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I Don't Believe In Magic At All

 
 
Alex's Grandma
12:48 / 12.03.04
Well, except as something I've read about anyway.

So, you know, a suggested experiment, with observable, quantifiable results, that might go some way to proving me wrong ? Bearing in mind that hard work and I are at best just acquiantances, the kind that don't often meet
 
 
akira
13:11 / 12.03.04
If you want proof and your open minded enough to do it, go to this thread and charge the sigil. When it works I'll post back and tell you.
 
 
agvvv
13:48 / 12.03.04
Fire of a sigil..see what happens. Oh, dont forget, "there is no spoon" bla bla bla
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
14:09 / 12.03.04
You know when you're really anxious about something, like getting a job you really need or sleeping with someone you really have crush on, and everyone you know tells you to relax and it'll probably happen when you're least expecting it - and then it does. The moment you give up all hope of it ever happening and relax your grip, it all somehow all falls into place really weirdly. You ever get that? Well, that seems to be the kind of territory that results magic operates within, and to be good at it, you have to be really good at the kind of sleight of mind that appears to be going on in those strange instances.

At it's simplest level, it's analogous to the guy who goes out and pulls every night, simply because he's not looking for it, is not sending out off-putting signals of desperation to potential partners, and has managed to forego what 'magicians' refer to as 'lust of result'. Although on the surface of things sorcery might appear pretty crude and ridiculous, it's actually a fairly sophisticated technology (for want of a better word) for interacting with this sort of odd observable phenomenon. Or maybe the Living Snakes make it all happen behind the scenes. So long as it works, and you're getting something out of it, then the exact nature of the processes you're engaging could almost be academic.

All of which, of course, makes it quite difficult to dip your toe in the water and expect miraculous results. At it's best, magic is a process you engage with, a journey that you take, not something you can just pick up for five minutes and suddenly be able to do harry potter shit. You have to make an investment. You have to put something on the line. Maybe your sanity, maybe your notions of what constitutes 'objective reality' and what it's boundaries are. You don't get nowt for nowt. I'm going to be terribly dull and repeat what I said in another thread this morning, but the same thing applies here - there's no such thing as a free lunch.

So presuming your post is more than just a bored friday afternoon thing, and you are genuinely interested in looking into these areas, just try out a few things. Someone will be along in a minute with ideas to start you off. See where it all gets you. Concentrate on the stuff that appeals to your imagination. You don't have to believe in anything you don't feel comfortable with, but a lot of magic involves making the limits of what you subjectively think is possible go a bit bendy and malleable. Start with small things, slowly try to expand the boundaries of your frame of reference in a way that is beneficial to you and the people you care about. If you feel like it, post your experiences here. So long as it doesn't dovetail into trolling, I think a few more sceptical voices in the magic forum would do it the world of good.
 
 
gravitybitch
14:15 / 12.03.04
There are a number of threads about how to start, how to know if magick works, how to know if magick is "real" - all with intelligent discussion that might interest Alex. I can post links sometime this weekend.

What I'd like to do is look at the disbelief... What makes it so hard to believe in magick? Especially in the context of except as something I've read about?

There are two ways of interpreting that statement that interest me (and maybe more). We can read about magick as something other people belive in (most posts in this forum, for example) and either believe or not believe on a personal level, or read about magick and have the belief (or not) that magick worked then - with those folks, in that time and cultural context - but that the same act wouldn't work today.

Why?
 
 
FinderWolf
14:22 / 12.03.04
Ask yourself: how different is "magic" from having a dream and doing things to make it come true in reality?

How different is "magic" from, say, hypnosis or repeating positive affirmations to yourself to change your habits/thought processes and seeing actual results come from it?

Think of it as a more indirect way of making things happen in your life. A way that doesn't leave out the practical steps towards making things happen that we all do on an everday basis.

Have you ever had something in your life happen that felt psychic or uncannily coincidental? Look at those events. What was the nature of the feeling that told you there was Something More going on?

Then do a sigil. Easy and a great way to experiment.
 
 
Phex: Dorset Doom
14:29 / 12.03.04
Okay, on the practical side just fire off a sigil for something easy and inconsequential. Try 'I will see a woman in a red dress', fact is, you probably see women in red dresses just about every day, but you'd be hard pressed to name a specific instance. Do the sigil and all the women in the world in red dresses will start crawling out of the woodwork. You won't have changed the world, you'll just start noticing things in it that you perhaps haven't noticed before.
 
 
LVX23
15:13 / 12.03.04
Alex wrote:
I don't believe in magic at all...Well, except as something I've read about anyway.

So, you know, a suggested experiment, with observable, quantifiable results, that might go some way to proving me wrong ? Bearing in mind that hard work and I are at best just acquiantances, the kind that don't often meet.


Lord knows there's no shortage of lazy materialists. At least you know you'll never feel out of place at parties. Now prove to me that you exist.

