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Rites and rights, the one-stop pagan shop

  
 
salix lucida
15:49 / 12.03.04
Gypsy Lantern brought up "living relationships" with Gods in the wounded shamans etc thread and suggested a threadstart if someone wanted to continue talking about those issues. I'm not the person addressed, but I've been having those issues lately and trying to find a way and a place to bring them up, so fuck it for a lark:

"Working with Gods is about relationships. Do you have a living relationship with any one of the names you've just reeled off like a game of top trumps? I mean a relationship that lifts your heart and chills your soul in equal measures? If you want to accomplish something in somebody's names, get to know them first. To quote a sorcerous geezer: "There's a difference between doing a rite, and having the right". There's no shortcuts and there's no such thing as a free lunch."

Since a rather early age, I've had the sort of religious calling that one in my area/culture usually hears about from priests, ministers, and the like. I've developed what I think Gypsy's referring to as such a relationship with several godforms, mostly of Norse tradition, since, well, in some cases since I was still Catholic but didn't want to be a nun. Out of many half-jokes amongst my current misfit tribe of friends has come a title that I am their priestess, and I do serve as an advisor and one to do various readings and rituals for some of them. The crux of the issue (yeah, i finally got to it) is that some work with deities I *don't* have this working relationship with, yet I still get drafted to serve this role on their behalf. And I don't know what to do, then. I don't connect very well with certain of the godforms (mostly male or 'way out of my cultural context' ones) but I've still got to do *something*. I don't want to address them with a "hey, Joe sent me" as if I've got the right to say that and walk into a place. But I haven't the foggiest how to connect, or how to work with things that I'm not personally aligned with, as it were. but I've got people coming to me about it just the same. I need to work out how to do one or the other, or shut it all off and go hide somewhere.

Some days, that all-consuming monotheism looks a lot better in retrospect. I can't really go back, though. So I seek direction, and directions on how to get there, where I can.

----

I'm not even sure if this is "magick" related enough to be discussed here, but damn if I know where else to discuss it and it's been eating away at me for a while. There's some great people here whose opinions I respect, so I figured it couldn't hurt to try and throw it out there in hopes someone might have something to say.
 
 
LVX23
06:08 / 13.03.04
Of the myriad godforms out there, many are reflections of similar archetypes. Osiris-Christ: the dying and resurrected man; Horus-Ares-Mars: the warrior prince; Thoth-Ganesh-Hermes: the word, communication; Inanna-Isis-Ishtar: nature personified as female; etc.... If you really feel drawn to this role as non-denominational priestes, then you may wish to start cultivating relationships with representatives of the different archetypes. If you understand the fundamental character of say, the Christ figure, and the other forms/deities it manifests as, then you will be easily able to cater to the diversity of your flock, as it were.

Oh, and read Joseph Campbell's Power of Myth, if you haven't already.
 
 
Ticker
14:53 / 14.06.07
I'm bumping this because I've been thinking about pagan ministry of late.

I've poked about online and there are a few places which offer ordination and even a seminary school in Vermont seeking accreditation.

So you're a non mainstream practitioner and you want to do hospice work or prison or some such. I believe most ministers are paid by their churches a living wage so with an obvious lack of that sort of system a pagan minister is out there one hir own?

There are also a bucket load of Thanatology courses out there which is seem handy as well. So you rack up some degrees and training to get your foot in the door and go visit the people in need?

If you were in need of comfort and counselling what background would you want your care provider to have?
 
 
EvskiG
15:17 / 14.06.07
Consider the Harvard Divinity School Master of Divinity program.

Rigorous and serious but incredibly non-sectarian.

And access to the resources of a university with almost unimaginable resources and fantastic classes in every conceivable subject.

Here's a blurb:

The variety of traditions our students represent has increased as well. Our students come from a range of Christian backgrounds—mainline Protestant, Roman Catholic, Orthodox, evangelical, and Pentecostal. We have a significant number of Unitarian Universalist students, and a growing number of students from Buddhist, Hindu, Jewish, and Muslim communities who are preparing for religious leadership in the MDiv program. Our curriculum is built around the critical study of the histories, theologies, literatures, and practices of Christianity, but it is spacious enough to allow for field and classroom study in other traditions as well. Indeed, the serious study of traditions other than Christianity is a hallmark of the MDiv program at Harvard Divinity School. We believe that the study of religious worlds distinct from our own challenges us to consider the family resemblances among human concerns, to see the rich diversity of responses to such human concerns as a resource for thinking anew within our own tradition.

