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Caitlin Kiernan

 
 
quinine92001
21:08 / 11.02.04
Anyone read any of her novels? I have read a few of her short stories and her fist novel Silk which I can't remember a lot about. I saw "Low Red Moon" in Borders the other day and read the blurb on the back. It is supposed to a sequel to "Threshold" and a couple of short stories that I haven't read are all linked together. All I know is that it might have to do with "the Great Old Ones" in Birmingham AL.
 
 
eddie thirteen
21:27 / 11.02.04
I read Silk a long time ago -- like, whenever it was new, which I think was around '98/'99 -- and really loved her characters, and the writing style itself, though I remember that whatever supernatural menace the protagonists faced was so vague as to be totally "hah?"-inducing. As was, ultimately, the plot...actually, I don't think there *was* a plot to Silk, but I really liked it anyway. Therefore, uh, I think it only appropriate that Caitlin should move on to Lovecraft, the master of the vaguely-defined cosmic horror himself.
 
 
--
17:32 / 12.02.04
Got halfway through "Silk" but never finished it for some reason. Just didn't captivate me. IMO Kiernan can't hold a candle to Poppy Z. Brite, though I can't say I'm a fan of Brite's current work.
 
 
eddie thirteen
00:35 / 13.02.04
Word to Sypha. I had a hardcore crush on Poppy from afar for most of the '90s, though she kinda lost her mojo after Exquisite Corpse, I'm afraid. I do have hope she'll return to form eventually, based on nothing other than (a) it depresses me to think she won't, and (b) I can't imagine her current work is especially lucrative, and ultimately I think she'll once again want to write a book that sells (her case being one of the weird ones where writing commercially actually produces *better* results than writing...um...non-commercially). Whatever happens, though, Lost Souls in particular should be read by all.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
08:30 / 13.02.04
See, I'm of the opinion that CK is FAR superior to Ms Brite... not wishing to diss the latter (I am a huge fan- Lost Souls is indeed wonderful, and hey! I actually think Exquisite Corpse rocks too)... they both write a good story. It's in the nuts and bolts I think Kiernan excels- her writing is, to put it bluntly, a lot better. And- and this is the important bit- a lot better than you expect from a horror novel. (And no, I'm not attempting to ghettoise the genre any further than it already is... it's just a nice surprise when it's used properly, is all.)

"Silk" is one of my all-time favourite horror novels... "Threshold" and "Bright Red Moon" don't quite match up, but hey! She'd set the goalposts pretty fucking harshly. That said, they are both great books... BRM beats Threshold because, as has been said before, Ms Kiernan REALLY had to go with the Cthulhu Mythos at some point. And I really like the way she did it.

I dig CK for her prose and her characters*... and the sense of menace. The beginnings of her books are like listening to a Tom Waits album sung in a language you don't understand. Full of dark promise. For this reason, I was actually disappointed when stuff started to happen in Silk... I was vibing so much more on the build-up, the characters and just the whole FEEL of the thing that ANYTHING was gonna be something of a let-down.
(Oh, and again in defence of myself against accusations of hating PZB- "The Lazarus Heart" was a bloody good book. Which is a compliment I never thought I'd level against a franchised thingy.)



*this is why I prefer her prose to her comics (though they're pretty good themselves)- it's kind of like why I always hated the film version of "Under Milk Wood"- if you can SEE it, then a good portion of the words are no longer necessary and are lost.
 
 
Bard: One-Man Humaton Hoedown
17:05 / 13.02.04
I quite liked "Silk". I do agree that there wasn't an awful lot of plot to it, but rather than having a complex plot it had a relativly loose one that focused on the development of the characters and their interaction with one another.

While I was somewhat confused by the fact that the monster(s) was(were) never explained, I didn't really mind after a while and accepted it as one of those unknowable sort of Lovecraft things.

