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Gender-specific magick

 
 
Cat Chant
08:05 / 08.03.04
Elsewhere on the interwebnet, I've got involved in a discussion about gender-specific magical rituals/workings and I was wondering whether anyone here had any theories or experience about this area. Does it jeopardise the success of a ritual/working traditionally carried out by women (or by men) if someone of the other sex performs it? What about trans or intersex magicians? How common is it to use a magical paradigm or system that differentiates between 'male' and 'female' and how exactly do such magical symbolic systems of sex/gender relate to the myriad sexes/genders of human practitioners?

I did a search but couldn't find anything in this forum. If anyone could point me in the right direction I'd be grateful.
 
 
illmatic
14:07 / 08.03.04
Hi Deva


I think magick is an interesting area within which to examine this subject, because the occult contains a lot of unexamined assumptions and traditional baggage about gender. Older occult texts frequently expresses homophobic or very traditional “essentialist” notions about men and women. You can certainly find texts and spaces where these notions are contested by modern occultists, but unfortunately, you can also find lots of people regurgitating the same old crap.

How common is it to use a magical paradigm or system that differentiates between 'male' and 'female' and how exactly do such magical symbolic systems of sex/gender relate to the myriad sexes/genders of human practitioners?

God I find this complex to think about and answer. I think you find a lot of male and female “archetypal” symbolism in magickal systems. However, it’s meaning doesn’t always refer to gender polarites but might be a symbol to talk about other things. In Tantra for instance, a couple in sexual union symbolises consciousness (Shiva) in union with his environment (Shakti). You find this in Crowley’s system as well as union of Nuit and Hadit. This might sound like I’m apologising for these concepts and saying “it’s only symbolism” which isn’t what I want to do. As a (relatively) straight man, I find the equation of sexual union to consciousness/environment really powerful and moving, though I can certainly see that someone else might see them as “heetrosexualist” (that’s an ugly piece of jargon if ever there was one) ie. it does relate to my gender but that’s a matter of choice and finding symbols that appeal to me, and if someone not-straight chooses to reject my choices and comes up with something more powerful for them, then great. Magick is ultimately a subjective and creative art after all. Perhaps this is something we’ll see with the emergence of queer positive magickal spaces and subcultures. Any comments from gay/bi/trans magicians out there?

Interestingly enough, a lot of magickal material uses male and female as a way of talking about duality or polarity, self and other etc, - but focuses on the moment where dualism collapses. Austin Spare talks about the “neither/neither” state (not this, not that) as the quintessence of his system and uses the hermaphrodite as a symbol for it. I’ll try and dig out the quote tomorrow, and have a pop at your other questions.
 
 
gravitybitch
14:22 / 08.03.04
Christopher Penczak gave a marvelous presentation at the recent Pantheacon that dealt with "queer magick" (and has written Gay Witchcraft: Empowering the Tribe) and one of the things he talked about was gender roles.

His basic premise is that since we all have both "male" and "female" energies within us, anybody can perform roles traditionally assigned to a specific gender even if that body doesn't conform to that role. He's participated in circles in which the High Priest and High Priestess were paired straight men, or paired straight women...

My take on it is that there is energy; we create polarity to provide tension to make magick. There is night and day, of course, but there is also twilight, which tends to get ignored precisely because people get caught up in polarities. Various cultures have assigned different qualities to male and female aspects, and some acknowledge the twilight areas between male and female - it was quite common for Native American tribes to have queer shaman/seers/healers and most tribes had a vocabulary to talk about that role in particular.

If you can, thumb through Penczak's book - I haven't looked for it in my local bookstore, but it should be around.
 
 
Bill Posters
14:32 / 08.03.04
as far as i know, the 'are we essentialists about this or not?' debate is an ongoing one in magick. I know two m2f trans mages, and neither has offered much on this issue, tho' I've never questioned them specifically about it. If you Google Susan Greenwood, you'll find she's an anthropologist (and also witch) who has covered this in a book and a coupla essays. In magickal terms, i guess it comes down to whether you think males have more male 'energy' and females more female energy, or whether one has both energies in equal measure or whether you think the very idea of gendered energy is a daft one. A while back Truckle started this thread here - some of the replies are rather excellent IMHO and may help your enquiry.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
14:45 / 08.03.04
I worked exclusively with an all female circle of witches for about three years and the one time we had a male observer it was far more difficult to work properly but I rather think that it was to do with discomfort from the other women rather than anything else. In retrospect although it was never named I took on the role of High Priest during every working we ever performed and it was absolutely unconscious.