XK, I got the impression you may have taken classes there before.
 
 
EvskiG
15:30 / 14.06.07
Look at this recent event at the university:

Forging Folklore: Witches, Pagans and Neo-Tribal Cultures

Panel 1:

The Magic Box: Neo-Folklore, Cyber-Magic and Technopaganism

Leslie Roth, Independent scholar
Authenticity Backlash: Technopagans, Chaos Magicians, and Postmodern Narratives of the Occult

David Kociemba, Emerson College, Boston
Forging Neo-Folklore through Role-Playing Games

Wendi Wilkerson, University of Louisiana, Lafayette
Curse-Poles, Cyberlore, Appropriation, and Tradition: The Case of the Digital Nidstang

Panel 2:

Shadows of Books: Narrative Forms and Folklore

Matthieu Boyd, Harvard University
Pagan Past and Christian Present in the Realm of Breton Folklore: How Appropriate a Framework?

Randy P. Luncyzyns Conner, CIIS, San Francisco
Aradia, a Neo-Pagan Sutra

Lindsay Coleman, University of Melbourne
Father-monster and Fauns: The Faun as Father Surrogate in Guillermo del Toro’s Pan’s Labyrinth

2:15 pm Keynote Address

Professor Ronald Hutton, Bristol University, England
Modern Pagan Festivals

Panel 3:

Blood of the Ancients: Ethnicity and Authenticity

Sabina Magliocco, California State University – Northridge
From the Enchanted Worldview to re-Enchanting the World: Italian and Italian American Vernacular Religion

Hanneke Minkjan, University of Amsterdam the Netherlands
'Nehalennia-Anna.' Changing Images of the Goddess in the Question for Authenticity in the Dutch Goddess Movement

K.A. Laity, the College of St. Rose, NY
Finnish Charms: Appropriating Folk Magic from the Kalevala and Kanteletar

Panel 4:

The Learning Times: Narratives, Texts and Knowledge

Lisa M. Vetere, Monmouth University
Othering the Puritan: Witchcraft Narratives, Liberal Myths and Economic Realities

Susan Harper-Bisso, University of Texas at Arlington
Psychic Aunts and Weird Kids: Neo-Pagan Conversion Narrative Themes as Folklore

Linda Lee, University of Pennsylvania
Are Witches Born or Made? Ambiguity and the Acquisition of Magical Knowledge

6:30 pm Reception and Guest Lecture

R. J. Stewart, Author and Folklorist
The Fakelore Question: or, Grandmothers Across the Atlantic

Panel 5:

Real Magic: Rites, Rituals and Traditions

Rebecca A. Hunt, University of Colorado at Denver
Neal Forsling: Crimson Dawn and Midsummer’s Eve

Galina Krasskova, Empire State College, New York
Animal Sacrifice and the Ritual of Blót in Modern Heathenry: An Ethnographic Exploration

Shelley J. Khadem, New School for Social Research, New York
Native Americans in Spiritual Discourse and Practice

Panel 6:

Reclaiming: Cultural Appropriation and Identity

Byron Ballard, Independent scholar
Hillfolk Hoodoo and the Question of Cultural Strip-mining

Alexis Chapman, Independent Scholar
Searching for Authenticity: the New Myths of American Pagans

Roundtable Discussion 12:00-12:30 pm
 
 
Imaginary Mongoose Solutions
15:44 / 14.06.07
A close friend of mine was at that conference. (Sadly, communications issues stopped her from giving her own tarot paper there.) She came back with a lot of good things to say about the whole experience.
 
 
Ticker
15:50 / 14.06.07
XK, I got the impression you may have taken classes there before.

I have through the Extension school. In fact almost all of my academic credits toward my degree were through there. A wonderful option if you can do it.

I was invited into the Celtic Lit and Lang department but my family pointed out the cost to attend would be greater than I could pay off with the graduate degree. Plus having to learn a min of 3 languages is a bit overwhelming when you barely know how to use your own. 'Twas the great sad crossroad decision of my youth.

