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slinkyvagabond
23:02 / 26.02.04
OK, I am being self-serving here as usual but it did occur to me that it's been a while since I've seen a Barbelith Problem Page (in fact, have I ever seen a Barbelith Problem Page? I mean, what good is a board if we can't get together and discuss those knotty crosstitching problems?). Although I am shy and retiring, I thought maybe I could be the one to open the floor to the wave of messy entanglements you people surely are, um, entangled in. If you open up to the good members of this here board doubtlessly they will have tips and advice for you, solving your deeply ingrained neuroses with one click of the mouse. What I'm saying is that this is a thread where all the lost souls can detail whatever kind of problem it is that they have, be it practical, emotional, complete nonsense or whatever, and any of the other lost souls can try and offer some advice/commiserations etc.

Because I am so entirely selfless I'll start. I know it's scary being the first to speak up.


Dear Barbelith Agony Assorted Relations,
I'm not actually looking for any solution to this as such, just wondering if anyone has had a similar experience and did it work out ok. Or did it end in a veritable fireball of surpressed rage and loathing.

Basically, I've been *seeing* this guy who identitfies as bi. Really, that should be fine, I'm pretty down with the fluid sexual orientation thing myself, so in theory I should be all cool with it and whatnot. I know that he has gone out with women before whereas I'm not sure if he ever has gone out with another man but I reckon he's had sexual experiences with men. So far, looks fine and dandy and I keep castigating myself for worrying about this. However, we haven't, uh, consummated our relationship yet and it's starting to worry me. There are a few factors that are preventing us from seeing each other more than once a week but we have had the opportunity to fuck, to put it with my usual delicacy and though I thought I was more than amply illustrating my willingness to do so, his response so far has been to fool around (as they say) then fall asleep. Tiredness may be a factor here. In my experience, though, when you're in your early 20s and you really want to fuck you can do it in pretty much any state. I'm just wondering if maybe he likes having a girlfriend because of all the nice things about it (and because naturally I'm sooo appealing) other than sex (and I mean intercourse). Is it possible that's the case? Anyway it's pretty obvious that he does fancy me i.e. something a more intense than just wanting to be friends, but perhaps - ugh, I dunno - he doesn't like penetrative sex with women even though he does fancy them in the typical visceral way that people fancy each other? I'm not denying his right to identitfy as bi just because he mightn't think penetration with women is the hottest thing on the sexual menu. Before anyone asks does it matter to me that much - yes, it does. I already feel somewhat devalued because he keeps telling me he "wants me" and yet clearly, he doesn't want me all that badly, at least in that way. I feel a little one-sided in my lust and everyone knows that one-sided lust in a new realtionship just isn't good for the self-esteem.

Do I feel weird spilling this out to lots (potentially) of people I don't know? Why, yes, I do. But it's something I can't really say to my friends, who know that I'm seeing him and have been for a few weeks and expect that we've already slept with each other. I'm actually embarressed to tell them we haven't. In a neat reversal of the way things were, say, 50 years ago his not pressurizing me to fuck him would signal to them that he wasn't particulaly interested or that for "bi" read "gay" and that I'm making a total fucking fool of myself, pretending that he likes me. I know no-one knows the particulars but I'm not asking for any answers... Just want to express my fears. If anyone has any comment or stories to tell, feel free. Other than that, the Problem Page is here for you. No problem is too stupidly insignifgant or frighteningly complicated and horrible.

Cheers,
SV
 
 
40%
13:10 / 27.02.04
I have started a couple of such threads, and I'm not entirely decided on the merits of it. You sometimes receive some good advice, and it's good to know that people can identify with your troubles, but once that initial feeling of satisfaction wears off, you may be left thinking "hey, a bunch of strangers know about my personal problems now". I'm tending towards the view that extreme vulnerability works better on a case-by-case basis. The public vulnerability stuff just feels a bit too out of control for me. You never know who's going to read it and what they may infer about you from it. Not that I'm trying to make you paranoid or anything.

But I think it's good to talk about problems in principle. It's just something that when you've done it enough, you may start to feel the sense of exposure resulting from it outweighs the benefits. I mean, 'one' may feel that, not you personally.