How common is it to use a magical paradigm or system that differentiates between 'male' and 'female' and how exactly do such magical symbolic systems of sex/gender relate to the myriad sexes/genders of human practitioners?

Am I wrong in thinking that every tradition that includes men and women differentiates gender roles distinctly? In my experience that's certainly the case but I've group-worked ritualistically almost entirely within Western witchcraft and only stepped outside when working on my own.

I couldn't imagine taking on a patron god but then my rejection of organised religion existed primarily on the basis that I wouldn't give myself to a religious system that took men over women. I just happened to fall in with a female deity.
 
 
Bard: One-Man Humaton Hoedown
16:59 / 08.03.04
Well, in Norse magic the role of the magician was defined as "female", but it was not uncommon for men (typically gay, transsexual, or just really effiminate men) to take up the practice. However, since magic was not of the "warrior", much of the ritual practices, as I understand them, were thus, when performed by men, performed in a way that symbollicaly at least had the caster be female.

From what I further understand of Norse magic, there were very few actual styles that were male in nature (once again going back to the idea of magic being "women's work"). IIRC, the only reason Odin didn't take a lot of flak over being the grand magician was becuase he was king of the Aesir, and would smack down anyone that annoyed him.

However, I have a friend (though he IS gay, so I suppose it fits with the cultural paradigm) who is a practicing Asatru, and has had decent success with his magic.

At the same time, however, I do agree with previous posters that we all have our male and female sides. While there are certain things that men can do that women cannot (an erection, for instance), and things that women can do that men cannot (give birth, for instance), these are physical aspects. And physical aspects can be transcended by spiritual ones, ergo meaning that if performed properly I think that most traditional "gender-based" magics can be performed by the opposite sex in one way or another.
 
 
Z. deScathach
06:03 / 09.03.04
I would have to agree with Bard on this. There are behavioral differences beteen males and females, but these are only noticable in evaluations of large populations. Take any individual, and you will see wide variations from the "norm", (shit, I hate that word......). The problem starts arising when for the sake of order, these traits are enforced. I once saw a very respected High Priest state catagorically that while it was perfectly OK for transexual mages to perform in a circle, they should perform as their birth sex. Personally I can't imagine anything more strange. Magick is at it's most powerful when it connects with the deep mind. Having someone behave in a way that they cannot in any way relate to IMO can't help the effectiveness of magickal practice, (unless of course they are behaving in that way to loosen ego structures.....in such a case, the person is doing it voluntarily in order to achieve a "desired effect", i.e., the loosening of said structures). It essentially reduces the ritual into a type of play-actng, where some of the parties are not really participating at all. Not only that, it insults such persons by telling them that they are deluded, that they are not what they percieve themselves to be. To me, such restrictions say more about the belief structures of the one laying them down than any "magickal correctness". I suppose that I was attracted to choas magick for that reason, after being into Wicca for quite a few years. The sometimes rigid gender roles became annoying. There is a lot of progress being made on these fronts, but to me, magickal practice is about freedom. It should expand the freedoms of those practicing it, rather than restrict them. There are plenty of religions just chomping at the bit to lay down restrictions.
 
 
trouser the trouserian
08:54 / 09.03.04
Deva

Very interesting question, particularly for me as the relationship between sexuality, gender & occult beliefs has been much in my mind over the last few years. It's a big issue, particularly for magical folk who don't identify as heterosexual, or have been marginalised/excluded from magical groups because they don't 'fit' in with the 'recieved' wisdom concerning sexuality & gender roles. For this (and other reasons) I do not subscribe to the 'polarity' model - the idea that we have within us "male" and "female" energies. Indeed, I often find that when advocates of polarity start banging on about gendered "energies" they start talking in terms of characteristics associated with cultural notions of masculinity & femininity - which are assumed to be universal (and 'spiritual') constants.

I read Judith Butler's Gender Trouble a couple of years ago, and was quite taken with her concept of gender as performance rather than a universal essence. It's been my experience that occult beliefs such as the 'polarity' idea don't cope well with people who don't 'fit' into binary categories - such as individuals undergoing gender transition, or lesbians who identify as being masculine.

I'd echo Bill's recommendation to have a look at Susan Greenwood's work (admittedly, I'm biased 'cos she's a friend) - her book Magic, Witchcraft and the Otherworld: An Anthroplogy (review here) looks at some occult theories of gender and analyses how they serve to reflect and reinforce hegemonic discourses of gender.

