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Why have success when you can have failure?

14:34 / 29.01.04

So. I'm coming up to my final exams, so the pressure's on with study. I started last week working on capital markets, which is a tough subject, and through 2 or 3 days of hard work I've gone from fairly clueless to just about adequate.

But I'm having trouble pushing it any further. I have another subject with an exam on Monday, and I'm already pretty much adequate on that one I think, so any further work I do will be in order to go from adequate to good or even excellent. And I'm facing a serious psychological blockage. It's like alarm bells are going off in my head saying "if you're not careful you may end up nailing it and getting a really good mark".

It's not that I've never suceeded, but I have a major issue with trying to succeed. I have this vain attitude that says that if success happens to land in my lap, then great, but to try and calculate for it is somehow wrong. So I'll happily read through handouts and textbooks to gain general knowledge of a subject, but when it comes to trying to learn something specifically in order to pass an exam, rather than for its own sake, I feel uncomfortable with it, which causes problems as you can imagine.

It's part of rich tapestry for me really covering all kinds of areas of life, but this example makes the absurdity of it particularly clear, as if there's any area where calculating for success is legitimate, it's study.

Does anyone else have similar problems? Just to know I'm not alone in this would be helpful. But any advice equally so. I'm quite suspicious of the whole self-help angle on these kinds of things, I'd rather talk about real experiences.

But also this thread is intended as a general discussion of how and why people sabotage their own happiness/success and what can be done about it.

16:07 / 29.01.04

there was athread like this before...
can't remember what it was called, though.

oh, and check your summary for a freudian slip.

03:02 / 30.01.04

sorry, i seem to have killed that...
there are a few kindred souls about the place, though.
i for one seem to fear success on occasion.

05:41 / 30.01.04

One reason is that success can alienate you from the people you care about. If you set your standards higher then your peer group, you start to become harder on them as well as yourself. Sometimes, this can lead to them reacting negatively to your endeavors, since they're worried that they'll lose their connection to you. Or, you might find yourself trying just enough to get by, but not hard enough to accomplish your goals.

I think the best defense against this is to focus on tolerance, and the fact that your goals don't necessarily have to be everyone else's goals.

08:10 / 30.01.04

I don't think that your experience is that unusual, 40%. I certainly recognise this sabotage instinct.

I heard some anthropologist talking about the obesity epidemic recently. She was suggesting that part of the problem was that in post-scarcity cultures we have 'forgotten' that the human body is meant to run hungry. We now mistake any sign of hunger for something that needs to be satiated. Similarly, perhaps, the drive to put ourselves in jeopardy is a reaction to an 'unnatural' degree of success, security etc. Maybe we invent obstacles and contrive failures because on a more basic level we cleave to struggle somehow. Does that ring true with what your 'alarm bells' seem to be signaling?

10:24 / 30.01.04

Yeah those are both good theories.

The thing about cleaving to struggle definitely rings true. Sometimes I think about how it would be quite possible to live life without any obvious problems, and something in me doesn't want that. I like to view my life as a great struggle sometimes, even though in the scheme of things, it isn't.

I've given this a lot of thought over the last 24 hours, and discussed with friends and family. I think it mainly comes down to self-esteem/self-image. I have a housemate who, when he is presented with a problem, cannot seem to quit until he has solved it. I wanted to know where he gets this drive, and if it is available in liquid form. He says the reason he keeps trying is because he knows he can do it, and so he wants to do it, for himself. For me, knowing I can do something doesn't seem to be enough. When I look inside myself, I can't seem to find that killer instinct that will go for it and achieve what I know I can. But I realise it does have to come from myself.

The other issue is blatantly to do with family history. For a lot of my life I've had a feeling that whenever I want something, the answer is likely to be no. Regardless of the nature of the request, I feel that people are going to want to stand in my way and deny me wherever possible. So when it comes to thinking about getting a first in my degree, my subconscious thinking seems to go "there's no way that will be allowed to happen. People are not going to allow something that good to get into your hands. Someone will veto it along the way and make sure of that". Again, this may be a reflection of needing to create this idea of a grand struggle in my life where there really isn't one.

This tends to be true for me even down to little things. I even tend to think that people are unlikely to reply to my threads, regardless of their merit. I tend to feel that because I want something, somehow it's bound to end up not happening.

I'd be open to any psychological insights into this from a family point of view, no matter how rude or personal. I would like to make sense of it.