I wish I had something of benefit to say that would make your vulnerability here seem worthwhile, but I'm not sure I do. All I would say is not to worry too much about 'his sexuality'. Maybe he has issues of whatever kind, but it's not your job to figure that out. It's your job to know what you want and whether you're satisfied. So maybe make your own needs a bit more central to the situation.

You could talk to him about it, but since you are 'shy and retiring', you may not fancy that option. Besides, having to talk to someone about feeling insecure about how attractive you are to them is likely to be very hard, and having done so, you might feel that if his behaviour did change, it was only because you said something, not because he really wanted to.

What has behaviour been like over time? Does he go hot and cold? Has he gradually become warmer or colder over time? Or has it been pretty much the same all the way through? I would think about any trends in his behaviour that you might extrapolate from. I.e. if it's been this way for a few weeks without changing much, it may be fair to assume it's not going to change anytime soon.

By the way, why don't you feel you can talk to your friends about it? Why be embarassed about it? You think all of their relationships have run smooth all the time? Maybe you should think about forming deeper relationships with those friends, or finding others that you can form relationships with, who you can talk to about stuff like this. People IRL who actually know you enough to comment with a degree of knowledge. Cos general advice from internet people can only go so far.

Right. Well I hope my assorted thoughts are of some help, and not too insensitive. Good luck.
 
 
ibis the being
13:51 / 27.02.04
You have to suck it up and ask him. maybe he's the type of person who doesn't have intercourse until he's sure that it's going to be serious. If you are in fact 'fooling around' then it's quite possible that he's sexually attracted to you but just wants to wait a little for whatever personal reasons. Maybe he's been burned by girls before, maybe he had some kind of odd/bad sexual experience w someone in the past that makes him move more slowly now... who knows? You just have to talk to HIM, but you knew that already didn't you? Maybe you're loathe to do so because you're so paranoid that the answer is he's gay, but look at it more simplistically, as a sexual incompatibility issue. All you really have to say is, hey [new boyfriend], I'm ready to have sex w you and I'm confused - could you please tell me why you don't want to you yet? Don't sidetrack the discussion by asking if you're unattractive etc but he'll likely be caught up in reassuring that you are rather than explaining what's going on in his head.

I relate to your tale quite a bit - not to the specifics of your problem so much as to your tone and what I think is insecurity at the root of it. I'm wrestling w insecurity in my current relationship like I never have before, though for me it manifests more as jealousy (on my part). So based on that, my other word of advice is don't drive yourself crazy. Talk to him about it, but then at a certain point just try to put it to bed (ahem) and not let the paranoia consume you.
 
 
ibis the being
13:54 / 27.02.04
another thought, forgive me if this is icky to suggest, but: could be he has a chronic std and would rather not sleep w you than tell you until he has an idea of whether it'll be long-term.
 
 
slinkyvagabond
14:33 / 27.02.04
I do agree with you, 40%, I wasn't particularly sure of the merits of discussing my not-really-all-THAT-problematic problem in public, not so much because of the shame factor but it is kind of an imposition to display your problem to strangers. Or at least it's considered so in western society and those that do, especially IRL, are seen as having a lack of control. However, I do remember a couple of occasions when people posted threads in Conversation because they had something they really needed to talk about. In those cases the issues were very serious and it seemed a good thing that people felt that they would get a sympathetic ear while maintaining the dignity of relative anonymity. So I figured I'd be ok. As soon as I posted it though I felt like a twat. Just as you said, there was an intial thrill of getting it off my chest and then a yawning horror in my diaphragm as I realised I'd just revealed to people I don't know stuff I'm having trouble talking about to close friends. Which is why I'm back here so soon. I just had to look at the car wreck that is me running off at the mouth (or, well, fingers). I'm deeply gratified that no-one has bawled me out of it for my selfishness. That said, I mean it, if everybody else wants to join in and moan or, as in my case, meander nonsensically about some insecurity please come onboard.

BTW, yeah, ibis, unfortunately I am aware that the person I should really be asking is Mr. Man. But ugh. We did to some extent talk about this, it seemed to be all sorted out and then I just got all anxious again, justifiably in a sense because despite aforementioned "sorting out" nothing really did change. Humph.
 
