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Haiti

 
 
Baz Auckland
03:27 / 02.03.04
So.. Aristide, Haiti's first elected president is now in exile in the Central African Republic, the rebels as well as the French and US Marines have moved into Port au Prince...

Can anyone explain what is happening? Is this good? bad? both?

Aristide Tells AP the U.S. Forced Him Out

When asked if he left Haiti on his own, Aristide quickly answered: "No. I was forced to leave. They were telling me that if I don't leave they would start shooting, and be killing in a matter of time," Aristide said during the brief interview via speaker phone. He spoke with a thick Haitian accent, his voice obscured at times by a bad connection. It was unclear whether Aristide meant that rebels or U.S. agents would begin shooting.

When asked who the agents were, he responded: "White American, white military. "They came at night. ... There were too many. I couldn't count them," he added. Aristide told reporters that he signed documents relinquishing power out of fear that violence would erupt in Haiti if he didn't comply with the demands of "American security agents."

U.S. authorities have dismissed Aristide's claims as unfounded
 
 
gridley
12:54 / 02.03.04
Yeah, what he said. I have no idea why the Bush white house would want to encourage revolution in Haiti or force a regime change there.
 
 
invisible_al
13:51 / 02.03.04
Well they have sponsored a revolt there which brought Aristide back to power after a coup. Also Haiti lies within the US's immediate sphere of influence (N and S America) at least by the old rules.
However at this point I don't believe a word Artiside says as it was his lack of compromise and rigging of the 2002 election that caused this problem in the first place. That and the small fact the he approves of his supporters charming habit of hanging burning tyres round the necks of enemies of the people.
Of course I may have been swayed by propaganda on this but the man really doesn't come across too well in what I've read of him.

It's actually also a pleasant suprise that the US is letting the UN get involved in this and isn't acting unilaterally. You could have knocked me down with a feather. Perhaps as this isn't as important they've let Colin Powell play with it as a consolation prize.
 
 
gridley
14:41 / 02.03.04
An argument that the CIA is involved in both Haiti and Venezuela and the techniques and criteria that the CIA uses in overthrowing governments.
 
 
gridley
15:27 / 02.03.04
And compliments of Fridge: The fire this time in Haiti was US-fueled
 
 
w1rebaby
15:55 / 02.03.04
It's actually also a pleasant suprise that the US is letting the UN get involved in this and isn't acting unilaterally.

Not that surprising; they don't want to stay there (can't waste the manpower these days). They want to get in, remove Aristide and get out. UN troops can do anything else that needs doing.

This feels like a return to old-school interventionism, where you do most of your work through economics, the CIA, training the opposition etc and only actually invade yourself on rare occasions, rather than new-school where you actually take over the whole country and build the government you want from the ground up.
 
 
Morlock - groupie for hire
16:16 / 02.03.04
There's a short entry in 'Rogue Nations'. Summarising even further, Aristide is democratically elected, deposed in a military coup, 'helped' back into power three years (!) later, pretty much hamstrung if gridley/fridge's link is anything to go by, and now kicked out again.

Interesting that the US can't get their act together until just after Aristide is forced to flee, even though this is happening on their doorstep.

No, I very much doubt this is a good thing. Hell, somehow it sounds like an ideological buffer zone...
 
 
w1rebaby
16:37 / 02.03.04
I dimly remember the first time round, "Operation Restore Democracy" I think it was called. There were IIRC quite a few odd details to do with the reconstruction - while it was a military coup, quite a lot of the military were kept in positions of power by the US.

There are lots of little details. The apparent coup leader has links to the old Duvalier regime and also seems to have been US-trained. Indeed, Human Rights Watch says many of the current coup leaders have dodgy backgrounds, and have been planning this for some time...

As the backgrounder explains, former members of the disbanded Haitian Armed Forces (Forces Armées d’Haiti, FAd’H) have been mobilizing for about three years near the border of the Dominican Republic in central Haiti. In that region, over the past year, bands of 30 to 100 men have been harassing police, killing government supporters, taking over towns temporarily, and recruiting supporters.