21:57 / 31.01.04

Well it's quite late, and I'm not sure I'm right, but it seems to totally depend on how you define " people's best interests. " Do you mean their's personally, or just society's in general, as per their position ? Often the two are completely different. For example, you could be an accountant at... wherever, wherever, your family's proud and you're earning good money, but you need x pints to get to sleep in the evening, feel sad and alone on the tube in the morning, would genuinely like to burn the f-ing place down. But your family's proud and you're earning good money... In who's interests, exactly, would it be if you stayed on ? It's a hypothetical situation, but often the urge to kind of self-destruct totally isn't really so bad. If not now then it's probably later, d'you know what I mean ? If I were you, I'd just sit down quietly for a couple of evenings, decide what you want and what the price tag, existentially, is likely to be, and if it doesn't seem too much, go for that thing. But feel free to ignore, and good luck, anyway, in yer bleeding exams

22:33 / 31.01.04

I'm not really sure, Alex. I meant primarily people's own best interests, rather than the impact on people around. But your example shows how determining what is your own best interest can be difficult. All I know is that I have not come across a situation for myself which was that difficult to determine. Generally I know what's best very well, but just have difficulty making it materialise.

often the urge to kind of self-destruct totally isn't really so bad. If not now then it's probably later, d'you know what I mean ? If I were you, I'd just sit down quietly for a couple of evenings, decide what you want and what the price tag, existentially, is likely to be, and if it doesn't seem too much, go for that thing.

That made me smile. I like your way of thinking. It's exactly the kind of wisdom that I need more of in my life.

03:06 / 01.02.04

I must admit I'm not sure what you mean, 40%, by a family point of view. Yet that we are both percentages makes me feel endeared towards you, and that I've had a long history of depression makes me think I have a different perspective on this, so I'm going to try anyway.

Success is a damn scary thing because quite simply it means work. Not only do you have to work to get success (unless, as you said, it falls into your lap), but achieving it means even more work. For example: say you work very hard and land some stellar job. Awesome. Handjobs all around. But then you've got the job, and you have to DO the job, and all sorts of anxieties set in like "Can I actually do this job?" and "Now everyone expects so much of me!" That's terrifying!

The only way depression factors in is that I've found happiness is like success. Everyone says they want it, but being unhappy or unsuccessful is much easier. No work, and people feel bad for you. Not that any of this process is conscious, of course..

10:20 / 01.02.04

Greetings, fellow percentage.

Re. family perspective, what I mean is that I see this "people are bound to say no to me/deny me what I want" syndrome as firmly linked to childhood experiences, although my memories of childhood are not that clear. So I'm just thinking about any insights into how your experience of relating to parents affects your experience of relating to others later in life, any ways of rooting out the psychological issues that cause this.

However, thinking it about it, it's likely that I already know these things, but just need to find ways of dredging them up. And perhaps, although I want people's help, I can't really expect people to be able to advise properly without going into very personal details, which I don't feel inclined to do. So don't worry too much about that one.

I'm sorry to hear you've suffered with depression, 5%. That's a bitch. I think it's definitely easy to create a persona where people like to be around you because they are able to feel strong in comparison, by offering you help. But it's deadly to your own sense of self. If having others in your life is only possible by always being seen as 'the one with the problems', then, to use Alex's words, the price tag, existentially, is too high. It's important that you always have equal status in relating to other people.

12:56 / 01.02.04

For me, knowing I can do something doesn't seem to be enough.

maybe when you know you can do something, your telling yourself that you actually have done it, in a way.
no point in proving a theory you already know to be true. not unless its to show someone else.

it's likely that I already know these things, but just need to find ways of dredging them up.

and possibly that is related to this whole self esteem driven(inmyhumbleopinion) issue. you cannot possibly be succesful, because then what would you say if someone asked you how you did? you would have to say "exceptionally well", and how arrogant is that? i mean, going round telling everyone you got a brilliant degree and your going to be earning a fabulous wage... who do you think you are?
similarly maybe you have an issue with thinking up these things, because then someone might thnk you were showing off how self aware you are.

a giveaway would be if you feel uncomfortable being told you are good at something, told you are loved or lauded generally(especially if you would say the same sorts of thing to others).

15:06 / 01.02.04

similarly maybe you have an issue with thinking up these things, because then someone might thnk you were showing off how self aware you are.

Could you clarify, Toksik? Thinking up which things?

a giveaway would be if you feel uncomfortable being told you are good at something, told you are loved or lauded generally(especially if you would say the same sorts of thing to others).

Well you've got me there. But sorry, what does it give away? The fact that I really am, in fact, afraid of success? Or the fact that I have low self-esteem?

16:38 / 01.02.04

I'm sorry to hear you've suffered with depression, 5%.

Ah, well, thank you. I'm fine, been on the right drugs for the past--wow, seven years. It's helped tremendously.

I have some homework I need to be doing myself actually and I'm avoiding it like crazy. Personally I need the pressure of 'the last minute' to motivate me, which is not, I don't think, related to a fear of success but a feeling of 'why do this now when I can do it later?' But that's not entirely relevant. I think Toksik has the right idea about this being a self-esteem issue. And maybe you like the melodrama of seeing everyone as against you? I suggest that gently, though.