested in something, JUST BLOODY DO IT or stop pretending your interest is practical. Sorry, got a bit ranty there. Obviously these comments count for all areas of the occult and the rest of our lives, not just breathwork.

Re: the concerns raised above - I've been doing this kind of work for years and I know two people who have worked professionally in this area, and it isn't something that I've ever heard mentioned. It's possibly I'm being overly dismissive but is there real cause for concern or is it just yet another bloody excuse? Not to say this work won't make you feel very uncomfortable at times - it will - but brain damage? Hmmm....

But isn't it easier for me to hate him then it is to love him? ...I have immense difficulty showing tenderness to humans (in real life at least) and I never make myself vulnerable, because I'm afraid of being hurt

I think you've nailed the essence of Reich's work right there, Sypha. I get very annoyed sometimes with the tendency in counter cultural circles to think of acting out anti-social or destructive tendencies as somehow iconoclastic or revoltionary. Reich uses the phrase "running" at lot. A lot of these outbursts, fascination with death, destruction, faeces, sodomy - all the nasty stuff, are just more ways of "running" from that which we find really threatening. genuine love, openess, vulnerability. Not saying I find this stuff easy to express because I don't. But at least I don't pretend sticking up pictures of Charles Manson on my wall is somehow a more authentic expression of my "inner self". A quote is in order I think (relating Reich's ideas to Thelema - "I know many Thelelemites in this country, open, honest, trusting and free.... but most of them are under 7 years of age". (Mike Magee).

If you liked the part about projection, that idea was nicked from Ramsey Dukes, I don't remember which essay exactly, maybe one of the one's about Satanism. Well worth checking out.
 
 
eddie thirteen
08:45 / 18.03.04
Hmmmmmmm. Maybe it's just me, but I'm kinda "ehhhhh...I dunno" about the value judgments implicit in this line of thinking. Yes, I agree that intimacy is more frightening than just about anything, but at the same time, I have a major problem with the notion that sexual fetishes are the equivalent of running from intimacy. For one thing, I know for a fact it isn't so -- bdsm, for instance, often exists within the context of a loving relationship. And the apparent equivalency between drawn here between death, destruction, shit and sodomy...whoa whoa whoa, hold on there, partner. I'm getting that itchy feeling of sexual repression again. I think most of us can agree that death and destruction are bad, and probably have no place in the bedroom; shit certainly isn't something I wanna see there, either, but y'know, to each their own. And sodomy? Uh...that covers a whole lot of ground, man. I'd post more, but I'm kinda busy at present -- still, I think you get the gyst of what's got me raising an eyebrow over here....
 
 
illmatic
11:01 / 18.03.04
Eddie: Sorry if I was unclear. I ws just sounding off against a whole load of imagery which is lumped together and presented as "transgressive" and shocking, all the stuff that gets lumped together as dark, scary, taboo, to the point where it's just a cliche. What I had in mind when posting was people like Whitehouse and Peter Sotos (threads on both of these in music and books respectively) who present these kind of imagery alongside the notion that "this is what is really repressed ...this is what you all really want, if only you could face up to your true desires, you shallow squares" . To which I'm a bit like - hmmm.... What I'm trying to say is that there are other emotions and feelings that are supressed along with the taboo and nasty stuff. Without this kind of context, maybe that post does look a bit odd maybe. It's kind of lazy in that I lump a lot of disparate phenomena together. Anyway man, post more, please do...
 
 
illmatic
11:06 / 18.03.04
To clarify again, if it wasn't obvious, I'm not against anyone exploring or checking out this stuff, each ot their own as you say. It's just thatsometimes this whole constellation of taboos gets presented as a bit Hey! Trangressive! Wow, serial killers, nazis and extreme industrial Music! Hope you get what I mean.
 
 
ghadis
12:50 / 18.03.04
This is a great thread. Loads of really interesting ideas.

I spent some time at the end of last year doing some similer stuff to what you're describing Sypha. Exploring ideas of sex and death and my percieved connections between the 2.
 
 
_Boboss
12:57 / 18.03.04
maybe though exploring sex is a better idea for the syph than exploring the idea of sex, no?

want to get yourself a shag before you try to uncover your sexself through holotropic breathwork i reckon
 
 
illmatic
13:07 / 18.03.04
I don't think you should call him "the syph" in the context of this thread. It has unfortunate connotations.
 
 
ghadis
13:10 / 18.03.04
Sorry...for some reason that posted when i was halfway through a paragraph. I'll carry on.

