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Property is theft!

 
  

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Spatula Clarke
19:25 / 12.03.04
I'm struggling here, toksik. Are you trying to compare MacDonald's losing custom because somebody let off a stink bomb to my argument about somebody copying material? If so, it's a bloody big stretch you're making. For one thing, the person resoponsible for the stink bomb doesn't end up gaining anything from the act. The purpose is not to own something as a result.
 
 
Smoothly
20:32 / 12.03.04
But is it such a big stretch? Why does it matter - from a moral perspective - whether the person gains from the act or not. If I nick something and immediately burn it, I'm closer to the stink-bomber, but I wouldn't have thought that ameliorated the crime. Maybe, in fact, it does the opposite. If starving and having no money (ie. needing the thing you're stealing) mitigates theft, don't the oppisite circumstances aggravate it? I mean, is it worse to just trash someone's car than to merely steal it for one's own use? But what does it matter to the victim of the theft, if the theif has gained from it? I dunno. But I think that's what toksik was on to.

40% - I doubt a replication machine would ever get developed. Where would the money come from? You're not going to sell more than one.
 
 
gingerbop
22:09 / 12.03.04
OK, if I may, I'll ask a question closer to my heart than downloading music.

You go into a shop where a friend works, and buy a pair of shoes. Said friend gives you an extra discount.
a) Is it theft? You've deprived the shop of their full mark-up.
b) If it is, who is theiving? You end up with the goods, but it was friend who mobilised the 'theft'.
 
 
40%
22:26 / 12.03.04
gingerbop - you're not feeling bad about it are you? Cos you shouldn't!

Smoothly - you're obviously very confused. Kindly step aside and let more sensible members of the board contribute.
 
 
w1rebaby
22:28 / 12.03.04
Stink-bombing McDonalds would be closer to copyright breach if you had your own burger van down the road, where people went because they couldn't get to McDonalds. Though not quite, because file-sharing copyright breachers don't make any money out of it. Those who download music and flog it at the local market do, but it's still not theft.

Look, copyright breach is not theft. It could be argued that it deprives a person of the right to make future profits, but there are many things that could do that. Libel. GBH. Stink bombs. Theft is the appropriation of a rivalrous resource, one that is limited in quantity (CDs) which is almost always going to be physical since digital media can be copied without affecting anyone else who owns a copy. Calling copyright breach "theft" is propaganda designed to further stigmatise the activity, and leads to painfully bad analogies that hurt my little head and make me want to hit things.

The social purpose of copyright law is to make sure that people are able to gain reward from creating something, thus encouraging creation of new works which is held to be A Good Thing. After a while, though, the "IP" becomes more and more part of the people who experience it, goes further into the public domain, and protection becomes a stranglehold on creativity. My personal view is that level and time of protection should be based on how derivative the duplication is (exact duplication bad, using the bass track not so bad, "being inspired by" not that bad at all) but that's obviously very difficult to legislate. It remains the case though that copyright breach is not and never will be theft.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
22:29 / 12.03.04
The shop would say it was theft (were it a speaking shop). It'd also say that the friend was the one doing the thieving, as you're a customer and it'd have to honour any mark-down, accidental or otherwise. 'Swhy some big stores say you're not allowed to serve people you know.
 
 
w1rebaby
22:31 / 12.03.04
If you get something for cheaper than it's supposed to be, I'd say that was closer to breach of contract than theft. If it's advertised at a certain price for a certain type of customer and you get it for less, it's not technically taking something that doesn't belong to you, but you're not fulfilling your end of the contract i.e. paying full price.
 
 
sleazenation
22:38 / 12.03.04
And if the point of P2P is sampling something to see if it's worth buying, as many people keep claiming, isn't streaming media much more fitting? The listener doesn't end up with a copy of it, so it's comparable with sleaze's "borrowing a book from a library" scenario.


Not trying to wreck the analogy too much, but there is software, such as wiretap that allows the user to record streaming media...