But yeah, Harvard, not a readily affordable option . I'll go poke around the Extension school site and see what the poor peep's version is running at.
 
 
Ticker
15:56 / 14.06.07
oh and I was looking at this as well:

CIIS: Women' Spirituality MA/PhD
 
 
EvskiG
15:59 / 14.06.07
But yeah, Harvard, not a readily affordable option .

There's always financial aid -- and in particular, grants or scholarships that (unlike loans) never need to be repaid. Harvard has a fair chunk of change for that sort of thing, especially for a do-gooder field like the ministry.

And there seem to be a few scholarships for pagans knocking around the web.

But believe me, I understand the cost issue.
 
 
Ticker
18:05 / 14.06.07
huh.

I never thought about putting the hat out to get a scholarship to be your friendly local neo pagan minister... but the program is pretty heavily centered around the major Abrahamic religions from what I gather. Which considering most people are either in a society that has those values or are coming from a background in it isn't automatically a bad thing mind you. I'm just not sure if it is the correct thing.

If you (Temple folk I'm looking at YOU) are in a dire way and want pastoral care what would be the skill sets you'd like in the person who is sent around?
 
 
Saturn's nod
18:21 / 14.06.07
...want pastoral care what would be the skill sets you'd like in the person who is sent around?

I'd like to see some kind of professional association membership with clearly defined standards of conduct. I want to see that the standards of professional conduct include a decent working definition of confidentiality and the situations in which referral to medical/other services would be taken forward, a clear statement about sexual ethics specifically prohibiting client-counsellor relationships, and some kind of anti-sexist, non-transphobic, anti-racist, anti-homophobic policy.

I have some more thoughts which haven't crystallized yet.
 
 
EmberLeo
18:42 / 14.06.07
XK I'm coming at this one from the other side - Clergy in training.

We have gone over subjects like birth, death, weddings, rapport, rites of passage, the history of paganism in general, and the organization in particular, the various definitions of -theisms... Off the top of my head.

But the main thing I wanted out of training was help figuring out the ethics of the boundaries between me and the people I help, while I'm acting as clergy. Not so much which lines mustn't I cross for their sake (I've pretty much got that part down), but which lines do I draw for my sake. How do I not get sucked into a codependant relationship with my congregant, or somesuch? When is saying "no" refusing to do my duty, and when is saying "yes" more harm than good?

Given the particular nature of the work I am called to, I intend not only to finish my clergy training with The Fellowship of the Spiral Path, but also to acquire (in the long run) a Masters degree in Counseling Psychology.

--Ember--
 
 
Ticker
19:47 / 14.06.07
I'd like to see some kind of professional association membership with clearly defined standards of conduct. I want to see that the standards of professional conduct include a decent working definition of confidentiality and the situations in which referral to medical/other services would be taken forward, a clear statement about sexual ethics specifically prohibiting client-counsellor relationships, and some kind of anti-sexist, non-transphobic, anti-racist, anti-homophobic policy.

Yeah I would too and this is what I'm after, it's very helpful thanks!
Plus I'm adding conflict resolution 'cause these be the Times and all.

As for the clergy training Ember mentions I should probably be more specific in saying I'm approaching this as what are the non ritual bits, I would say non-magical but all of it falls into that category for me.

I might be crazypants here but it's the parts Saturn's Nod mentions and the training required for those creds that I think I need. I've got the chops down for the rest and a decent amount of fieldwork (though I need more).

I'm wondering if the pro association is going to end up something like the UU Church...
Afterall there's not a lot of rogue pagan ministers out there that can offer up the kinds of creds we're discussing.
 
 
grant
19:57 / 14.06.07
Probably easier to get a social work degree.
 
 
*
20:02 / 14.06.07
The problem is that certain degrees often come with restraints that might make it difficult to engage in magical work of particular kinds. A friend is considering an LCSW, but is reluctant because it would mean ze would not be able to practice massage on clients for fear of zir license being taken away.
 
 
EvskiG
20:11 / 14.06.07
I'm wondering if the pro association is going to end up something like the UU Church... After all there's not a lot of rogue pagan ministers out there that can offer up the kinds of creds we're discussing.