While she's definitly no Lovecraft, I found "Silk" to be an enjoying novel and certainly several steps above some of the stuff I've read in the past.
 
 
eddie thirteen
17:40 / 13.02.04
Slightly off-topic, but in re: PZB's Crow novel, The Lazarus Heart -- I mean, yeah, I enjoyed it well enough, but I do kinda have to include it in the post-Poppy-mojo period in that it largely read to me like a recycling of themes she'd handled better previously, albeit with the character development turned down and the polymorphous perversity cranked all the way up. (That latter shocked me quite a bit, too, given the media tie-in nature of the project; I'd have figured someone in an editorial capacity would have freaked to find a gay/bi...something? Crow avenging the murder that destroyed his ongoing menage a trois with a transsexual and her brother -- !!! -- but either the person in charge of the project knew what s/he was getting when PZB was hired and is in possession of major, major doses of clit and/or balls...or, and I frankly find this more likely, PZB was hired as a popular cult horror writer whom no one in editorial had ever actually, like, read, and by the time the manuscript was received, it was too late to do anything about it.) Lazarus Heart is definitely one of the very finest works of fanfic I have ever read, but that said, I think it's kinda minor in comparison to her best stuff.
 
 
eddie thirteen
17:41 / 13.02.04
Slightly off-topic, but in re: PZB's Crow novel, The Lazarus Heart -- I mean, yeah, I enjoyed it well enough, but I do kinda have to include it in the post-Poppy-mojo period in that it largely read to me like a recycling of themes she'd handled better previously, albeit with the character development turned down and the polymorphous perversity cranked all the way up. (That latter shocked me quite a bit, too, given the media tie-in nature of the project; I'd have figured someone in an editorial capacity would have freaked to find a gay/bi...something? Crow avenging the murder that destroyed his ongoing menage a trois with a transsexual and her brother -- !!! -- but either the person in charge of the project knew what s/he was getting when PZB was hired and is in possession of major, major doses of clit and/or balls...or, and I frankly find this more likely, PZB was hired as a popular cult horror writer whom no one in editorial had ever actually, like, read, and by the time the manuscript was received, it was too late to do anything about it.) Lazarus Heart is definitely one of the very finest works of fanfic I have ever read, but that said, I think it's kinda minor in comparison to her best stuff.
 
 
--
00:19 / 14.02.04
What I like about Brite is she writes about her obsessions, whatever those may be at the moment. Sadly at the moment that obsession appears to be two (imo) utterly boring normal gay chefs living in New Orleans. And food. I'm not saying I'd want her to do another serial killer/vampire novel, but gee, a little more edge would be nice. "Exquisite Corpse" made me queasy, and that's an accomplishment in itself. It seems the more normal her characters become the less I can identify with them. I'm sorry, but I really thought that "The Value of X" was nowhere near as good as her old stuff.

[nostalgic college-goth-phase flashback: Me in my black trenchcoat huddled up in my car at the deserted campus parking lot past midnight, portable radio on, listening to the college radio station's weekly goth/industrial show while reading "Lost Souls" and, later "Drawing Blood". Happier days, that...]

Um, I may give "Silk" another chance one day. I like how Kiernan used lots of pop culture references (PZB does the same thing). Helps me to identify with the character better... Or maybe I'll seek out what they're watching/reading/listening to and see if it's any good... Did that with "The Invisibles" a lot. All my writing teachers told me my biggest flaw as a writer was using too many cultural references, but what the hell, I like them. Wear your influences on your sleeve, I say.
 
 
lyrebird
01:17 / 10.03.04
H'lo all! Googled this board while looking for info on Caitlin Kiernan (I'm doing a paper on her), but now I'm more curious about yr comments on Poppy Brite, a writer who interests me very much both by her work and as a person. Brite has explained time and again, in interviews and her livejournal, quite patiently it seems, that she is not the same person she was when she wrote her darker stories and she feels she would be doing something false/dishonest if she attempted to keep writing similar material only because some fans would prefer it. To me this indicates a greater respect for the reader than someone who churns out what she knows will sell. Would you have her write about characters she can no longer identify with just so -you- could identify with them? I wouldn't. Not only for her sake, but because under those conditions I don't think they could possibly be as good as the "non-normal" characters she wrote because she had to?