As a side issue it does seem that comics come off better in the free downloading debate becuase there are a number of benefits that analogue print comics have over their digital rivals - they can be taken into the bath and offer far better resolution as standard.
 
 
w1rebaby
22:39 / 12.03.04
True, but what about something like pay webcomics?
 
 
gingerbop
23:10 / 12.03.04
40%- absolutely not. House of Fraser took away my job, so I gave discounts to whoever the fuck I wanted. As long as they paid something for it, that's more than half of the people who left there with clothes did, and I never thought of it as theft. That was, until the department next to ours was investigated for this, and looked as if they might take a look at my records too. Phewph!
 
 
HCE
16:18 / 15.03.04
And another example: Jacqueline asked Gary (names not changed) to look something up for her on Nexus/Lexis. Gary, who is a law student, refused to do so since looking things up for other students was not part of how he's officially allowed to use the service.

There is no doubt in my mind that Gary was being a prick, but I'm not sure I can explain why. He would be in breach of contract, certainly. Should he have just refused to ever use the service even for himself, rather than accept the terms?
 
 
Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo
05:12 / 16.03.04
I don't think that P2P is legal...or ethical, and the "record companies make a lot of money" doesn't hold a lot of water with me. However, I CAN see where the record companies will have to change how they make money, now that the genie is out of the bottle, and no matter what they do, someone will find another way to do file sharing.

That being said, you really can't listen to the record companies when it comes to ANYTHING, since they spent a LOT of time in the mid 90's trying to stop the sale of used CDs. To the point of having Garth Brooks go on Jay Leno and cry that people who sold off their used CDs were taking food from his children's mouths...while they were telling independent record stores that if they sold used CDs, they would quit shipping them new ones.

Record Companies will have to go to a new model (getting money from advertising streams, live shows, etc...) since P2P isn't going to go away, but will only get more sophisticated.
 
 
Smoothly
07:20 / 16.03.04
So, we've established that P2P isn't theft, but that it is a breech of copyright - the ethics of which are shaky. We also know that theft is illegal. However, to return to Lurid's original question, is stealing stuff wrong? If so, what is it about it that makes it wrong? Is it wrong because it's illegal? Or do we have a fundamental, pre-legal right to property? Everyone comfortable with that?
 
 
Axel Lambert
08:17 / 16.03.04
But then P2P isn't any different from the older custom of copying LPs to cassettes, is it? Of course, the internet makes it much easier, with more music to choose from (or more "friends" to copy from, rather). But theoretically, had the cd not been invented, we could be sitting at home, downloading mp3s from our "friends'" LPs into our cassettes. And that would be less considered as theft, I think. Why? Because an LP is one thing (the "real" thing) and a cassette is clearly an entirely different thing. It looks like a copy. The reason I download rather than buy music, is that the real cds look like fucking copies! Cheap and ugly covers that break the first time you drop them on the floor, with a stupid booklet that's easy to copy too. The solution for the record industry seems obvious to me: produce nicer covers, that don't look to much as pirate copies.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
08:32 / 16.03.04
Deft, Smoothly, deft.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
08:33 / 16.03.04
I have a horrible feeling the term 'value added' is going to crop up any moment now.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
08:40 / 16.03.04
Copyright basics for interested parties.
 
 
Ex
09:07 / 16.03.04
Jacqueline asked Gary (names not changed) to look something up for her on Nexus/Lexis. Gary, who is a law student, refused to do so since looking things up for other students was not part of how he's officially allowed to use the service.

That's very close to home, for me. It's in the front garden peering through the nets.
I use the various electronic Humanities resources I've got access to through my University for anyone who'll give me chocolate. But that's because firstly, I think they're terribly underused resources (most students don't know about them, and I imagine our annual subscription rate is calculated by the numebr of students we have). And secondly, and mainly, because I feel that as many people as possible should have access to information. This is really unfair, and probably indefensible, because the nice people at the Modern Language Association are just doing a job and selling a product like anyone else.
There's also complicating factors; for example, today I'm using it to look up information on the sex lives of hobbits, which is a personal research project, unrelated to my teaching. But any insights I glean will probably feed back in and make me a better value-added teacher. Honest. Similarly, if I do a search for someone else, I'll probably get some snippet out of it which may help me teach.
Info and cash are in really odd interrelation in the UK Higher Education system at the moment, as well, with top-up fees being introduced. It's a minefield.

