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Misogyny in sci-fi

 
 
Rage
13:58 / 18.01.04
So I'm finally reading Stranger in a Strange Land, and that guy Jubal (are we supposed to like him?) is sure a misogynist pig!

The book Software by Rudy Rucker: total misogynist bullshit.

The majority of female characters in anything by PDK: total misogynist bullshit.

Thing is, I really like both of these authors. It just seems like neither of them ever had a decent conversation with a woman. I understand that male sci-fi authors can't get laid, but I see no reason why they can't meet any females to discuss alternate realities with.

Is misogyny in sci-fi a thing of the past? (now that we've got the internet we know that intelligent geek girls actually do exist) Is there a connection between misogyny and sci-fi novels? Is misogyny more prominent in sci-fi than other literary genres?
 
 
macrophage
15:38 / 18.01.04
With gender divisions - the sexual division thing, you'll never be able to conquer the one's and zero's though you can TRY. Robert Heinlein and PKD both belong to the last century full stop. I haven't read any Rudy Rucker fiction sorry - no comment! Wasn't Heinlein a chum in the chummy semantics boy's club that coexisted with Scientology, I'm thinking Brian Aldiss and that?! Heinlein - great influence on Uncle Charlie wasn't he??? (I meaan Charles Mille Manson) As fer PKD - one small step fer dogfood, another giant step fer amphetamines!!!!!!
 
 
Tamayyurt
16:21 / 18.01.04
I have no idea what macrophage is talking about but I do totally agree with, "Robert Heinlein and PKD both belong to the last century full stop."

People like Issac Asimov honestly admit that his knowleged of women is extremely limited and it wasn't til he met/started dating his wife that he actually looked at his female characters and tried to make them more realistic. I think this is very telling of a lot of the early sci-fi writers of the 20th century.
 
 
Lurid Archive
16:51 / 18.01.04
I'm not sure how well this addresses or diffuses the charge of misogyny, or how well it generalises to other writers, but I've always thought that the only characters that were written convincingly by Asimov were the robots. Its charming, in a way.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
20:04 / 18.01.04
A lot of Sci-Fi is by men- and so we're likely to see a mainly male orientated universe. I mean, come on? Dune? Big battles between tribes living in the desert? With the occassional giant worm popping up for good measure?
Plus, thinking about the roots of sci fi, it really hit it's stride when we were thinking about conquering other planets, penetrating the universe, using big, loud machines that look like cocks.
Of course, we have Ursula Leguin to set the record straight, and hopefully in the future we will have more female writers.
 
 
Bed Head
22:50 / 18.01.04
Yeah! Some guy should write a science-fiction novel about a post-apocalyptic future ruled by female science-fiction writers. That’d rock.


Rage, seriously, why don't you write a science fiction novel? It wouldn't take long.
 
 
+#'s, - names
06:33 / 19.01.04
Yeah, I have to agree with you there Macrophage, Heinlein was wrong for writing Stranger in a Strange Land and letting Charles Will is Man's Son get his head filled with garbage. He would have turned out ok without that book. Same with the Beatles. We should actually all get together and burn the white album.
 
 
Keith
07:02 / 19.01.04
The Dune books tried to show strong female characters: The Bene Gesserit, Jady Jessica, Chani, Ghanima, Irulan etc... but I suppose (using the old 'written years ago' excuse) they tended to fall into the usual stereotypes: BG, Jessica, Irulan, Alia - scheming bitches; Chani, Ghani - sidekick/love interest/damsel in distress. Doesn't take away from the greatness of the books much, though as most of the male characters are bastards too.
 
 
_Boboss
08:22 / 19.01.04
i reckon it might be worth mentioning tricia sullivan's latest, maul right about now. i think that this is a good modern chicky sf book, let down only very slightly by the logan's-run rollerballyness in the last few pages. but still i kinda appreciate why she did it: that 7os/studio-bound sf is still sf i suppose and worthy of a little revival. just didn't fit the tone of the rest of the novel. that's tricia sullivan's maul and it ain't no misogynistic sf
 
 
sumo
08:30 / 19.01.04
I don't think it's necessary to dismiss as stereotypes the female characters in Dune or any of its sequels -- particularly not as "scheming bitches". Remember the Fish Speakers?

