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Gnostic Voudon Workbook

 
  

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Phex: Dorset Doom
17:47 / 28.02.04
The Gnostic Voudon (or 'Vodou') Workbook seems to be mentioned a lot as 'required reading'. I've been looking to expand my horizons outside of the Chaos paradigm and the GVW seems like a good place to start. I like the 'workbook' idea, it seems to suggest a structured programme rather than a few vague details and some philosophical musings (yeah, I know a lot of you are going to be down on the whole 'structured programme' thing)
On Amazon it's £200 second-hand, there are other places where it runs as high as £600. A search for it online in .pdf format turned up empty.
Does anyone know a place to get this book within the price-range of an impovrished student? A downloadable version would be particularly helpful.
 
 
Nobody's girl
18:40 / 28.02.04
I'm intrigued...
 
 
---
19:36 / 28.02.04
200 fucking quid?!? I wanna end up in another dimension for a month for that price...........and a dimension that's good aswell.
 
 
Ria
20:29 / 28.02.04
the topic keeps coming up.

okay. I have seen and leafed through a copy. San Francisco Public Library has it or did when I last visited there.

I do not know if you could really learn from that edition of the book. it lacks any sort of diagrams or sigils (for which, contact Bertiaux anyway) and it goes from very simple to very complicated in no steps to psychedelic word maze.

if you would really like to try Michael Bertiaux's magic then you could contact him about mail order courses and his current coursebooks. you would have to do that anyway to obtain the graphics.
 
 
trouser the trouserian
08:41 / 29.02.04
Ben Furney at Caduceus books (2nd-hand book dealer) is advertising a copy (+ photocopied veves) at a mere £275.
 
 
louisemichel
10:01 / 29.02.04
That's Ben Fernee, not Furney, but indeed, he has one for 275 quids...
I never had any problem with Ben's books... so, if you want to buy it you can go without any doubts...
I read somewhere that Bertiaux was prepping a second, affordable, edition. Anyone else heard of this ?
Gypsy Lantern, your thoughts ?
 
 
--
13:43 / 29.02.04
The book gets a lot of knocking here as being deliberetly weird and incomprehensible, but I tend to like those sorts of things. I'm not so much interested in learning anything from the book... I'm just curious to it's contents and I like to read odd things, they inspire my creativity (hell, when I read "The Invisibles" the creative block in my head burst like a dam). Plus, it's one of the few books listed in the back of "Anarchy for the Masses" that I haven't read yet.

If anyone here has a copy and feels like parting with it (or are willing to make photocopies) please let me know. I am not a rich man but maybe a trade could be arranged. My library is fairly large and I have a huge CD collection with hundreds of titles, so I could easily photocopy or burn anything. You don't really want to see me blow $400 on intellectual curiosity alone, do you?
 
 
Phex: Dorset Doom
15:25 / 29.02.04
Same here. (anyone know WHY it's so expensive in the first place? Is it just rare or huge or printed on gold leaf?) The same goes for my library and CD collection, I could easily put together ten or so CD-Rs with a hundred or so albums on altogether (which would cost well in excess of the book's regular asking price in real money.)
A three-figure price for a book just gets me all curious...
 
 
--
17:12 / 29.02.04
Hell, I'd be willing to burn all 35 Throbbing Gristle live shows from the boxed sets (those alone cost me close to 300 bucks).
 
 
illmatic
13:02 / 01.03.04
It's expensive because occultists are booky nerds (that's not a value judgement, I'm one myself). There's only a few copies in circulation - probably an initial print run of 500 tops, and the law of supply and demand does the rest. Needless to say, it has nowt to do with the books quality or content. There's plenty of other great books on Voodoun out there for you to get stuck into (there was a biblography thread around here recently). The first 10 chapters are basically a simple course in candle magick, and then it becomes increasingly bonkers. I don't have it btw, but I'd feel fucking robbed if I paid £200+ for it. If I paid that much for a book I'd want it to cook me dinner, shag me senseless, roll me a spliff and run me a bath afterwards.
 
 
Seth
13:23 / 01.03.04
I'd do all that for a fiver, Illmatic.

Actually a pint would do.
 
 
trouser the trouserian
13:52 / 01.03.04
Some books seem to acquire a "reputation" which boosts their sought-after value to dizzy heights. I've seen Kenneth Grant's Nightside of Eden going for as much as £300 (before Skoob Books reprinted it). Bought my first copy of that for £1.99 in the remaindered bin at WH Smithys - and sold it about 10 years later for £150!
 
 
louisemichel
16:23 / 01.03.04
150 quids ten days later ? now, that's magick !
 