(Rickey and G-Man don't seem especially -normal- to me, though I don't think I'd mind if they were. I'm a self-described freak, indeedy, but everyone I read about need not be. I also like the new style...her old one was beautiful, but sometimes distracted me from what was going on in the story. Fans who do find her new characters hard to identify with might like "A Season in Heck" from her collection "THe Devil You Know." It's a Liquor story, but the main character Paul, though not as alienated as a Trevor or a Nothing, is endearingly unsure of himself, his sexuality, his place in the restaurant life. He might be a good "bridge" between the old work and the new.)

In her journal this week Brite reports that "Entertainment Weekly" is doing a feature on "Liquor." With this sort of press, it may be off the mark to predict that her new work will turn out being less lucrative than the old. I hope so, since I've enjoyed the new work so far and wish her well. If not, well, hasn't she already shown that she's not really about the bling-bling by declining to write that much desired "Lost Souls" sequel?

I do hope this won't be seen as inappropriate or troll-ish post. I know I tend to be wordy, but I really am curious to know yr feelings rather than inclined to argue with them. I also give Kiernan a very high rating, especially "Low Red Moon," which is her best novel yet by far IMO.

I will be dealing with comparisons between Brite and Kiernan in my paper and may quote some of these comments, also any replies to my post, but only if you give me permission.

Vanessa P.
 
 
--
02:31 / 10.03.04
Oh, PZB can do whatever types of stories she wishes...That doesn't mean I have to read them, however. Still, I'm glad she's being true to herself. I just don't really have an interest in reading about gay chefs in a realistic New Orleans. Having said that, my main problem with "The Value of X" was, compared with her old work, it just seemed very slight. Even if her old plots didn't hold up there was still lots of dazzling imagery, vivid descriptions and things of that nature. "Value of X" just felt very limp to me... And does she have to have gay main characters in every story she writes? Some diversity would be nice (I'm bisexual btw so there's nothing homophobic about that comment). Still, I'll probably give "Liquor" a chance, though my gut feeling already tells me I'll be disappointed.

Oh, what the fuck, screw artistic integrity. Bring back the homosexual necrophiliac pedophile serial killers already.
 
 
lyrebird
03:53 / 10.03.04
From the reviews and the opening chapter preview on her website, "Liquor" does sound a good bit more substantial, plot-wise, than "The Value of X." But yes, if you go into it expecting to be disappointed, you likely will be. Few good reads begin with the reader thinking, "I bet this is going to suck!" Personally, I felt that "The Value of X" was very much a character study/history, and plot was a bit beside the point. I recognize that many readers do not care for such stories, but on its own terms I found it well done, especially the boys' families, who weren't at all the stereotypical "demonic antigay" parents, and the older chef Rickey met in New York, whose name escapes me now...Cooper, I think?

The boys themselves seemed like characters who could use a bit more rounding out. They have since received it in the short stories she has published about them (I think "Bayou de la Mere" may be her single best piece of short fiction yet) and presumably in "Liquor". But I did like them and found them quite real.

I think she probably does have to have gay characters in every novel, or feels she does...if gay men weren't a vital motif for her, she surely would have moved away from them by now. I'm sure you are aware that she herself ID's as male (not too normal, there!).

What I'd like to know, and perhaps quote you on if possible, is this: if Brite did write another decadent/gothy/necrophiliac novel, and it was evident she no longer knew that scene or felt passionate about it, do you think you'd still enjoy it? Also, have you read anymore Caitlin Kiernan since yr 2/14 post, and if so, what did you think?
 
 
lyrebird
04:08 / 10.03.04
P.S. While addressing the subject of "gay main characters" in every Brite novel, I neglected to mention that several of her "Stubbs family" short stories don't, in fact, have gay protagonists. "The Heart of New Orleans" is about a doctor investigating the death of a little boy, as well as the grief of his parents. "The Feast of St. Rosalie" is about a heterosexual woman, the most convincing and sympathetic female character she's yet written about. She's mentioned an upcoming story about another of the Stubbs sisters. In this way, it could be argued that these characters have caused Brite to diversify considerably as a writer.