To my adolescent mind, after having borne years of Asimov-style misogynism, Frank Herbert seemed to have written some of sci-fi's most compelling female characters.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
12:24 / 19.01.04
It's not like PKD's male characters are all three dimensional creatures of infinite wisdom either...
 
 
Tamayyurt
15:09 / 19.01.04
True, but they tend to be more human than his female characters.

Also, I'd like to bring up Octavia Butler as a fantastic female sci-fi writer.

And I'd love to see Rage write a sci-fi novel... I'm sure it'll be crazy fun.
 
 
rizla mission
15:33 / 19.01.04
I've never found Philip K. Dick's books to be very misogynistic.. I'd be interested to hear the case being put forward for that view though..

He does almost always write from a male perspective, and his protagonists tend to be men who are having problems with their wives and contemplating affairs or something similar, but y'know, I guess he obviously believed in 'write what you know'.. the same could be said of millions of writers. It comes across as a lot more honest than certain other male writers who go out of their way to try and write from a female perspective, with frequently cringeworthy and less than convincing results.

All the characters in his books tend to be confused, weak and self-centred regardless of gender, and both 'We Can Build You' and 'Flow My Tears..' spring to mind as books which feature well developed female characters in pivotal roles.. women in PKD books are certainly more realistically and sympathetically portrayed than in the work of most other male Sci-Fi writers of the same period..
 
 
dlotemp
17:22 / 19.01.04
Also, it should be noted that PKD was deeply affected by the accidental death of his twin sister. His mother apparently caused the accident. Dick has commented that thinking about his sister illicted some his fractured reality stories or feelings of unreality: is he standing in for his sister's life, what does he owe his sister, etc. I seem to recall rumors of marital discord among the parental Dicks but take that with a grain of salt. Dick did have terrible personal relationships with women - he had five wives. So any misogyny is probably an outgrowth of several divorces, and possibly some conflicting emotions left over from his sister's death.

The "Ye Olde Days" notion, that misogyny slipped in because male writer's were woefully non-progressive, is a convenient shorthand for looking back on those stories but I think it's safe to say that misogyny thrives under many social environments. Just the other day, my wife received an advert in the mail for a sci-fi book club that noticably had two slightly clad warrior women on the cover. So looking back and seeing misogyny isn't surprising. You should probably take those stories in a better context and look at some of the other work being published at that time and their portrayal of women.

I'd like to note that some intriguing female sci-fi characters are Una Persson and Jerry Cornelius' sister from the Jerry Cornelius cycle. They fill out all the stereotypes and then build a few new ones.
 
 
Never or Now!
03:44 / 20.01.04
"So I'm finally reading Stranger in a Strange Land, and that guy Jubal (are we supposed to like him?) is sure a misogynist pig!"

Yeah but it's a very affected misogyny - he's basically role-playing the part of Cynical Old-Fashioned Man's Man. But notice the way that when he pushes it too far the women chuck him in the swimming pool, while he begs them not to: he's not really on such a big power-trip as he makes out. And a big part of the story is about Jubal dropping this whole act anyway.
 
 
Rage
05:11 / 20.01.04
...
I'm not trying to make you smile, and I ask that you abort this reading if you're looking for emoticons. At 15 the entire world thinks you're a newbie. Forget about being the founding member of the Memetic Mayhem Map, you get about as much respect as a DJ on a major website label. Nilio. You walk into your local message board and everything asks you for ID. Don't have your birthdate code altered? Get accused of being a Teeny Troll and watch as the TP storms after you with their megaphones. "We are the Troll Police! We're here to keep the peace! We are the Troll Police! We're here to wipe the grease!" This goes on for about an hour before you feel an unstoppable urge to shoot rubber bullets at their userpics. Self defense, we know. Those assholes have been trying to reclaim the chaoweb since the launching of the Fractal Age, but what they refer to as "guerrilla tactics" are merely chants of the decaying RPG breed, cyber-mantras long gone since all-things-RPG became all-things-IRL. Ancient history of the future.

Besides, they never claimed the chaoweb in the first place. That was us. Trolls, dissidents, portions of the homo erectus nexus, even some of the pomo superiors. 'Evolutionary Misfits', our world wide band was called. The TP rebellion was laughable, and I say this as four of my parents edit themselves silly in the name of "wiping the grease." Looks like a case of abort-o-port, but so does the world when you stare at it long enough.