 
Boy in a Suitcase
07:04 / 02.03.04
Yeah, and as far as gold leaf... the whole thing is basically mimeographed typewriter pages with occasional "diagrams" that look like the scribbles of nine-year-old monkeys.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
11:47 / 02.03.04
I like the 'workbook' idea, it seems to suggest a structured programme rather than a few vague details and some philosophical musings (yeah, I know a lot of you are going to be down on the whole 'structured programme' thing)

Classic. Structured programme. Michael Bertiaux. That's brightened my morning.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
12:02 / 02.03.04
On the photocopying/CD burning thing, I've had more than one magician imply that there's a nasty curse on anyone ripping off MB's copyright in this way by duplicating or receiving a duplicated copy of the book. Wouldn't really be too surprised if there was. Quite a nice bit of Ring-style urban mythology I thought. Possibly just the kind of mad paranoia that attaches itself to something as crazy as that book, but I wouldn't go near a photocopied version myself...
 
 
illmatic
12:08 / 02.03.04
Seth: You're on. What will I get if I chuck in a packet of Ready Salted?

*rots thread back to sanity*
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
12:21 / 02.03.04
My last post was meant to have (creepy voice) ..... (/creepy voice) tags around it, but I put them in the wrong brackets and they didn't come out. Quite fun adding to the insidious forbidden mystery of the VGW though.
 
 
penitentvandal
18:27 / 02.03.04
Photocopies of my arse have, I've been told, also had a sinister, curse-like effect on people. Apparently the curse manifests in the form of an uncontrollable urge to throw up and the continuous repetition of the words 'pale, spotty and hairy? Nooooooooo!' So, fear my arse. My arse has power.

Y'know, I was just about to go on Amazon and have a look for the book as well. But £200+? Dang. I wouldn't pay that for a digital quality recording of the Diamond Dogs tour, and coming from me that means a lot.

How much of this money does Bertiaux get, btw, or does it just go to unscrupulous book dealers? Coz if it's the latter I would imagine a case could be made for him getting better royalties from a mass-market edition than at present...but then I never had a head for figures, so I may be wrong.
 
 
Seth
20:50 / 02.03.04
Illmatic: crisp crumbs in your pubics.

We set such a good example as moderators.
 
 
trixr4kids
00:23 / 03.03.04
The Gnostic Voudon Workbook for £200-£600... hmmm there is a valuable lesson to learned from this,

but it will cost you
 
 
illmatic
06:32 / 03.03.04
I think if it went mass market everybody would see it, read it, realise they don't understand it and don't want it. The more inaccessible it is, the more people will want it.
 
 
Seth
16:03 / 03.03.04
That valuable lesson wouldn't happen to be, "A fool and hir money are soon parted?"

Would it?
 
 
penitentvandal
18:04 / 03.03.04
At the risk of sounding even more gauche than usual, may I ask - is it any good?

Not - is it worth spending £200 on because, obviously, it isn't, but: is it a good, useful primer on using voudoun in a magickal context? Does it refresh the parts other books on voudoun don't reach? Are there more affordable, more accessible alternatives out there, and can anybody name them?

When I was messing around with the Santeria pantheon, I got most of my info from a book called Santeria: African magic in Latin America by a woman called Migene Gonzalez-Wippler, and it seemed to do the trick - gave me a basis I could use for more practical explorations of the mythos. It cost me about a tenner from the local Waterstones (this was in the days before I had home internet access and could order the most recondite works over the web at the drop of a hat), but I always had a sense that, I dunno, if I got a copy of the fabled VGW I could be doing so much more - I mean, Grant used it, so that stands to reason, right?

Obviously I'm a lot more sanquine about these issues nowadays, and I don't think that the King Mob seal of approval necessarily means that a book must be tha shiznit in terms of magickal know-how; which is why I ask the question:

the Voudoun Gnostic Workbook. We hear rumours about it, Grant uses it, copies sell for £200+ but - is it any good?
 
 
louisemichel
19:00 / 03.03.04
what do you call "good" ?
Please, define.

Some can read the future in a dog's shit. Is a dog's shit good ?
I mean... Some freaks took the Necronomicon, which is a fraud remember, tried really hard on the fake rituals and obtained some success...
So, is the Necronomicon good ?

I find the VGW inspiring.
Totally crazy, but inspiring...
Fucking expensive, but inspiring...
Some of the things in it I don't even understand, but inspiring...
 
 
--
21:42 / 03.03.04
That's what I'm talking about louisemicheal. Even if I don't learn anything from it it may still inspire me in some creative manner (one of the reasons I like weird films). I mean, a lot of magic books I read not because I want to practice what's inside, but just because I enjoy reading new, interesting things and exposing myself to other people's worldviews/ideas.
 
 
Logos
00:11 / 04.03.04
Can anyone post, say, the table of contents? Maybe a brief synopsis of the thing?