I started off exploring aspects of violence and death that i did find sexually attractive and then moved onto stuff that i did not. Things got quite hairy and messy quite soon as i was spending a long time each day on this stuff. After a while this peaked and i did get some very interesting results from the workings although it took me a while afterwoods to bring myself back into some sort of balance both physically and emotionally. I don't want to go into too much detail as i'm in the middle of a period of related workings at the moment.
I don't think i was trying to purge my dark side more dredge it up and examine it and see what it can be used for. I think this certainly happened and the way i relate to certain things in life has changed drastically as a result.

As for the Reichian stuff. I havn't done much of it myself but what little i have done came in very handy when i was going through that period after the initial work when i felt unbalenced and blocked. I've been using those exercises quite a lot again this week and also some out of this book which is really good (what i've read of it so far anyway...only downloaded it a few days ago)
 
 
ghadis
13:14 / 18.03.04
and it's got a fab cover...not many shaved legs in that group i'll bet
 
 
_Boboss
14:00 / 18.03.04
Cripes! I hadn't thought of that!

sorry sypha nadon, no harm meant. And fwiw, i think you're a real gonn kid for being able to share this stuff with us, and that we should all give you a big clap.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
16:33 / 18.03.04
i think you're a real gonn kid for being able to share this stuff with us, and that we should all give you a big clap.

You want to give the syph the big clap?
 
 
--
18:11 / 18.03.04
Seth, I've heard a bit about NLP, but I've never actually read about it. Something I plan to get to, one of these days...

Illmatic, yes I agree that the above stated reasons should not stop anyone from procastinating over breathwork or what not. Interestingly enough brain damage is also something that greatly concerns me... Then again I worry that I'm brain damaged now so it really shouldn't bother me much. But the old "Just Do It" phrase is perhaps the toughest magical mantra I have trouble following as I tend to drag my feet about these things for long periods of time. Also, I can see how many people would link sodomy with transgression (not saying you do) but I never have, I mean it's very common in the animal kingdom... just like eating feces and stuff. Ramsey Dukes is someone else I've been looking for but none of the bookstores in my area stock his stuff. I find it interesting that I happened to get into all this "transgressive art" (ie. Whitehouse, Sotos, Dennis Cooper, etc.) about the same time I started to question these things. But every type of art I encounter I always try to extract something from.

I'm not sure what kind of negative connotation the word "Syph" has... short for syphilis I suppose?
 
 
ghadis
18:24 / 18.03.04
You can get hold of some of Ramsey Dukes' stuff as e-books here
 
 
Joetheneophyte
18:25 / 18.03.04
DON'T let me put you off Breathwork. Just do the research yourself and then decide whether it is for you. I personally did not have the courage.

NLP......the classics are Frogs Into Princes, Tranceformations, Reframing ............By Richard Bandler and John Grinder (some of these are I belive out of print but good introductory books)

Changing Beliefs by Robert Dilts, is another good one that I really enjoyed.

Again I read a lot of NLP stuff about 7 years ago. For me it did not achieve the results I was after but I admit, there are a hell of a lot of charlatans out there who claim they are accredited by one body or another and this might just mean they went on one or two weekend courses.

In the hands of a skilled practitioner, I believe it does have a lot of potential.

more complex introductory books about NLP are "The Structure of Magic"
volumes 1 and 2 by Bandler and Grinder.

Also (if it is of interest to you) look out for Bandler and Grinder's books "The Hypnotic Techniques of Milton Erickson MD" vols 1 and 2 (vol 2 being co authored by Judith De Lozier)


All excellent. Lost touch with the field somewaht over the last 5 or so years. Bandler has turned into Gandalf, black nail varnish and goatee beard. Grinder has taken the intellectual route and whilst undoubtedly incredibly clever, his work is too complex for a mere mortal like me to understand. He was a Professor of Linguistics and his new work would make Noam Chomsky have to scratch his head.

Genius but not as easy to read or follow as Bandler (imo)
 
  

Page: (1)2

 
  
Add Your Reply