Thanks again for yr response!
 
 
lyrebird
04:35 / 10.03.04
BTW (my last post for tonight, I swear), though I am enthusiastic about Brite's recent material, I'm not at all trying to convince you that you "have to" like it. I hate fans of any artist who do that, and Brite has said herself that she doesn't want her readers telling people how they "should" like her...she just wants people to give the new work a fair chance and like or dislike it according to their own opinions. I simply find it interesting to discuss these things, and possibly helpful to my paper.

Now Caitlin Kiernan, -she- keeps a harsh blog...>
 
 
eddie thirteen
17:56 / 10.03.04
Hey, Lyre:

Yeah, I have to say that I haven't really been keeping up with PZB, and maybe her newest stuff will do more for me. I have to agree with Sypha and say that my problem with the post-Exquisite Corpse Poppy (and you can actually see it creeping into Exquisite Corpse a little) is not what *is* there, but what isn't. I read an interview with Poppy maybe two or three years ago where she seemed to feel a little dissed by horror fans; it's not an exact quote, but she said something along the lines of, "My gay readers never had any problems reading my horror. Why should my horror audience have such a problem with my gay fiction?" Which, um...kinda misses the point.

PZB's work has always been predominantly about gay men. Not being one myself, I was nonetheless drawn into her early work (and, for all of that, profoundly affected by it as a then very young writer) because of the way she wrote -- a very intense, evocative style -- and because of her attention to character. I could see and hear the people she was writing about (like...while I was reading the books, I mean); you got a strong sense of them (and their environment) as fully realized, as three-dimensional.

This is not the sense at all I've gotten from Brite's post-EC stuff. The style, once lush, now reads very slick to me, and I couldn't for the life of me name a single character in The Value of X, which I just barely recall reading. It's not the absence of horror (I read a lot of other things), though that probably doesn't help...like, I like Tim Burton, and I liked High Fidelity, but if Tim Burton had made High Fidelity (...whoa!), I'd probably be a little disappointed he hadn't made a Tim Burton movie instead...does that make sense? I honestly have no idea who directed High Fidelity, and it probably doesn't matter, because it's the kind of movie a lot of people could have made; not everyone can make Sleepy Hollow or Ed Wood, so to do something more mundane -- even more mundane but very good -- would seem like he was underperforming. Soooooo, getting back to PZB, part of it (for me) probably is the shift in subject matter away from something she put a unique stamp on to something less distinctive, but it's *also* that the less distinctive material just isn't (in her hands) all that captivating anyway. Frankly, regardless of subject matter, I don't think the writing itself is as good as it once was, and it could well be that genre fiction pushes her to certain effects (conscious of herself as a genre writer, and wanting to write above the pulp-fiction expectations people have for a horror novel) that she takes for granted when writing "mainstream" fiction. Or, I dunno, it could just be that she doesn't try as hard now. Whatever the case may be, I...

...I want my Poppy back...

...*sniff*
 
 
lyrebird
00:28 / 11.03.04
Thanks for yr post, Eddie. I guess it's a matter of apples and oranges. For me personally, I'd have to say that Brite is a far better writer without the bells and whistles of the ultra-lush style. Her new voice seems clear, direct, not at all bland to me. I like horror, but I'm not wedded to it as a reader. Also, while I am a young person, my friends and family have always accused me of being a little old lady at heart. As much as I liked "Lost Souls" and "Drawing Blood," I find myself more interested in where she will take the various members of the Stubbs family than I ever was in the younger, "angst-ier" adventures of Nothing and Zillah, or Trevor and Zach. Though not the lush fantasy city of the earlier novels, the New Orleans setting still seems exotic enough to me that I can't think of it as "mundane" at all. I also feel that her passion for this new work shines through at least as much as it did in the older stuff, maybe more, perhaps as a result of the "cleaner" style. Again, that's just me.

