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Deus ex: Invisible war

 
 
Wombat
22:07 / 09.03.04
The game play is reduced from the original.
The play area has to meet console standards.
The graphics are not state of the art.
The non-linerar plot....well at this stage of the game..seems to be leading edge.
This is a first time play of the game. Perhaps the plot may be as reduced as the experience system... It doesn`t feel like it. Within 10 minutes of starting I wanted to restart and see how things work out if I made a different choice.
It`s nowhere near the gaming equivalent of the invisibles...BUT it (shows it ) could done.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
22:11 / 09.03.04
Unfortunately a GEForce MX won't cut it... so have to get a new graphics card before I can play this game I've been waiting so long for.

The original Deus Ex is still my favourite PC game of all time.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
22:13 / 09.03.04
It`s nowhere near the gaming equivalent of the invisibles...BUT it (shows it ) could done.

Care to expand on that? I'm not sure I see where you're coming from.
 
 
---
01:28 / 10.03.04
Yeah i'm interested in that too. Invisibles game? Please Mr Spong relieve us from our misery............
 
 
LykeX
09:47 / 10.03.04
Do you know if anyone are planning a Mac version. The original Deus Ex came for mac, but I can't seem to find Invisible War.
 
 
Eloi Tsabaoth
10:59 / 10.03.04
Amen, Brother Stoatie. A-fucking-men.
 
 
nedrichards is confused
11:21 / 10.03.04
Don't think it's coming to mac yet. PC and Xbox only I suspect.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
11:37 / 10.03.04
I'd just like to point out that "the play area has to meet console standards" doesn't make a huge amount of sense when you're talking about a console that's pretty much the closest you can get to an under-the-telly PC. If it was on the GameCube or PS2, you'd have a point, but as it is... not really. Any deficiency in the "play area" is going to be due to game-led design decisions, not hardware-led ones.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
11:58 / 10.03.04
Yes and no... remember, the Xbox was top-quality PC standard 18 months to 2 years ago... fuck, even my PC was pretty good a year back. (Hence the need for new graphics card, etc.) That's why a lot of PC gamers found Halo such a disappointment- by the time it finally came out on (what was supposed to be its original platform, bitch bitch) the PC, things had moved on substantially.

And I'm not saying that's a good thing... I can't afford to keep upgrading my computer, any more than people can afford to replace their consoles or companies can be arsed to design new ones when the old ones still work fine. It's just the way it seems to be.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
12:37 / 10.03.04
I'm thinking more of what's theoretically possible within the game world itself, rather than the aesthetics of the thing. Yes, it'll jerk around a bit on the Xbox and won't have the resolution of the PC version, but - as far as I know - the important stuff in the game design won't have been affected because of differences in the hardware. The way the game plays won't have been sacrificed.

Put it this way: does Unreal Tournament 2004 offer you an experience over and above the original game, beyond tarted up graphics and sound?
 
 
fluid_state
16:40 / 10.03.04
Yeah, the possibilities in the first game are mind-boggling. Less so of the engine (which is still quite robust) than the scripting language tool. I recreated my home in UnrealEd, then started playing with the scripter, and barely left my room for three days. When I (reluctantly) left the apartment, I'd distilled my little life into that game for friends to abuse. If you shot the cat, my girlfriend would freak out and run away; if you ran into my roommate in the hallway, he'd give you a beer, unless you'd shot the cat, in which case he'd try to kill you. If you picked up the phone, you could order pizza, or subs, or booze. It was fantastic; if only there was a plot... anyway, Deus Ex would still be the best videogame hypersigil tool I know of.

That's what I'd be looking for in DX2, but frankly, the bad press has turned me off somewhat. Anyone know what engine it uses?

(Randy: UT2003 was the cosmetic upgrade (significant tech changes that didn't really change the gameplay experience, although it was, like, 50,000 times more gorgeous); UT2004 offers vehicles. Vehicles were the Holy Grail of my Unreal editing days)
 
 
Spatula Clarke
17:18 / 10.03.04
New, purpose-built engine, I think.

UT2004 was obviously a poor example, but you get what I mean - including vehicles would have been perfectly possible in the earlier games, purely in terms of hardware capabilities.
 