Of course, the assumed universalism of gender roles that one encounters in contemporary western occult systems starts to crumble when one looks at other cultures -something I've been doing on and off. For example, I've been reading some fascinating research by Shivananda Khan (founder of Shakti) about how Indian gender identities are culturally constructed - for instance, a man does not achieve 'complete' manhood until he has married. Khan famously quipped "There are no heterosexuals in India, just married men, and men who will get married."

Bard:
Well, in Norse magic the role of the magician was defined as "female", but it was not uncommon for men (typically gay, transsexual, or just really effiminate men) to take up the practice. However, since magic was not of the "warrior", much of the ritual practices, as I understand them, were thus, when performed by men, performed in a way that symbollicaly at least had the caster be female.

Where does that viewpoint come from? As I understand it, seiðr was problematic - witness for instance the 'flyting' exchange between Loki & Óðinn in the Lokasenna where the former accuses Óðinn: But thou, say they, on Sáms Isle once beat like a Volva: in vitki's shape through the worlds didst fare: in woman's wise, I ween".

Some gay 'revisionists' such as Randy O'Connor have made the argument that seiðr was practiced by 'ergi' ('effeminate') males. But I'm not sure that all forms of norse magic - such as galdr and Útiseta would be classed as "female".
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
10:05 / 09.03.04
There are various queer pagan groups around, who might be useful/interesting to talk to. Hell, there are probably members here....

There's an lj for an american group here.

I'd also recommend getting in touch with the UK queer pagan lot, if you haven't already. Someone round here will probably be able to help you with that. (can't find contact stuff, think there's a yahoogroups thing)

I don't know 'em myself, but have met a bunch of them once or twice through friends and they're generally very interesting on the 'too queer to be pagan, too pagan to be queer' point...

Oh, and they throw great parties
 
 
illmatic
10:14 / 09.03.04
The whole idea of energy has been questioned here before. I’m quite open to the idea that there may well be an unspecified “energy” present in the body but this debate is a good example of how this concept can function as a shorthand for discussing quite complex realities.

Timely thread this actually, as I’ve been trying to get my head round some gender/transgender issues. Just borrowed Bornstein’s “Gender Workbook” off of Bengali in Platforms.

Does it jeopardise the success of a ritual/working traditionally carried out by women (or by men) if someone of the other sex performs it?

The first thing I thought of when I read this was Coil’s record “How to destroy angels”, which is a 12” that came out in the 80s, specifically composed for the “evocation of male sexual energy”. It drew on the symbolism of the qabalistic sphere Geburah, expressed through lengths in elements of the composition, the sound used etc. - and was specifically composed for the “evocation of male sexual energy” in ritual circumstances. On first consideration, one would assume that this record was solely aimed at men. However I really can see no problem with a female magician choosing to use this if she was happy to use such a loaded and cultural specific term as representative of her desires/intentions/aspirations. Okay, this might not be a “traditional” ritual – on that note, there’ve been several discussions round here about the use of traditional rituals/ pantheons etc and to what degree this functions as culturally appropriation etc. – the nearest we got to consensus was that the important thing in that such matters should be approached with respect. Part of what you have to worry about isn’t so much whether the magick will “work” or not, but rather how you negotiate with someone else’s culture. I can’t help but think of the shitstorm raised about the ordination of female priest in the Anglican clergy.

I think Absence of Gravitas is right that once we look beyond our own culture, simple divisions such as “male and female energies” fall apart a bit (a lot). Occult ideas often reflect the prejudices of the dominant culture dressed up as spiritual truths. Here are a load of occultists being
homophobic arseholes
for instance. Other cultures seem to evolve their own ways of dealing with alternative sexualities, don’t know how aware you are aware of research in that area, but just as current anthropology feeds into the practices of Western occultists, so will research on gender etc. in these areas.

Was just about to put in a mention of QPC but BiP beat me to it!
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
10:49 / 09.03.04
Occult ideas often reflect the prejudices of the dominant culture dressed up as spiritual truths.

while not knowing much about occult practices, this seems pretty likely to me, given that they're always going to be interpreted/filtered through the culture/concerns of the users (mind you, this is somewhat teaching Deva to suck eggs, but what the hell).

eg, a very simple personal example is that my images of various entities, from being told stories from the Gita/Mahabarat as a kid etc are often very different to the ones that adult Western magicians will give. (yes, i'm still obsessed with the Kali book!)