Other days? The world looks like a file on the brink of corrupting itself, waiting for something: anything: to give it the signal. (whose signal? what signal?) The signal never arrives, yet the entire Roof orbits the planet of holy hype. More bizarre than normality, be your own godbot, diverge from the urge, shoot up the anti-codes, whatever. Endless slogans going nowhere but the planet we came to in the first place. The planet we discovered after the legendary Earth was destroyed by the original eco-punks. Welcome to planet Roof. We raise it higher than your controversial opinions on DNA destruction. For or against, the MMM is jaded, and when you're 15 and jaded the entire world thinks you're a newbie.

Eco-punk revival is an annoying trend that's been going on since 2030. Kids who weren't even born when the eco-punks destroyed the Earth wear gas masks to school and chant about blowing up societal hardware. Fractalized lemmings. The planet as a program that needs to be deleted, the virtual interface of disease, technology of mindless chatrooms, etc. etc. etc. It's amazing how they don't realize it was all said a hundred times better before Earth was destroyed. Before the human race became extinct: before we, the robosapeins, migrated to the Roof. Before the Fractal Age. Those neo-eco-punks? They're still up for a revolution that happened 50 years ago, clinging to a nostalgia that was founded on the destruction-breeds-creation of some shitty planet.

Sometimes I'll catch 3 or 4 of my parents reminiscing about Earth, and I've gotta say it sounds like a drag. They talk about that Burning Man festival like it was the reason Earth existed in the first place, and I've gotta wonder if they missed out on real eco-punk. We, the MMM, are the true hardware. Authentic 5.0, but without the upgrade hassle. Articulate gene tricksters, though sometimes a bit obnoxious to the robosapeins who still believe in memepoints. Take Santa Claus and crucify him with a memory chip. Fuck your memepoints and your Troll Police (we are the grease and we're cleaning you) and your chaos theory mochas. We'll burn your paradigm shifting khakis and delete your websites before you can log onto your carbon cut opinions of DNA destruction. Oh ya, and we wear subversive clothing.

Liver, youngest member of the MMM at 11, has some fucked up friends. Last night he brought over this TP counter-agent called Yoyo. You should have seen the girl! She ranted for 5 hours about her superior infiltration skills (hardly) and the teck-knowledge-sea ("the little fishes must be deleted") catering to the lowest common reprogrammer. She even gave us that old "we are the pomo superior" rhetoric that made us want to vomit code. This morning we confronted Liver about not-bringing-people-like-this-over, and he took it as an insult against his personality software. "I hate you guys!" he screamed at us, his enter key inflamed with art golems the size of the entire Roof. "Fuck the MMM! You don't like my friends? Then I don't like you!"

We've been seeing demons for the past 4 hours, and we can only assume they're part of the chaoweb. These pseudo-monsters aren't even trying to reprogram us. (let alone delete) They're actually kind of cute, looking all gene trickster with their belly button goggles. The thing about Liver is that his golems end up making us want to party. Maybe it's just an age thing. Maybe we're just a bunch of newbies. Maybe the MMM is just a modern day copy of the eco-punk file. There are times when I wonder if it was all worth it: if we should have stayed on the splinternet with the robosheep on the Roof. You know, the masses.
...

Got really sick of writing it. I'm always hopping from one thing to another: shit gets boring after a while. Maybe I could do a book of short stories, though.
 
 
Bed Head
07:21 / 20.01.04
Write one every day. They’ll join up if at any point you start wanting them to. Again, why not?
 
 
Ria
09:37 / 20.01.04
er, Chris, your post reads as if you formulated opinions based on really outdated information and reference to a small data pool. Dune came out in the 1960's and LeGuin started publishing in the late '50's, early '60's. (I know offhand her first published short story, "April in Paris", just clueless as to where.) a lot of this thread seems dependent on referring to older books and not to the newer stuff. which I can't speak to... I do not read much prose fiction any more and lost touch with sf as of the mid-'90's.
 
 
_Boboss
09:40 / 20.01.04
quite. anyone actually interested in viewing the state of misogyny in sf at the mo should probably type 'feminist sf' into google and see how much else there is to talk about. you'll be there for days.
 
  
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