And the lady in Boots forgot to charge me for some Mach 3 turbo blades on Saturday. How many hail (hairy) Marys?
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
12:45 / 16.03.04
For a Mach 3?

Full scale flagellation is the order of the afternoon, methinks.
 
 
Lurid Archive
15:11 / 16.03.04
I'm not sure that a SM flogging really works as penance, you know.
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
11:37 / 17.03.04
You mean the Catholic church was wrong?!
 
 
Prego the Werlf
15:20 / 17.03.04
Never steal. Examine everything. Pay a fair price. Even if that price is nothing. Take a moment to reflect on the person or people involved, then do what you think is right. Or what you think is more fun. If you can't take something with smile on your face, then youve probably got it wrong. Also, taking to fulfill a need is surely not theft, but survival. A man connot live on mp3s alone. Stealing is wrong, like putting sugar in coffee is wrong. Forget the law, engage with people. Rock over london, rock on chicago.
 
 
40%
09:20 / 18.03.04
After a while, though, the "IP" becomes more and more part of the people who experience it, goes further into the public domain, and protection becomes a stranglehold on creativity

I'm not sure what you mean. Surely copyright, whatever else can be said about it, is likely to encourage creativity by preventing people from using other people's material, thereby forcing them to come up with their own.

I can't quite envisage a situation where being prevented from using a Beatles song due to copyright would restrict your creativity. I can see the argument that music that is part of the collective consciousness should be free for all to use, but how does this relate to creativity?
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
09:51 / 18.03.04
Round and round it goes...

It might pay to look at the three examples in terms of who's being deprived. If you pinch something from a local shop, you're basically lifting something from the storeholder's pocket, food from their table. If you defraud an insurance company, you're becoming part of a statistic which is factored into the cost of doing business, and it's hard to identify exactly who pays - everyone, probably, subsidises your new laptop to the tune of a few pence in the annual insurance payments they make. And in the case of P2P, there's often no loser, because some piece of music from 1947, the rights to which are lost in darkness, has just regained a lease on life. Or, of course, you're stealing from a record company which prints CDs for tuppence hapenny, and then sell them for twenty quid a shot.

Stealing in potential isn't stealing? Not such a great line. Does that mean that if I steal someone's wages before the cheque is written, that isn't really depriving them of anything because they never saw the money? Non.

Does copyright stifle or protect creativity? Both, of course. It seeks to encourage creativity by allowing someone to be identified as the author of a work (a notion many here have a problem with) and protects that author's right to ownership of what is original in that work (ditto, ditto) and so on. At the same time, it seeks to prevent passing off, devaluation, and infringement, and thus could be said to stifle works inspired by and building on that foundation, blah blah. There are separate arguments here:

1. is there a need to protect the right of a creative to make money from that process? Yes, given the world we live in and our desire for good, well-finished, actualised creative entertainments and technologies.

2. what is the moral or spiritual relationship between a person and their ideas? What rights, if any, does the having of an idea and the actualisation of it confer upon the creative worker? In copyright, just having an idea isn't enough to give you rights. You have to formulate it, and (roughly) the more involved and finished the formulation, the stronger the claim. A cigarette-pack sketch is one thing, a manuscript another. There's also nothing to protect you from someone having the same idea at the same time. I have suggested that the creative process is a matter of ideational exploration and self-generation, and that the creative product is an artefact of the creator's identity, hence the fierce possessiveness of many creatives regarding their work. It may not be a good idea for the law to seek to control this aspect of creativity in society, but if the law doesn't society itself and individual creatives must recognise some kind of boundary line between what is fair use and what is invasion. This inevitably brings on a rash of discussions about privilege and identity in problematised situations.

3. how practical is any copyright law? Some are point blank unenforceable, and there's a great deal of drift in one direction or another anyway. Corporate bodies such as the RIAA and the big pharmas keep trying to say that everything belongs to them forever, individuals and NGOs and less developed nations keeps saying it doesn't. Any answers to the questions of copyright and ownership of creativity must be practical - although it will also have to social.