Perhaps it's not a dissimilar situation from, for example, feminist adoptions/re-readings of Freud?
 
 
trouser the trouserian
11:12 / 09.03.04
iszabelle

I've read Penczak's book and was somewhat underwhelmed. Throughout it, he uses the L/B/G/T acroynm as though lesbian, bisexual, gay & transgendered-identified people are one homogenous group, which struck me as an overly simplistic perspective. And he takes very much the same approach with history:

Evidence exists that ancient cultures honored queer people, gays, lesbians and transgendered folk as sacred, believing that they embodied a balance of male and female energies.
(quoted from Queer Magic: Coming Out as Initiation by Christopher Penczak.

Not all ancient cultures "honored" queer people equally (if at all), and assuming that other cultures even recognised the (Western) categories of "gays, lesbians and transgendered folk" is of itself, problematic. Throughout the book, Penczak refers to "the ancient peoples" as though they were 'just like us' - admittedly a common approach taken by populist occult authors, but much too simplistic for my taste.
 
 
trouser the trouserian
12:59 / 09.03.04
Just read on the QPC e-group that there is apparently a Spectrum LGBTQ Spirituality Day in Brighton on the 27th of June. One for the Brighton barbeloids & friends?
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
13:11 / 09.03.04
wow. I should think so. shout if you're likely to come down for it.

(spectrum are a great org, do all sorts of lgbtq networking/collective work across loads of areas)

Deva? excuse to come to bton, like you need one...
 
 
gravitybitch
14:49 / 09.03.04
absence of gravitas:

I'm sorry to hear that Penczak's book was too "pop," but I'm not that surprised. The presentation he gave was a little on the warm&fuzzy side and pretty glossy rather than detailed, but I had subconsciously attributed all that to the limitations of a 90 minute block of time, an audience of very mixed experience and background, and the general feeling of preaching to the choir that all of Pantheacon had.

I agree that there are huge problems with lumping all gays, lesbians, bisexuals, and transfolk together (though I tend to do so with the umbrella term queer myself!), and referencing "the ancient peoples" is inexcusable.

[grfff. Everything else I've written sounds horrid and incoherent. must stop posting before coffee...]
 
 
trouser the trouserian
15:09 / 09.03.04
iszabelle
What really stunned me was his presentation of mainstream Wicca as welcoming everyone, regardless of sexuality/gender identification. That certainly wasn't my experience of Wicca - nor that of the majority of my queer kin, both in the UK and the folk I've corresponded with in the States. Granted, the situation is changing, but there's still a long way to go.
 
 
gravitybitch
00:32 / 10.03.04
That's not even the rule in San Francisco, unfortunately... (although my experience probably wouldn't be the norm 'most anywhere else in the country - feeling like I needed to be discreet about the fact that I sleep with men in the women's circle I joined).

It is getting better, and he may have been speaking from his own personal experience (and then expanding that to a blanket case). In person, he's a very sweet young slip of a thing, and not likely to be threatening to anybody....
 
 
Perfect Tommy
05:37 / 10.03.04
I could have sworn that Phil Hine's site had something on homosexuality and tantra, but I didn't see it up on a cursory glance. (There's something on Magick and Structuralism, though.) Might be worth entering a few search terms and seeing what pops up.
 
 
illmatic
07:26 / 10.03.04
I think you're thinking of this essay, Tommy: Sodomy and Sprituality.

To quote:

Here I might as well discuss the magical concept of 'polarity', which in it's most simplistic form is the much-quoted idea of God and Goddess within the self. The problem of 'polarity' is when divinity is confused with conditioning and what is supposed to be 'masculine' and 'feminine' qualities. Thus we are told over and over again that fire is masculine and water is feminine; that the capacity to display emotions and be intuitive are feminine and that intellectual analysis is masculine. Says who? Feminist critiques of conditioning make the point that we only know what masculinity and femininity are because they have been defined in specific ways. Working beyond these limitations is surely a primary task in the developmental process. So much of what passes for 'occult laws' is just a 'spiritualised' justification of social conditioning and prejudice. For Gay men, polarity needn't be as simplistic as one partner assuming a feminine role - you can acknowledge the feminine and still give your penis to another man. You can celebrate the masculine elements of psyche and still receive another man's cock into yourself. Goddesses and Gods are not subject to the same restrictions as humans - after all, what would be the point if they were? Imposing our own narrow limits upon them is to miss the point of the whole exercise of invoking them. I invoke upon myself to go beyond my present limitations - to join momentarily with something greater, or outside my ego. Sometimes my lover becomes to me a God, or a Goddess - or is that too freaky for you?