There's always CUUPS. I imagine members can avail themselves of all of the resources (including training) of the Unitarian Universalist Church.
 
 
grant
20:14 / 14.06.07
Although there might be something to starting some kind of licensing body....
 
 
grant
20:16 / 14.06.07
A friend is considering an LCSW, but is reluctant because it would mean ze would not be able to practice massage on clients for fear of zir license being taken away.

???

That sounds odd.... maybe your state has different licensure requirements. Is your friend both a certified massage therapist and (potentially) an LCSW?

My better half, she's about to become an LCSW.
 
 
*
20:23 / 14.06.07
I know only what ze's told me, at present. Sorry.
 
 
Quantum
14:51 / 15.06.07
I'd like to see some kind of professional association membership with clearly defined standards of conduct

I've been looking into that for Tarot for a while, but it turns out to be problematic. A lot of people have a vested interest in avoiding, opposing or sabotaging any attempt at regulation, in order to keep purveying their exploitative bullshit. The closest thing I've found is TABI.org
 
 
Quantum
15:01 / 15.06.07
Here is their ethics page FYI;

TABI Reader's Ethics
All readings remain confidential between the client and the reader and, if appropriate, the readers mentor.
All readings will aim to empower the client.
All clients are equal and will be treated with respect.
As a reader I will be open minded, honest and remain non-judgmental.
I will suggest the client contact a qualified professional if appropriate e.g. health or legal professional.
Any payment will be discussed prior to the reading, will be reasonable and within the clients means.
If at any time I feel unable to continue the reading I will withdraw tactfully.
I will use Tarot responsibly e.g. I will not offer to remove or place curses.
I will not knowingly give an e-mail reading to anyone under 18 years of age and will not knowingly give a face-to-face reading for anyone under 18 years of age without permission from their parent or guardian.
I will not undertake reading for anyone other than the client, i.e. third parties.
 
 
Saturn's nod
15:12 / 15.06.07
Mentoring's the factor I've just realised is important to me. The equivalent of supervision in counselling. I'd ideally like to see supervision as an essential part of the ethics code. I realise I expect the supervisor, as well as general coaching, to help the person stay accountable for upholding the agreed code of ethics - and perhaps also for supporting that person in application to the collective to make a change in the ethics code, if it was a collaborative kind of organisation.
 
 
grant
15:42 / 15.06.07
Yeah, the biggest hurdle between the MSW and the LCSW (that's the social work graduate degree and licensure here in the states, where social workers also act as counselors & "life coaches" and what-have-you) is getting the hours of supervision out of the way, since they usually cost a fair amount of money per hour.

I think it's 150 hours here, but I could be off.

My better half lucked into this relationship with a Jungian therapist in which (it seemed from the outside) that some of the supervision hours slid more toward actually having therapy sessions than counseling clients.

I should ask her about pastoral counseling requirements - we've talked about them in the past.
 
 
Saturn's nod
15:53 / 15.06.07
... where social workers also act as counselors & "life coaches"

Wow, cultural difference. Here social workers are Govt funded and if I understand it correctly, their role is limited to preventing/mopping up the worst abuses of children, and they get involved in advocating for adults only if they are mentally ill or have severe learning difficulties, or occasionally if they are institutionalised and very elderly. Counsellors here in the UK are something different: people who do psychotherapeutic work in mostly-talking sessions.
 
 
Saturn's nod
15:54 / 15.06.07
I guess my possibly idealized understanding of supervision for counsellors here is that it's continuous and seen as pretty much an ongoing sanity requirement for practice. I think it's wise that way: and if employed that way can be utilized as I described as an accountability mechanism for upholding an agreed code of ethics.
 
 
Quantum
18:23 / 15.06.07
Saturn's Nod, my thoughts are parallelling yours. TABI *seems* hot on that sort of thing, at leastv on paper;

TABI's Aims
To promote the highest standards of ethics in teaching and reading Tarot
To offer mentoring of a high standard
To promote Tarot as a force for good and development in a person's life
To provide a network of fellow Tarot readers and enthusiasts for mutual support, discussion and experience
To provide information and inspiration via a website and regular e-magazine

Problem is, with a fledgeling organisation, a profession with no regulation that is considered new age quackery by most and a lot of charlatans happy to take advantage of people, you have the problem of accrediting the mentors themselves. I'm hoping to get involved with these particular folk and (long term) influence them toward a counselling model and professional accreditation etc but who knows, the whole organisation could fizzle out.
 