 
Wombat
20:16 / 10.03.04
First and foremost.
I apologise for not putting in an abstract.
Also for not puting this in the computer games thread.
It won`t happen again.

The small levels (as far as I`m aware) are due to the amount of memory required for a huge amount of detai. The greater the detail the more memory required. OK. I was wrong to say it was a console problem. Mid range pc would also require smaller levels.

Solid state- This is exactly what I meant when I said the potential for an invisibles style game is now there. Modded this game could be a serious head-fuck. I`d love to think the game equivalent of a P.K.Dick novel or illuminatus was just round the corner.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
21:38 / 10.03.04
Hey hey. Nobody's got anything against this having a thread of its own - if anything, it's probably better this way as there seems to be a fair bit to discuss.

Regarding the size of the levels, that was what I was trying to get at. The hard drive should prevent the developers from having to worry about level size. They can do a Halo and have near-seamless mid-level loading to enable massively open level design, or they can do the same as in the first title and have each sub-section load separately. But I'm getting hung up on something that's not all that important, so I'll shut up about it now.

It's the stuff about creating an Invisibles game that really interests me, because I still don't see it happening. I mean, if you wanted to create something that truly captured the essence of that series, it'd have to have strong narrative whilst also being completely free and open. Imo, nobody has come anywhere near to providing players with both of those things in a convincing manner - all attempts to do so see one or both aspects suffering serious compromise.

The problem is that the player will never be able to break out of the confines of the scriptwriters' decisions and into their own coherent narrative. And considering that's what's at the heart of PKD's writing, Invisibles, etc., it poses an enormous barrier to those ambitions. It's one of the things that infuriates me about comments like those in this thread - it all sounds very impressive, but it's

A) meaningless and
B) impossible.

If it's not impossible, we need people to start explaining how you implement it.
 
 
Wombat
22:07 / 10.03.04
A book, film, comic are linear narratives. The only choice is to continue being a passive participant or stop.
People have done incredible things within the constraints of a media.
This has yet to happen with a game.
(appart from text/interactive fiction)


A game has a lot more potential.
I have the communications skills of road-kill.
And the EQ of a 13 year old male.
Some books and films have changed the way I see things.
I`d like to see the same thing happen in games.
Discussion of greek meta and modern shamanism go right over my head.
So far a perception change from a game has not happened.
BUT the the deus ex series has shown me it IS possible.
 
 
The resistable rise of Reidcourchie
09:14 / 12.03.04
To the uninitiated (I don't in general play video games but the ads for this have piqued my interest) could somone tell me waht the games plot is? And I'm assuming it allows some degree of control over the design/plot elements of the game? Would someone mind briefly explaining this to a layman?
 
 
Spatula Clarke
10:45 / 12.03.04
SF conspiracy blah, in the main. The big thing about the first game was that it provided the player with choice - you can choose how to approach situations (so, the first mission has terrorists inside the Statue of Liberty, and you choose the sort of weaponary you use on them - tranq darts or guns for example) and you can make choices about how the plot procedes. There's one bit in particular where you can either stay on the side of the police group you're attached to or join up with the terrorists.

This choice thing is a bit of a red herring, to be honest. You're still playing out scripted events, just making your mind up about which scripted events you want to play.
 
 
Baz Auckland
15:53 / 12.03.04
(First Deus Ex spoiler)






My brother was so disappointed in the first one that you HAD to join the NSF that he quit and never played it again...
 
 
Spatula Clarke
16:02 / 12.03.04
There's a remarkably similar limit on the 'freedom' available in Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic too, another game which is generally lauded for it's supposed lack of restrictions.
 
 
The Strobe
17:33 / 12.03.04
A book, film, comic are linear narratives.

Not true in so many ways. What do you mean by this? Could you give us examples of what you deem non-linear art?

The only choice is to continue being a passive participant or stop.

Stop partaking/reading/viewing, yes? Well, the thing with art is that in general you actively engage with it. I can't passively read a book - it doesn't just seep in; I have to make the effort to move my eyes to read it. The "reader" always has to make an effort, so in that way, they're always active.

If you're complaining that you can't get sucked into the world of the artwork... then I'd guess your imagination might be lacking somewhat. And if you're complaining that you want that to happen for reals, you might want to take a deep breath and start living in the real world.