Hope that's of some help.
 
 
trouser the trouserian
08:39 / 11.03.04
How common is it to use a magical paradigm or system that differentiates between 'male' and 'female' and how exactly do such magical symbolic systems of sex/gender relate to the myriad sexes/genders of human practitioners?

Coming back to one of Deva's original questions, I've been looking through my research notes on magical theories of sexuality/gender & some of my early observations were as follows:

The concept of Polarity (i.e. male-female energies) is very popular, particularly within Wiccan/Pagan communities. Polarity is held to be an essence and is sometimes universalised rather than being located within a particular cultural context. The rather rigid conflations of sexuality & gender that one finds in early Wiccan writings may well have been an influence from Gerald Gardner, i.e.:

"Man and man or woman and woman should never attempt these practices together, and may all the curses of the Mighty Ones be on any who make such an attempt."
and
"...a Priestess may impersonate either the God or the Goddess, but a male Priest may only impersonate the God."

Some Wiccan writers say that this 'polarity' is metaphysical - that it is simplistic to equate sexual identity or behaviour with 'spiritual energies.' The Polarity model tends to get explained in terms of Yin/Yang, Shiva-Shakti or Jung's concept of anima/animus. There is an ongoing debate within Wiccan communities about how non-heterosexual individuals can be accomodated within the Polarity model and it tends to be framed in terms of how, for example, gays or lesbians express 'male' & 'female' energies. Here's a quote from Starhawk:

The polarity of the Female and Male principles should not be taken as a general pattern for individual female and human beings. We each contain both principles; we are female and male both.

Although the idea that individuals 'contain' both 'male' and 'female' energies can be seen as a progressive step (as opposed to the idea that one contains either one or the other) it can still be deployed in a manner that, while on the surface appears to allow for diversities of sexualities/genders, can still maintain the heterosexual dominant.

Some queer pagans have embraced the notion of a Third Gender drawing on Native American "Two-Spirit" traditions, and some members of the pan-Indian Gay & Lesbian Vaisnava Association have similarly argued for the re-examination of "third gender" in Ancient India
 
 
illmatic
13:01 / 11.03.04
Deva - Any comments on all of this?
 
 
trouser the trouserian
07:04 / 12.03.04
Here's a quote from Susan Greenwood (in her summing-up of her chapter looking at magic & gender issues):

"The area of gender relations and sexuality has been shaped by the occult frameworks of Aleister Crowley's 'will model' which claims magical autonomy for men and women but is based on a masculine notion of the will, and to a greater extent, Dion Fortune's 'sexual harmony model' which seeks a Jungian complementarity between femininity and masculinity. The introduction of feminism into the subculture has challenged the certainties of gender polarity by opening up an arena for sexual experimentation in relation to magical spirituality; it has also set a stand against what are seen as patriachal social structures. By contrast, neither high magic nor wicca directly challenge social or political issues, and they thus largely support the gender status quo of female subordination in the ordinary world. In wicca in particular, women's power and legitimate authority is given by men. ...I showed how Gerald Gardner had written that the high priestess ruled because the God gives her the power ([1958]1988:31). As Elizabeth Puttick notes, this seems to undermine the basis of female power by defining its conditions as social and as a 'precarious authority granted by men, which can therefore be abrogated by men.'

She goes on to say that "only feminist witchcraft offers a practical political model for women's empowerment in the socio-economic world - a vision of transformation of this-worldly reality."
 
 
Cat Chant
08:24 / 14.03.04
Deva - Any comments on all of this?

I'm thinking. I want to check with one of the people I'm talking to elsewhere whether it's okay to quote her, because she has a very different (very ontological - people are men or they are women) take on all this and I'd like to see how that works here. I suspect that she's working in a traditional Wiccan/English-pagan framework, which would make a difference...

Oh, one of the things that I'm intrigued/confused by is something you get at here:

Some Wiccan writers say that this 'polarity' is metaphysical - that it is simplistic to equate sexual identity or behaviour with 'spiritual energies.'

If we all contain both male and female energies, regardless of our anatomical sex or our experienced/identified gender, then why is it still useful to call the energies 'male' and 'female'? (This is similar to Judith Butler's critique of Lacanian psychoanalysis, and of feminist claims that the positions of 'mother' and 'father' can be filled by persons of either sex/gender: in that case, why is the structure still gendered?)