Magick really isn't about proof. It's about meaning. Sequencing the human genome to show how proteins are manufactured and used to express genes, that's proof. Walking around as a self-aware organism capable of laughter, art, love, & loss - that's magick.
 
 
LVX23
15:17 / 12.03.04
Heh, I just had to restrain myself from going over to the Head Shop and posting "I Don't Believe in Philosophy At All".
 
 
agvvv
15:29 / 12.03.04
Slightly more serious then my previous reply now.. Magick isnt necessarily about changing the world, only your perspective
 
 
Shanghai Quasar
15:48 / 12.03.04
What makes it so hard to believe in magick? Especially in the context of except as something I've read about?

When most people write about it or go up on stage to discuss it for an audience, the whole rap sounds like utter bollocks.

As to the base question (for Alex): you can't prove it and you probably never will. It's fundamentally no different from the question of whether or not everything leading up to this moment in time happened or is just an elaborate fantasy conjured up by God/aliens/Missouri Democrats/the Reptoid Queen. One has faith that their way of thinking about the world is the true way - even if that way happens to change all the time.

If magic enriches life and makes things better, that's really all the proof a believer needs.
 
 
EvskiG
17:06 / 12.03.04
(1) Do you believe that you can consciously change the way you perceive the world?

(2) Do you believe that you can consciously exert greater influence over the world -- and yourself -- than you have done to date?

(3) Do you believe that there could be methods of accomplishing (1) and (2) that you aren't familiar with, or haven't yet used?

If so, it's possible that we're just quibbling about semantics.
 
 
--
22:21 / 12.03.04
I dunno about it sounding silly when rapped to an audience... seeing Grant Morrison on that Disinfo.con DVD thing really inspired me, though his advice pretty much boiled down to "This shit works! Do it!" (repeated at least 500 times).
 
 
trixr4kids
00:17 / 13.03.04
what are the other options...cogdom/reality tv/sausage rolls/The Daily Mirror/..., it keeps things interesting/amusing...for me anyway
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
00:24 / 13.03.04
(repeated at least 500 times).

Invoke often.
 
 
Hathor
20:14 / 14.03.04
Your entire body is held together by a force of attraction between little objects called atoms...they build the elements that make the molecules and provide the ions that all came together to provide a system of energy production so you could walk around and gain and existance of tangibility. What does that have to do with magick?...
Well lets go science...Energy can neither be created nor destroyed or so its said...but it can be transmutated and projected or absorbed and put to use. Thats Magick! When the person realizes that they have the ability to effect changes through energy manipulation a whole new perspective is had. After all everything has energy...or potential..the newborn at the moment first breath is sucked into its wet lungs is the magick of converting the full potential to energy at work on its own.
There are systems that have been studied and used for aeons on how to control and affect the flow of energy to produce a prescribed outcome...ie the KBLH, Reiki, Sekhem, Chakra, crystal vibration, meditation, yoga, tantra, etc... I'd suggest becoming familiar with your own energy..becoming aware will lead you to control, then to manipulation, and so forth. Honestly the eastern teachings of karate as they apply to control of Chi and its use is a great discipline and springboard. Yoga is another great springboard as breath, motion, and body control. Just some more yummy sustinance to chew on.

Em Hotep until Dad gets pissed
Hathor
 
 
osymandus
21:08 / 14.03.04
"Honestly the eastern teachings of karate as they apply to control of Chi and its use is a great discipline and springboard. Yoga is another great springboard as breath, motion, and body control. Just some more yummy sustinance to chew on."


Ki is the that which is taught from Karate . Im not being perdantich its just there is a differnce between the teaching of KI and Chi (chi being the Chinese). KI as a rule is externalised where the teaching of Chi is more internal . As a rule (though Akido is an exception in Japanese MArtial arts).

Oh and one more thing violence is just another action, just like thinking or eating toast.
 
 
Hathor
00:21 / 16.03.04
Chi being chinese eh? So what is the difference between Ki and Chi...I suppose you have given me a new quest... I associate to Chi as I studied Kenpo Karate which is based on a Chinese system...however the Japanese do like to innovate everything so I shall look into Ki. Thanks for the 411.

Em Hotep till Dad gets pissed
Hathor
 
 
Hathor
00:25 / 16.03.04
Chi being chinese eh? So what is the difference between Ki and Chi...I suppose you have given me a new quest... I associate to Chi as I studied Kenpo Karate which is based on a Chinese system...however the Japanese do like to innovate everything so I shall look into Ki. Thanks for the 411.

Em Hotep till Dad gets pissed
Hathor

Violence is descriptive of destruction...which occurs every millisecond inside your body, but its all for the greater good...depending on whats being destroyed and the purpose for which the destruction takes place....but I suppose that IS splitting hairs.
 
  
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