Have you read Caitlin Kiernan? If so, what do you think of her?
 
 
lyrebird
00:48 / 11.03.04
another question (I wish we could edit posts here, because I always think of something else right after I hit "post reply"): when you refer to Brite's post-EC stuff, what works are you refering to? The only ones I've really seen mentioned here are "The Lazarus Heart" (which while good, must surely be considered subject to "corporate" influence) and "The Value of X." While I liked "The Value of X," I've liked the Stubbs family short stories and the first chapter of "Liquor" much, much better. The story "Bayou de la Mere" especially I just found astounding. Curious to know what works "post-EC" encompasses for you.
 
 
--
02:15 / 11.03.04
Well, all I can really say about "value of X" is that I can't recall any line that really jumped out at me, which says something. I mean, Poppy's early books had tons of sentences that really shook me to the core, axed open the frozen sea inside of me, which is what a good book should do (to paraphrase one of my favorite Kafka quotes). My sole reaction to "value of X" was just "eh", and "eh" just isn't enough for me. Plus, I don't know, parts of it just seemed really corny and heavy-handed to me. I dunno.

If I seem harsh towards Poppy Z. Brite, it's only because she's one of my all-time favorite writers so I demand higher quality... And some writers are skilled at recycling the same themes over and over again in fresh new ways... Grant Morrison comes to mind.
 
 
eddie thirteen
02:45 / 11.03.04
Um, basically all of the above, plus Are You Loathsome Tonight? (most of which is just a blur to me, whereas the stories in Swamp Foetus/Wormwood -- which I read a looooong time ago -- still stand out quite clearly). I've missed some things, but I was sufficiently disheartened by what I had read that I was sorta waiting for her to write something with...well...obvious appeal (to me, I mean). Perhaps I'm just a glutton for punishment, but I probably will check out Liquor, because you've got me wondering and You Never Know....

The only novel of Caitlin Kiernan's I've read is Silk, which I liked very much. I read a little of her Dreaming comics series and was kinda eh about it, though she wrote a (vaguely) Sandman-related miniseries called something like The Girl Who Wanted to be Death (we're talking like '98 or something here, and about comics that have long since been lent out and never again seen) that I liked a whole lot. And yeah, I was tempted to check out her PZB collaboration (title escaping me here), but...well...yeah.
 
 
lyrebird
03:19 / 11.03.04
I fear I've not cared for Grant Morrison's work that I've read. My taste in comics runs more to the girly undergrounds.

Brite has said that she's uninterested in recycling her old themes or motifs even if that is what fans would prefer. Some fans take this as a slap...to me it seems respectful if anything. Now fans are beginning to criticize Caitlin Kiernan for moving away from the lush and hallucinogenic style of "Silk." Kiernan and Brite wouldn't be as interesting to me as student of their literature if they didn't seem so commited to the work they want/need to do, even if it costs them some of their old readers. I doubt it will have any effect to "demand" what you want from Brite, as this new work seems to give her great personal and professional satisfaction, and reflects the interests and realities of her own current life more than further goth/horror stories would. (She's no longer in the goth scene, so mightn't such stories seem artificial and sellout-y?) Eddie said he wants his Poppy back. While acknowledging his winky face, I'd also say that she has always been very much her own Poppy and isn't likely/possibly even able to write according to what anyone else wants. Kiernan seems similarly commited to her own vision so I imagine she will respond the same way when readers loyal to her old style/subjects urge her to return to them.