I mean, I know these are huge and irresolvable questions that go way beyond magickal contexts, but I guess one of the reasons I think magick is an interesting site to address them on is because of the gap between the theoretical level, which sort of assumes a purified 'essence' of maleness and femaleness, and the level of the practitioners, where everyone will be muddling on in their usual mixed-up, impurely gendered, way. Obviously different traditions and different individuals negotiate that conceptual incommensurability differently - some by insisting that the 'essential' nature of maleness and femaleness corresponds to the genitalia of the people involved, some, it seems, by insisting that it corresponds to their 'deep mind'.

Hmmm. Obviously I need to think about this some more. Really, really, really interesting.
 
 
Z. deScathach
10:07 / 14.03.04
Deva: If we all contain both male and female energies, regardless of our anatomical sex or our experienced/identified gender, then why is it still useful to call the energies 'male' and 'female'?

A good point. That was something I never could get my mind around either. Why not just term them as active and passive? When the magickal gender-oriented correspondences are examined, it's clear that active and passive are what is being referred to. One has to ask oneself what is the REASONING behind it. Could it not be the desire to structure and reinforce a social hierarchy?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
10:31 / 14.03.04
My personal approach is to treat the terms "male" and "female" as arbitrary lables for sets of concepts. Sure, the lables may have seemed less abitrary once upon a time, but right now they're just a convention, like using j to represent the square root of minus one. You might as well call the sets, I dunno "Pine-fresh sparkle" and "Round the corner" for all the relevance they have to the experience of actually being male or female. (Whatever that means.)

Put simply: I'm happy enough, in the context of a magickal setting, to characterize certain traits as female, but try and tell me that I am defined by those "female" traits and see what happens. I am not a "void" or a "vessel"; I am not a sacred mystery, I definately do not experience the world purey through my emotions, and I get very very cross with people who try to tell me I am, or should be, any of these things.

Mind you, that approach has got me flamed off the face of the planet elsewhere. Apparently it's an attack on certain people's deeply held beliefs.
 
 
trouser the trouserian
07:04 / 15.03.04
Deva
...why is it still useful to call the energies 'male' and 'female'?

Good question, Deva. Personally, I'd say it isn't (but then I don't hold with this notion of 'energies' in the first place). As I've already said, Jungian ideas have been a big influence on modern Wicca and one could argue that this notion of gendered spiritual essence is related to Jung's concept of anima/animus. Certainly the idea crops up in Dion Fortune's writing and that of the contemporary Wiccan author Vivianne Crowley (she's a Jungian psychotherapist, unsuprisingly). I tend to find that the whole notion of gendered energies gets treated as a universally-accepted 'given' and is rarely challenged as a concept in itself. It's almost like its a 'core principle' of the belief-system, and some Wiccans I've talked to have been genuinely taken aback when I've took them up on the problems of this belief - like it's something they've never thought to question. I've even met gay & lesbian Wiccans who think of themselves in terms of expressing different degrees of 'male' & 'female' energies. A related idea is that "well, so and so is gay because they're a female soul in a male body" or even (and I'm not making this up!) "You're a lesbian because you were a man in a previous life". It's almost like a kind of biological determinism. And within this weird little bubble, where Jung gets the quoted all the time but Lacan "Who?", "Judith Butler? Don't you mean E.M. Butler?", some Wiccans have managed to get to grips with the idea that there are Gay & Lesbian people, but bisexuals, or say, SM dykes who like topping gay men - that's too much for them.
 
 
Cat Chant
08:46 / 15.03.04
You might as well call the sets, I dunno "Pine-fresh sparkle" and "Round the corner" for all the relevance they have to the experience of actually being male or female.

Deeply overjoyed at the idea of the eternal duality of Pine-fresh sparkle and Round the corner. Thank you.

But... isn't naming in itself an important process/principle for magic? Aren't correspondences between names, sounds, appearances, etc, important on a magickal level (or am I just misremembering bad fantasy novels, because that's a very real possibility here)? A sigil, say, works because it's charged with meaning on a linguistic level. So... does the magickal system of relation between name and thing (sign and referent) not have to be considered in relation to the idea that 'male' and 'female' are just conventional names for arbitrary sets?
 
 
trouser the trouserian
10:32 / 15.03.04
Deva
Aren't correspondences between names, sounds, appearances, etc, important on a magickal level?