 
Cat Chant
14:52 / 27.02.04
Personally, I think you need to disentangle enjoyment of particular sex acts from sexual orientation. Penis-in-vagina penetration just might not be his thing, as you point out, even if his sexual orientation were exclusively towards women. Talk to him about this, because the trouble with phrases like "fooling around" and "intercourse" (as perhaps becomes much more obvious when you have girl-girl sex/fooling-around) is that he might think you're already having sex - even though you clearly don't.

Obviously I don't know nearly enough about him, you, or your relationship to give you any advice about whether to take him out for ice-cream and initiate a searing theoretical discussion about the heteronormativity of vaginal-penile penetration and its possible reclamation by the bi community, or whether to pull him closer while "fooling around" and whisper "I really want you to fuck me, ooh baby" into his ear in a sultry whisper. Either might work.
 
 
40%
15:22 / 27.02.04
Selfishness should not come into it. This board works on a democratic basis. Anyone can start a thread on anything, and if it's not popular, it will die a death, with no great imposition involved. Not everyone on the board seems to like these kinds of threads, but enough people reply to them.

It had occurred to me whether a forum for these things might be a good idea though. So that anyone who feels like talking about their personal problems has a specific outlet for that, because the reality is that the board does get used for that purpose. And those who aren't into that don't have to read it. However, I suspect the suggestion might be met with distaste by some, who would feel it is not what Barbelith is supposed to be about.

I'm not really sure of the merits of such an idea, but I mention it here in case anyone has any thoughts on the subject. I'm not taking the idea quite seriously enough to start a policy thread on it, but I'd still be interested in hearing some arguments.
 
 
Nobody's girl
16:03 / 27.02.04
The key to any good sexual relationship- communication. Easier said than done, I know, it's hard to do at the beginning of a relationship but it's essential if things are going to develop healthily.

I have been in similar situations to you and as a result of my reluctance to talk about what the state of play was I've been strung along by headgamers. Not fun.
 
 
slinkyvagabond
21:47 / 01.03.04
Again, 40%, I concur. Perhaps a specific place in which to discuss this kind of thing where it wouldn't interfere with the general tone of Coversation (mainly topical and/or lighthearted or info-seeking) would be nice but as you say I'm not sure Barbelith is the right place for a whole forum. However, there's no other board I would've taken it to myself. But that's also why I tried to make this thread for whoever wants it, not just for my own dilemma. Thanks for the advice - at the moment I'm just trying to let the whole situation just flow, spool out of its own accord. It's not a huge headfuck and at this time there really is no point in trying to bend things to my will. I have a problem with letting things go. And maybe that's the real crux of the matter.

Deva - you're right, clarity is necessary. I would say that I respect any individual's choice as to whether or not they enjoy penile-vaginal or indeed penile-anal penetration or penetration with an object (such as the ORGANIC veg recommended in another thread) but I also have preferences and would ask that those be respected. If that's not possible then the relationship would have to be reconsidered/reconfigured.
 
 
grant
16:36 / 02.03.04
We used to have a "Help" forum that was separate from "Policy" and topics like this would pop up all the time there, sort of humorously (since it was meant to be help with the board software), but often dead seriously.

Deva is wise.
 
 
Cat Chant
17:14 / 02.03.04
slinkyvagabond - yes, totally, about having your preferences respected as well - just that it sounds like you both need to be clear about what those preferences are - and whether this is a matter of physical/erotic preferences or of some other (emotional, etc) issue. The trouble with sex (well, one of the many troubles) is that everything is simultaneously overloaded with potential meaning and completely individual, so it's never quite clear what those meanings are... which is why slash is fun to write and why having sex with humans is (hmm, better choose my words here: a bugger? hard? Hee hee hee) complicated.
 
 
panavatar
17:41 / 02.03.04
Just to reiterate what everyone else has said--talk to him about it.

Speaking more specifically, I think you're concentrating more on his sex and/or gender preferences than you are his sex act preferences, when it should be the other way around.

A lot of people don't like penetration, for various reasons. It could also be that he's never had penetrative sex with people of your gender, and is waiting for you to make the first move.

Ask him why he hasn't given an indication that he wants penetrative sex. Tell him that you want it, that it's important to you--and see what happens.
 
  
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