FWIW, there is a passage from "The Value of X" that jumped out at me very strongly when first I read it, filled my eyes with instant tears, this scene continues to have greater personal resonance for me than anything else Brite has written except possibly "Bayou de la Mere." It's too long to quote here but if yr interested, it's the final paragraph on page 100, which explains the title of the novel.
 
 
eddie thirteen
00:13 / 12.03.04
Actually, although PZB (from what I can tell) seems to be a bit of a fanciful autobiographer, my understanding from reading interviews in the wayyyyyyy back days is that she never considered herself a part of the goth scene. Obviously, when you write a book like Lost Souls, goths are going to claim you as one of their own, whether you want it or not (I've repeatedly discovered this for myself, on a much smaller scale). And, well, because I'm selfish and because I tend to be annoyed by a lot of goths myself (insert winky face here!), I'm not really concerned about club-going fans who just want her to write Lost Souls over and over and basically be a younger and hipper Anne Rice; those people have Nancy Collins and Laurel K. Hamilton and I'm sure any number of other writers to keep them happy, and will certainly survive somehow. And I think any writer should write what makes her/him happy, I just wish that...y'know...what made Poppy happy was a bit more like something that would make *me* happy. PZB wonders what a gay relationship between Paul McCartney and John Lennon would have been like; I myself do not. It's not any kind of revulsion toward the notion of guys being gay, or even brilliant and talented guys being gay, it's just a general lack of interest in the subject as a whole on my part. In the same way, I don't think a writer has any duty to his/her readers to keep within a writing style for an entire career, but I also don't see it as a failing on the part of the reader if, when the writer makes that jump, the reader doesn't want to follow.

I can certainly understand the bitterness Poppy's expressed in the past about the loss of much of her original audience, but at the same time - if writing is about what is produced, and not a cult of personality that will lead readers into whatever a favorite writer is doing now, regardless of interest in the subject matter (and I suspect PZB would agree with me that it's the former) -- I don't see why the shock would last all that long. If she is gaining a new audience, then cool; I can't help but feel a sense of something lost when I compare early work that is both precociously accomplished in its own right and at the same time promising for the future to stuff that...well...just hasn't grabbed me, but if she and it are successful, maybe that just means that we're simply no longer on the same page, which happens, and doesn't mean anything's wrong with either party.

Now, on the other hand, don't make me school you on why you should read Morrison....
 
 
--
01:10 / 12.03.04
I think what I miss is the sheer out-and-out transgressivness of her earlier work. Some of that shit really made my skin crawl. It literally made you felt dirty for reading it. I kinda miss that (fortunetly, there's always writers like Dennis Cooper or Peter Sotos who indulge in that sort of stuff).
 
 
eddie thirteen
04:21 / 12.03.04
For me, it really is the style and the characters -- not saying that I think she should keep writing those particular characters, mind you, but the kind of attention she paid them.

(Which is part of why I say that the problems -- problems In My Opinion! -- started with Exquisite Corpse; not only do you see the style getting blanker, but the characters themselves seem more like types than people, at least in comparison to what you find in PZB's first two novels. Though she's present for maybe forty pages of the whole book, a character as minor as Eddy from Drawing Blood feels more like a fully-realized creation to me than anyone in Exquisite Corpse.)

As far as the transgressiveness goes, PZB came up at a time when a whole lot of horror writers were pushing the envelope in rather extreme fashions, so I guess that never really grabbed me about her in particular. Though they're the ones who stuck in the popular imagination, people like Dennis Cooper and Bret Easton Ellis always struck me as slumming poseurs; there were certainly wayyyyy crazier (and more imaginative and talented) folk writing at the same time, though they were marginalized (ghettoized) as pop fiction writers. (I'm restricting my view of this to the early '90s, when PZB did the stuff we're talking about, and when Cooper got the most press...I don't hear anything about him anymore, and don't miss him.) Poppy, though, was just a good writer, genre labels aside, and even creepiness aside, but as far as I have seen, she no longer writes at all as she once did. Still, I'm glad that she does indeed have an audience who appreciates her for what she's up to presently, even if it's tended not to be my thing.
 
 
lyrebird
18:47 / 13.03.04
I want to thank everybody for yr interesting responses. I'm now trying to wean myself from spending so much time online and get to work in earnest on my paper, so I probably will not post here again for awhile, but it was fun!

Vanessa P.
 
  
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