The US backed Duvalier but more importantly pretty much created the Haitian army. Here's a 1962 quote from Col. Robert D. Heinl, head of the US Naval Mission to Haiti, explaining the tactic:

"Our policy of 1959, of trying to sustain and build up the Haitian Armed Forces while Duvalier distrusts and downgrades them, is highly realistic and is premised on the sound, long-term considerations that, however troublesome Duvalier may be, he is mortal and therefore a short-term problem, while the Haitian Armed Forces will remain as a central focus of internal power in Haiti as long as the country exists.... They will dominate the selection of the junta or provisional president that succeeds Duvalier"

And how prescient he was.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
19:10 / 02.03.04
There's an article in the UK " Guardian " today ( 02/03 ), that shouldn't be too hard to track down. It's in the Comment section, should be there on the website, though if even half of that's true, it will make you sick.

Or in Deterring Democracy by Noam Chomsky, there's a fair bit on Haiti. And on Cuba, El Salvador, Guatemala, Honduras, Nicaruagua, Costa Rica, Panama, Grenada and so on.

Still, God Bless America, etc, etc,
 
 
Baz Auckland
19:16 / 02.03.04
Oh God...

Duvalier Says He Wants to Return to Haiti

MIAMI - Exiled Haitian dictator Jean-Claude "Baby Doc" Duvalier told a television reporter he wants to return to his homeland now that President Jean-Bertrand Aristide has fled.

"This is my country," Duvalier told WFOR-CBS4 on Monday in an interview in Paris. "I'm ready to put myself at the disposal of the Haitian people." But Duvalier said he doesn't plan to run for president. "That is not on my agenda," Duvalier said
He applauded the "prompt action of the international community," welcomed the presence of U.S. Marines and said the country should stabilize quickly.

Duvalier had been named president for life at age 18 following the death in 1971 of his father, Francois, "Papa Doc" Duvalier. Tens of thousands were killed during the 29-year Duvalier dynasty and hundreds of millions of dollars stolen. Accused of human rights violations and stealing at least $120 million from the national treasury, Duvalier fled to France in 1986.
 
 
Baz Auckland
19:17 / 02.03.04
The Guardian article mentioned by Alex
 
 
w1rebaby
19:27 / 02.03.04
I saw that Duvalier thing... nearly pissed myself.

Interesting that just after I posted that earlier link about Guy Philippe, he declared himself de facto leader of the new Haitian military (previously disbanded).

I just found this, too.

A week ago, Jean-Claude Duperval sat in Haiti's national penitentiary while panicky family members in Orlando chased down rumors that he had been killed by supporters of President Jean-Bertrand Aristide.

Now, Duperval is a free man.

The convicted war criminal and former Haitian general was among the thousands of convicts released Sunday from the country's largest prison when rebels drove into Port-au-Prince.

Duperval's family members here are ecstatic. Just a month ago, they watched as the United States shipped Duperval back to Haiti, where he had been convicted in 2000 for his role in a 1994 politically motivated massacre.


Take a look at that last sentence. The US only just got around to shipping him back, four years after his conviction, and then, amazingly enough, there's a coup which frees him from prison, just in the right place. After the 1994 coup and intervention, he was, bizarrely, "asked to help oversee the transition", despite being a top-ranking general in the same army that the intervention was ostensibly supposed to stop taking power. I wonder if anything like that is going to happen now? I wonder how many other of those "convicts" released were ex-military?
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
14:22 / 05.02.06
Digging this up to talk about the upcoming elections in Haiti, due to take place on Tuesday. However, they have been rescheduled four times since November last year.

What do people think is going to happen?

As far as I can tell, and I'm definitely not as informed as I'd like to be on this, the UN can't actually do any diplomatic work because the US won't let them.

A quick glance at this very basic summary of the presidential candidates suggests, if it is accurate, that the candidates divide into US-backed economic players and non-US backed anti-Doc/anti-Aristide social revolutionaries. There's a surprise.