I know there's radioactive werespiders in there somewhere, but beyond that...
 
 
louisemichel
06:35 / 04.03.04
the table of contents is nine fucking pages...
it would take hours to post it...
and you already know about photocopying and scanning it, thanks to Gypsy Lantern...
(creepy laughs where they're due)
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
11:48 / 04.03.04
I once heard the VGW described as "what Star Trek might have been like if it was designed by Kenneth Grant". It's mad as a bag of radioactive spiders from Pluto, and therefore resolutely not the best place to go for a straightforward or accurate introduction to African and African Diaspora religious traditions. However it's fascinating and brilliant in the same way that Kenneth Grant is fascinating and brilliant. The VGW weaves together aspects of Les Mysteres, along with aspects of Tantra, Thelema, Lovecraft, and a million other things. The easiest way to get a brief overview of what it's about is to read Kenny G's 'Cults of the Shadow' (still in print, available from SKOOB books), which has a chapter devoted to Bertiaux and his group Les Coulevre Noir.

A lot of people involved with Santeria seem to be extremely down on the Migene Gonzales Whippler books, and she doesn't seem to be a particularly popular character. I'm not sure if this is because of any misrepresentation she's made or just because she happens to be writing about The Religion in the first place. It's a notoriously secretive world. I quite like her books myself, as there's not a great many works available on the subject and she does convey a sense of the Mysteries. A lot more books on Santeria do seem to be coming onto the market though, and it's been suggested that Santeria might be coming out into the open a bit more. If you were to include all of the related religions (Candomble, Macumba, Palo, Vodou, etc...) you might be looking at a major world religion, and one that's growing rapidly.

My opinion, for what it's worth, is that you don't learn about Les Mysteres from a book, 200 quid or not, you learn from meeting and interacting with The Powers. Which can be a rough and terrifying ride, but that's sometimes the nature of magic. It's worth reading as much as you can around the subject to give yourself as many signposts as possible to navigate by. The more clued up you are about the general nature of the territory, the less scary chasms you're likely to stumble into. The Religion is living and experiential. There are no authoritative step-by-step guides to Vodon, in the same way that there are no authoritative step-by-step guides to human relationships.
 
 
macrophage
12:12 / 04.03.04
Everythings seem to be going topsy turvy - arse photocopies, Ring style memeplexes, etc... Belief as a tool certainly but whew too much money fer me!!! That's like a weeks worth of wageslavery fer most people! I'll be making a multi-purpose eidolon servitor fer it Blue Peter styleee. Were spiders rock - the VGW looks quite advanced I'd start off with other stuff - at least you'd save money if you couldn't get on with that paradigm - unless bingo you keep said copy fer 10 years and then sell it on. But don't listen to me I'm a tight bastard that rather find free pdf's than anything else. I've had a look at his website and there are some related ones but on a practical level I couldn't afford to do a course or that. Last week I thought that it mite be cool to do some Paul McKenna Training (NLP) Mammon's a wierd one innit!!!!
 
 
---
12:17 / 04.03.04
It's a notoriously secretive world. I quite like her books myself, as there's not a great many works available on the subject and she does convey a sense of the Mysteries.

Hi there Gypsy Lantern, your back! I have Spells, Ceremonies and Magic on top of the scanner next to me and i think it's a great book, it really got me back into magic a couple of years ago. Do you have it?
 
 
Phex: Dorset Doom
12:26 / 04.03.04
Radioactive WereSpiders? I'm intrigued... please elaborate.
 
 
--
14:41 / 04.03.04
Yeah, I think it was all the were-spider stuff that got me intruiged too. Then again, I love spiders. And any magic system that throws in some Lovecraftian mythos usually gets my approval.

Actually I'm really interested in reading about Baron Zaraguin and similiar insect/scorpian loas. That aspect of "The Invisibles" really intruiged me and I'd like to read a bit more about it... I tried googling Baron Zaraguin but didn't get many results.
 
 
DecayingInsect
15:24 / 04.03.04
I'm also after the VGWB... I keep delaying shelling out the £200-300 on the grounds that there are always rumours of a revised edition (anyone?)

But where else can we read of Vudutronics etc?
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
10:04 / 05.03.04
Actually I'm really interested in reading about Baron Zaraguin and similiar insect/scorpian loas.

They'll bite your head off.

So what, you've read Grant Morrison's account of working with the Scorpion Loa, and subsequent terror and hospitalisation, and you fancy a bit of that for yourself? Takes all sorts I suppose...

If you feel that you know what you're doing, and have the skills and experience to handle potentially complex negotiations with fierce vicious insect intelligences, then go for it. But be aware of what you're getting into, and don't enter into any deals that you're not prepared to keep your side of. Essentially, I think you need to have a good reason for cutting deals with the insect loa, as it's a high risk business. Perhaps you actually are an international assasin and genuinely feel that Baron Z's gifts would be crucial to your professional development, I don't know. But if it's a bit of exotic magical tourism you're after, I'd suggest giving some serious thought to your needs and motivations. I find that it's often worth applying the same criteria to your interactions with entities as you would to your interactions with other humans. Do you generally pay social calls to the Mafia?
 
  

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