 
Ticker
19:09 / 15.06.07
My better half lucked into this relationship with a Jungian therapist in which (it seemed from the outside) that some of the supervision hours slid more toward actually having therapy sessions than counseling clients.

it's funny you mention that as I was looking at a local Jungian therapist's card and noticed it offered training as well as the regular list of counselling options.
Interesting...
 
 
EvskiG
19:59 / 15.06.07
The Jung Institute (with branches all over the U.S. and the world) offers therapist training that might be right up your alley.

I'd guess Boston is closest to you. It doesn't even require previous clinical training. But it does require at least an M.A. in any field.

(I used to work for the NY branch. Cool place.)
 
 
Ticker
00:13 / 16.06.07
I think this is were I say:

'hey, Ev G you seem to be tapped into the cabinet of XK's lost dream careers, while you're in there any possibility of a space captaincy?'


Right, M.A. Probably ought to be in thanatology.
Maybe something like these guys.
 
 
EmberLeo
03:58 / 16.06.07
As for the clergy training Ember mentions I should probably be more specific in saying I'm approaching this as what are the non ritual bits, I would say non-magical but all of it falls into that category for me.

Ahh, yeah. Although it should be pointed out that for most of the things I listed we discussed the practical human needs behind them far more than the rituals themselves. e.g. When is a teenager ready for an adult-acknowledgement ritual? What are the legal requirements for conducting a wedding? What are the logistics involved in handling a death in the family?. But there are also ritual design and practice topics.

--Ember--
 
 
EvskiG
04:23 / 16.06.07
Ev G you seem to be tapped into the cabinet of XK's lost dream careers, while you're in there any possibility of a space captaincy?

Ev G seems to be thinking about all the roads that he didn't take himself.

Or, at least, that he hasn't taken yet.

Always wanted to be a space captain, too. Or at least James T. Kirk.

As for thanatology, a good friend does hospice work with the Zen Center in San Francisco. If you ever need an introduction . . .
 
 
Ticker
13:00 / 16.06.07
Always wanted to be a space captain, too. Or at least James T. Kirk.

Harvard Divinity trained, Jungian Analyst, James T. Kirk.
Compassionate insightful care of the soul with a healthy dose of charisma. Ass kicking included, shirt optional.

An introduction later this year would be grand!
I'm calling my local hospice this coming week to set up weekly volunteer time.

It will be interesting to test the waters beyond my immediate tribe and see how it feels to tend those in need in regularly occurring dire crisis.
 
 
Saturn's nod
11:04 / 20.06.07
Hugo Schwyzer on sexual harassment and boundaries in the gym, relevance being to the development of professional codes of conduct:

The most sensitive area of my whole presentation dealt with “consensual relationships” between trainers and clients. I reminded the various coaches and trainers at the gym that every national certifying body in the American fitness world considers sexual relations between a trainer and a current client to be profoundly unethical. This gym, like most gyms I’ve been around (and I’ve been around a great many) has a certain percentage of trainers who honor this rule more in the breach than in the observance. I noted the rules barring these sorts of relationships between professors and students, between lawyers and clients, between doctors and patients. “If you want to be seen as the professionals you are”, I said, “then you need to be willing to live up to a professional code of behavior. And you’ve got to do more than just follow the rules yourself — you’ve got to be willing to hold your fellow trainers accountable. Their misbehavior reinforces a stereotype that ends up reflecting badly on you and everyone else in the business.”
 
 
Ticker
13:11 / 20.06.07
Every once in a while I'm able to pull a book I need out of the Great Recycled Library. Which is to say used book stores are my friends...

I scored this gem on Monday when in town:

Ethics in the Sanctuary: Examining the Practices of Organized Religion by Margaret P. Battin

It reviews religious institutions along the same ethics as medical/legal and other professional/client services industry. So far it kicks serious butt.

the author is a super smartypants
 
  
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