I think part of the problem is that in general, apart from in the hobby-world of Interactive Fiction (which has a ton of fantastic games kicking around for free), plots are not lavished the attention they deserve. Videogames have yet to lift themselves out from B-movie status; those that do are critical successes and commercial failures, almost without fail. Videogaming has probably the most non-critical audience of any media; I mean, we're talking about a medium where dross such as Enter the Matrix, the long string of early EA James Bond titles and the Harry Potter games are huge successes. They are B-movie in plots and in their ambitions: big names/licenses, flashy (ish) graphics (though EtM and HP had pretty poor visuals, they survived on the back of the license) and huge marketing budgets.

If you think the pop and movie industries are cynical, you should probably try attending a marketing meeting at EA. I know I keep using them as an example, but they're a behemoth that absorbs brands and franchises and spits them out, once a year, to a gullible public. To some people, EA is all they know of gaming, and that's quite sad. I am currently dreading seeing what EA will do with its recently acquired Godfather license. I shit you not. Godfather 2005, here we come...

About the most open ended thing I ever played was Fallout, which has a wonderfully coherent world and doesn't necessarily punish you for your actions; it just makes things difficult. Trying to get people to trust you when you're renowned as a child-killer is tricky. Trying to see it through to the end as non-violently as possible is trickier.

(Incidentally, I've recently been trying to play through Enter the Matrix and it is much like hammering nails through one's dick, so to speak, only substantially less pleasurable).
 
 
Wombat
19:51 / 12.03.04
By linear narrative I meant that I can`t change the plot in a book or film. I can`t change a painting. Perhaps with reading things are a little different since the entire world is created in my head. But when the hero goes to the old well at midnight carrying chains I can`t prevent him going unless I put the book down or stop the film and create the plot from there.

As for open ended. What I had was something like the gameworld and non-linearity of morrowind.The player is free to do anything they feel like. They can ignore the narritive and just live in the world. Perhaps buying a farm and growing crops to sell to the economic model.

A havoc-like physics engine and the area design of invisible war. Each area has multiple ways of moving through it. Stacking boxes , hacking computers, bribing guards etc... Any combination of tools, skills should get the player through an area with various levels of difficulty.

A faction system similar to the fallout series. Also instead of the factions being passive they attack each other/infiltrate/steal/form alliances etc...based on a very simple economic AI. Events in the world are happening even while the player is sat in their farm reading a newspaper. It is up to the player whether to participate or not.

The narrative elements are provided by the competing goals of the factions. The storyline is emergant from their behavior. If the player foils the plot of faction B then his standing goes up with faction A. The game storyline still progresses but now on a different track.

OK. The game will never be written. But we are heading in it`s general direction. My holy grail would be for this to be produced as an engine rather than as a game...then hand it to the interactive fiction writers.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
20:48 / 12.03.04
By linear narrative I meant that I can`t change the plot in a book or film.

But, as I said earlier, you can't change the plot of a game either. You can shift to a different view of the plot, but it's still part of the same plot. It's still all been written out beforehand and your actions aren't having any real effect on it. You leave no footprints of your own, you just follow in those of the scriptwriters.

Morrowind is open-ended, yes, but abandon the narrative and it's dull (it's arguably dull following the narrative, but still...). You can't create a new narrative, or at least not one that's compelling.

The faction stuff has been used in previous titles, notably Arcanum (by the same people as Fallout, oddly enough). Unlike KotOR and Deus Ex, you can actually switch allegiances. Again, though, you're on a path defined by the scriptwriters.

Yes, the interactive fiction people need to be brought onboard. I do wonder, though, just how much their ambitions would be stunted by the available tech. We all remember Grant Morrison extolling the virtues of the video game and telling us how they represent the (or a) future of fictional narrative. What's he doing now? helping out on a Battlestar Galactica game.
 
 
The Strobe
20:51 / 12.03.04
Which is, according to all reviews, terrible. He was just doing some scripting stuff.
 
 
Malio
11:09 / 15.05.04
And now he's working on The Predator.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
11:13 / 15.05.04
Sounds revolutionary. 2012! 2012!
 
  
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