This notion has its roots really in the Doctrine of Signatures originally applied to plant medicine and made 'trendy' by people like Paracelsus or Cornelius Agrippa during the Renaissance. Interestingly enough, the concept of 'magical correspondences' got a big boost in the 19th century, when the Victorians were busy categorising and mapping their world and describing sexual 'perversions' in minute detail. Purely in the interests of 'science', natch. For a long time, the Correspondences were thought to have an 'essential' quality. Here's Dion Fortune:

That little-understood and much-maligned art has for its philosophical basis the System of Correspondences represented by symbols. The correspondences between the soul of man and the universe are not arbitrary, but arise out of developmental identities. Certain aspects of consciousness were developed in response to certain phases of evolution, and therefore embody the same principles; consequently they react to the same influences.

and

It may be thought that the association of the symbolic beasts with the gods and goddesses in the old myths is entirely arbitrary and the fruit of the poetic imagination, which, like the wind, bloweth where it listeth. To this the occultist answers that the poetic imagination is not an arbitrary thing and refers the sceptic to the works of Dr Jung of Zurich, the famous psychiatrist...
(The Mystical Qabalah)

The Doctrine of Correspondences didn't really start to get challenged until the late 1970s when Chaos Magic came along and said "don't follow correspondences blindly, create your own chains of association."

As you say, Naming is quite an important idea in modern magic - often expressed as the notion that once you have the correct name of something, then you have the power to control it. As Agrippa puts it:

Moreover that in diverse sacred words and names of God, there is great and Divine power, which worketh miracles, Zoroastes [Zoroaster], Orpheus, Iamblicus, Synesius. Alchindus, and all the famous Philosophers testifie; and Artephius both a Magician and Philosopher, hath written a peculiar book concerning the vertue of words and Characters.
and
but let us not think, that by naming Jesus prophanely [profanely], as the name of a certain man, we can do miracles by vertue of it: but we must invocate it in the holy Spirit, with a pure mind and a fervent spirit, that we may obtain those things which are promised us in him; especially knowledge going before, without which there is no hearing of us, according to that of the Prophet, I will hear him because he hath known my name; Hence at this time no favour can be drawn from the heavens, unless the authority, favor and consent of the name Jesu intervene;

Now the reason I'm bringing up the historical stuff is that both Agrippa & Fortune cast their arguments within a dominantly religious framework (i.e. it's ultimately about God) - although Fortune also considers the Doctrine of Correspondences to have a Rational and Scientific basis. One might posit, from a postmodern perspective, that both are totalising discourses (50p in the swearbox!) and I'd say that these discourses have only begun to be seriously challenged fairly recently - in the last thirty years or so.

So, moving to your question:
does the magickal system of relation between name and thing (sign and referent) not have to be considered in relation to the idea that 'male' and 'female' are just conventional names for arbitrary sets?

IMO, yes. But I'd say, from my experience, for many occultists, it's just too foreign an idea.
 
 
illmatic
08:49 / 07.04.04
There is a completely brillant interview here with Miranda Sawyer, who has work reassess the role that women played in the origins of Tantric Buddhism. I think I'll come back with comments when I've read it again and digested it a little. Sure there's some crossover between here and this thread.
 
 
trouser the trouserian
09:59 / 07.04.04
There's another interview with Miranda Shaw here

I've just finished her book Passionate Enlightenment and it's certainly worth a read if you're interested in this area. For a long time now, the academic view of the role of women in both Buddhist and Hindu Tantric has generally been that both Tantric practice and the textual tradition devalued women - that women were marginal to tantric practice and were exploited by men. Wendy O'Doniger for example, in her Women, Androgynes and other Mythical Beasts examines power hierogamies within tantric relationships and concludes that although women have power, men have authority. Shaw says that this view of women as marginal to tantra is based on western constructions of gender & power (and their assumed universality) and she re-presents women as active participants in the creation of traditions.

More recent scholarship is bearing out some of Shaw's proposals - such as David Gordon White's Kiss of the Yogini which examines early Kaula practices and examines the shift of emphasis in Hindu Tantrism from male adepts interacting with Yoginis (Hindu equivalent of the Dakini) to the internalisation of the feminine through the development of concepts such as kundalini and the chakras - concepts which were crystallised by the reputedly misogynistic Goraknath. Another useful article in this regard is the essay on the Sahajiya samprayada in Tantra in Practice (can't recall the author off the top of me 'ead, tho') which again, examines the prominent role of female gurus and initiation of men by women in respect to this particular lineage.
 
 
trouser the trouserian
14:48 / 07.04.04
I have just come across a book called Dakini's warm breath: the feminine principle in Tibetan Buddhism by Judith Simmer-Brown. Sounds interesting. Anyone read it?
 
 
illmatic
12:38 / 11.07.06
new essay from Phil Hine's site:

Magic is a many-gendered thing
 
 
Ticker
14:33 / 11.07.06
that's a great essay! I think I giggled out loud over the 'Great Trite' remark....