So, presumably if one of the former gets in, country is plunged into more chaos and turmoil, and if one of the latter, US rescinds aid and country is plunged...

So, better informed people, tell me what's going on here... As far as I can see, Haiti is fucked whatever happens.
 
 
bacon
16:32 / 07.02.06
there was a huge article in the NYTimes sometime within the last week or so about the whole mess that brought down aristide and started the shitstorm down there

it went something like this:

aristide ousted in military coup, aristide placed back in power by clinton, aristide dissolves military, aristide turns increasingly populist, old guard haitian right becomes increasingly disgruntled bush administration begins back channel shananigans, guy phillipe (name might be way off) and the rest launch offensive, town after town begin falling to rebels, marines swoop in and, according to aristide, drag him out against his will, now the interim government wages running street battles against the pro-aristide slum gangs while the UN non-brazilian peace keepers duck rocks and gasoline bombs (from what i've read, the haitians love brazilia futbol so much, they never attack the brazilian peacekeepers) and the security situation is fucked so hard that elections are sure to be a bloodbath, but i guess they're having some anyway

i may have grossly misunderstood the article, be warned, as i was a little foggy the morning i read it
 
 
Dead Megatron
18:01 / 07.02.06
"from what i've read, the haitians love brazilia futbol so much, they never attack the brazilian peacekeepers"

It's very good to be Brazilian, everybody loves us. I just wish we could do more to help the Haitians than just sit there, but without some real international economic help to rebuild the country, there's not much to do (other than sending our footbal star to entertain the people)
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
10:32 / 08.02.06
BBC News has this:
Monitors praise Haiti election

International monitors have praised the running of Haiti's general election, as vote-counting gets under way.

The head of the Organisation of American States, Jose Miguel Insulza, said voting was satisfactory despite a chaotic start...


What this means for the people who will actually be affected by the outcome remains to be seen. Wonder how the OAS will respond if Preval gets a majority?
 
 
bacon
17:34 / 14.02.06
http://news.yahoo.com/fc/world/haiti

i guess if it looks like preval's gonna take it all, they'll just rig the count

when will these idiots catch on? democracy is not the way for them to reach their desired outcomes

they should be trying to turn back to the days of batista and pinochet, or pinochette, or possibly pin-o-shay
 
 
Dead Megatron
18:22 / 14.02.06
It's really too bad gangsterism has ruined the first nation in America to go independent from the colonizers (and thanks to a slave revolution, for that matter)
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
19:00 / 14.02.06
Oh, fuck.

They did it. They actually went and fucking did it. It's a transparent, clumsy fraud that isn't fooling anyone, but that doesn't matter because nobody who gives a toss can do anything about it.

I feel sick.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
19:02 / 14.02.06
"Gangsterism", Megsy? I couldn't agree more, although I differ over which set of gangsters to blame...
 
 
Dead Megatron
21:10 / 14.02.06
There are many "set of gangsters" to blame MC. Both internal and external. Poor and rich. Simple angry mobs and eeevil foreign interests...

Wait a minute. Are you implying the Brazilian troops are to blame> But we're such nice guys...
 
 
Slim
02:39 / 15.02.06
They did it. They actually went and fucking did it. It's a transparent, clumsy fraud that isn't fooling anyone, but that doesn't matter because nobody who gives a toss can do anything about it.

I feel sick.


I don't understand- are you referring to the riots, claiming that the election is a fraud, or claiming that the UN shot rioters?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
10:15 / 15.02.06
I'm claiming that the election was tampered with.
 
 
Dead Megatron
10:48 / 15.02.06
Much probably...
 
 
Dead Megatron
19:14 / 15.02.06
You people can scrap my "much probably" comment oin the last post. I just found this atricle on cnn.com. Unbelievable.

I also found on a Brazilian news site (won't link it because it's in portuguese) an article saying the UN troops are already thinking of a legal way to give the victory to Preval anyway, thus keeping the election to be completely ruined. It's a tricky business, but necessary, it seems.

Democracy ain't easy...
 
  
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