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The character "Jolly Roger" in the invisibles, her death in the last book

All Acting Regiment

19:46 / 23.02.04

I'm sure there's something I've missed here, but why do th other invisibles just let jolly roger's body get dragged away to the pit? Seemingly by one of the enemy? Do they all not like her or something?

Do you think this is in there to be deliberately shocking?

Aertho

20:04 / 23.02.04

Keep in mind that at that point in the book, every character was getting absolutley aware of their "immanent symbolism" in the context of the universe. Also, all hell had broken loose at the Palace. Jack and Fanny ran out one side while KM hobbled out the other. Symbolically, though, Jolly Roger was killed and was dragged off into the heap of other human bodies becasue she wasn't a suitable hero for the next twelve years. She was sacrificed and turned into an idea, symbolising all the past violence and egocentricity of their past adventures.

Regrettable Juvenilia

08:13 / 24.02.04

Charitable answer: Roger refuses to swerve from her path of live by the gun, die by the gun. Whether you think she "should" have stopped shooting people in the head isn't really the point - it's a form of karma, cause-and-effect, she meets an end appropriate to the life she's been living thus far.

Uncharitable answer: she gets the fate that's been telegraphed for King Mob, but which he avoids by virtue of being a bit like Grant Morrison (oh, and by sitting on a hill for a bit - which makes up for all those dead people). Roger is a butch dyke and so disposable. Karma my arse!

Rain

08:34 / 24.02.04

Hmmm. Remember that when Jack & Fanny are talking afterwards, Jack says that "nobody ever dies", or words to that extent. Maybe Roger dies and is dumped unceremoniously to remind us that everybody , by this stage, is awakening to the fact that they are just characters in a game/story/reality. We're not supposed to care...
This reminds me a lot of the Tibetan chod ritual that Grant keeps going on about, where the participant is killed by supernatural beasties, only to resurrect again, but changed.
In the same way that John is Quimper and the DI and John too, maybe we ought to be looking out for who else Roger might be?

yawn - thing's buddy

14:47 / 24.02.04

its cos despite being a grey haired one eyed dyke with bad breath and shit patter, deep down, specially when her atoms are cold, well, she's just the same as every other cunt. hence chuck in her wiv all the uvvers.

All Acting Regiment

20:50 / 24.02.04

Aye, aye- it struck me as odd that King Mob didn't seem too bothered about it, as he and her go way back.

PatrickMM

21:08 / 25.02.04

Chris, I see your point, but you could say that about a lot of stuff in 3.2. I'm not sure if Grant was actually constrained by the twelve issues he had set out, or whether he intended things to be so ambiguous, but the fate of Roger, King Mob's reaction to the return of John a Dreams, what exactly happens to John a Dreams after the scene in the church, Fanny, KM and Jack saying good bye before they go their seperate ways. There's a lot of loose ends, and it really bothered me the first time I read the book, but now I've got no problem with it, we don't really need to see what we know happens played out, it's better to move onto other things.

Though I still would have loved a KM/John scene, since their relationship was running under the entire book, specifically KM's failure to live up to John, and I think the two of them would have a really interesting conversation when reunited.

Troy Wilson

17:53 / 27.02.04

If you ask me, there a lot of threads running through The Invisibles that end up going nowhere. And I know they're supposed to go nowhere - and everywhere. And I know life's like that. But still...

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