The issue of gender role perception has affected my spiritual/magical work greatly. As I struggled with my gender role, my sexuality, and most importantly my misogynistic views, my relationship with my Deities changed dramatically.

I believe a sin is an act or thought that impairs the communication between the self and the self, the self and the community, and the self and the Divine. My misogynistic view of my own gender was projected upon my perceptions of various female Deities and functioned as a sin blocking my ability to interact with my patron Goddess, my fellow women, and myself. I'd thrown one hell of a baby out with the bath water.

The crux of the issue was a lack of tools and language to understand what the problem was in my perceptions of my gender. The engendered attributes I was presented in both mainstream society and pagan groups kept reinforcing my negative perceptions that femaleness/Goddesses were passive, receptive, and complacent. I felt I could not move into the gender of woman because to do so was to give up too much of my voice, my experience, and power. I felt more comfortable working with my patron male God yet I was not inherently self identified as a man either. I unconsciously shut out my female Deity because I could not accept working with Her. My perceptions of Her were strongly colored by the gender baggage of my society. I couldn't even consciously see Her presence in my life because my prejudice was so strong. Even though there are warrior-huntress-destruction Goddesses that I could relate to I somehow knew I did not belong to any of them.

Eventually I was able to wrangle my misogynistic treatment of other women and the narrow confines of gender roles I was shackled to. Through embracing the less restrictive gender assignments I was able to see one did not have to negate the feminine in order to have sovereignty of self. I learned that the feminine is a construct and as such I was free to make any version that I wished and to accept the versions other people utilized. I was free to learn who my Goddess is from Her directly.

It is an intense point of sadness for me that so many years passed in which I was unable to honor these ways of being and the presence of my Gods fully. It is a complimentary joy to now be able to celebrate the experience of others and to grow closer to my Gods. In doing so my magical work has benefited greatly both due to this increased communication and in my ability to see more clearly who I am.

When magical groups (and non) perceive gender issues as affecting only those who wish to take on roles not traditionally ascribed to their gender, they are failing to see how everyone is limited by these proscribed genders.
 
 
Unconditional Love
15:43 / 11.07.06
The article reminded me of a little research i was doing yesterday about hermes and the corpus hermeticum, i was taken by the part that described hermes as a trangressor of boundaries or a transmuter of limitation, which got me thinking about the relationships between the ideas of gender and alchemy, the transmutation that doesnt take place as an event or confined situation, but a nonstatic process that gender isnt so much an identity but a process of awareness defined by our own particular sense of identification.

I was especially taken by the image in the essay of the transforming of the body, a constant shift and flux, much like the nature of tricksters, revealing the transitory nature of identity and the attendent social self constructions that are engaged in the process of sexual identification as well as other processes of identity.

The idea of the body changing also introduces the question of aging, as our own bodies change, socially imposed images of eternal youth making us feel uncomfortable with the process of bodily change in general. The question of how aging effects magical practice is another ? entirely thou.

The article also reminds me of another article about eshu i read of late, eshu is described as being represented by the number 3 because he is beyond binary identity, he is the third that which is neither neither, the maybe, the perhaps.

The essay also got me thinking about the sexuality of angels and how they are sometimes represented as sexless, yet in apochrypha have sex with women. also how representations of angels differ over time with many modern conceptions of angels being wholy feminine in character.
 
 
Kiltartan Cross
08:41 / 12.07.06
The essay also got me thinking about the sexuality of angels and how they are sometimes represented as sexless, yet in apochrypha have sex with women. also how representations of angels differ over time with many modern conceptions of angels being wholy feminine in character.

Just to pick up on this point - a couple of years ago, I asked quite a few people (thirty or more) whether they thought the Angel of the North was supposed to be male/masculine, or female/feminine, or sexless. As I recall, roughly even numbers of people thought of it as male and female, with no clear bias towards people of a certain gender perceiving it as a particular gender, and a handful of people perceived it as sexless. A thorougly unscientific approach, but interesting to me in that people perceive the same representation differently.
 
  
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