As to "property is theft" - collective ownership, thus far, has always ultimately meant that something belongs to no one, rather than being held in common. Rather than each invididual having a stake, it seems to come down to the collective entity owning everything, with the consequence that everyone steals, and the collective chest is empty - see The Oceans, The Atmosphere.
 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
21:01 / 18.03.04
But then P2P isn't any different from the older custom of copying LPs to cassettes, is it?
Which, technically (and depending on where you are) is illegal, also.
 
 
HCE
21:42 / 18.03.04
today I'm using it to look up information on the sex lives of hobbits, which is a personal research project, unrelated to my teaching

When is somebody going to comment on this. I'm dying.
 
 
Cheap. Easy. Cruel.
18:02 / 31.03.04
A Canadian judge has ruled that file swappers cannot be sued. linky
 
 
w1rebaby
19:52 / 31.03.04
I'd not read this for ages.

I'm not sure what you mean. Surely copyright, whatever else can be said about it, is likely to encourage creativity by preventing people from using other people's material, thereby forcing them to come up with their own.

Well, that's one of the initial points of copyright, another being that making it easier to make money from an original creation gives more of an incentive to create.

On the other hand, after a while copyright becomes a disincentive to create, since it makes it possible to sit on your arse and still have the money coming in. That's not what I was trying to say though.

The point I was trying to make was that distributed works become part of the creative imaginations of those who have experienced them - call it influence if you like. The longer they are around and the more successful the more people will use components of them, that's what people do. By instituting controls on that process you are restricting what they are able to create. To take an example, is the character of Mickey Mouse really Disney's these days? I would say not; it has meaning and context that has spread throughout the world, it's part of a huge number of people's experiences, it's something that they may want to use.

There's also the point that some works, particularly those connected with advertising, are so heavily forced into public space that it's almost required that you be able to take them, modify them, talk about them as a kind of psychic self-defence. Otherwise you're in the position of being forced by the law to passively take in whatever the entity is. (I've got to go now but I might come back to this later.)
 
 
Supaglue
15:40 / 01.04.04
Aren't the boundaries of this thread blurring?

Just a few thoughts in no particular order (I'm raising my "I'm-a-bit-drunk-tonight" shield.):

From a legal standpoint: A judge may award compensation for loss in the future, but this would be in sentence and is not related to the charge itself. It is just in recognition that the victim has suffered knock-on harm and would not be what the defendant would be charged with.

Fraud (Jack the Bodiless on pg 1) is covered by 'obtaining by deception' and 'Making false declarations' isn't it?

Anyway, should P2P downloaders be classed as the thieves? Anyone who makes the material accessible initially probably are, but the downloaders are just handling stolen property, if indeed you would class it as stolen; and that is a different matter all together (If I buy some electrical equipment in a pub on the cheap, I'm not a thief. I may be perpetuating theft, but I am not committing it).

Its interesting that the law, which is supposed to reflect the general morality of a state doesn't always mirror the common sense view: Stealing food, for example. Most people would not deny a truly starving person the right to steal food for them and their family, yet necessity is not a true defence laew. Well, UK law, at least.

Its also of interest that a breach of copyright is not a criminal offence.


Moral standpoint: There must be something wrong with depriving the artist the reward of hir's endeavours when internet downloadable material is taken without any kind of royalty. But where is the line when it becomes the artist that rips off the audience (I dunno, er.. Robbie Williams is not going to miss a few million from internet downloads). I guess then that's not an issue of theft (it still is) but is a problem with the record companies ripping everybody off and deserving the theft.


Fridgemagnet: I 'spose art always draws inspiration from itself, Fridge, but not accessable form the net in the name of the person who created it without authorisation. From Looping samples to slash fiction, all of these take a cornerstone from another, but there is still a creativce process. Its not come and get this artists latest work without their knowledge.
 
 
not nervous
22:36 / 27.04.04
i was just wondering if anyone knew anything about the legality of downloading something which you already own in another format (vinyl for example)...?
 
  

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