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Artistic creations by people who hold beliefs you disagree with.

 
  

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rakehell
03:38 / 13.01.04
From the thread about essential albums:

Cop Killer: Why do people keep saying that Burzum is essential black metal despite that fact that Burzum:
1. Sucks horribly, is godawful and has no redeeming musical qualities.
2. Is an outlet for a Nazi prick.
Promoting Burzum is akin to promoting Skrewdriver, they're both not very good bands that happen to be Nazis.

(I would suggest that
Me: Some would say that the point of black metal is to not be very good and others would add that you have to hold fairly extreme views.

Cop Killer: Well, Rakehell, I do believe that Emperor is, in fact, a very good and talented band that is true Norweigian Black Metal, and they also happen to not be Nazi pricks like Varg Vikernes is. I'd like to think that Barbelith would rather not be promoting utter shit put out by Nazi murderers.

Rizla: Although to take up rakehell's point, to a lot of black metal people, sounding hideous and unlistenable and claiming to hold absurdly extreme views is kind of the point.

Cop Killer: The same thing could be said about punk rock in a defense to claiming something like Boots 'N' Braces by Skrewdriver to be an essential album. Holding ridiculous views may be a point of black metal, to some, but that does not mean that a blind eye should be turned to a very calculated Nazi viewpoint that Varg Vikernes (the only person in Burzum) holds, which, essentially, makes Burzum a Nazi band. And why is being a Nazi only "absurdly extreme" if the person hold the belief is metal, no one says that about Nazi punks. Nazis are Nazis and they fucking suck, end of story. And Burzum fucking suck anyway.

* * *

Some additional relevant material can be found in Sypha Nadon's excellent post about Peter Sotos.

So, do the beliefs of band members make a difference to the music you buy or listen to? If Burzum didn't "fucking suck", if they were in fact the best band in the world, would this make a difference?

Does buying the music somehow validate or reinforce the band's beliefs? Or can artistic output be kept separate from the beliefs and lifestyle of the creators.

(I would suggest that if this thread strays into literature, painting or other art, a mod moves it to the Head Shop or Conversation.)
 
 
lord nuneaton savage
11:20 / 13.01.04
I would suggest it's down to personal taste. Hell if I had to validate the beliefs held by all of the artists I admire I would have a very small record collection. I wouldn't own any Stones (misogynist) Marley (homophobic) or Whitehouse (you name it). I draw the line at Nazis but I do own quite a lot of streetpunk stuff made by people I know nothing about, who's opinions would probably horrify me. It's a fascinating topic though and I look forward to seeing what others have to say.
 
 
rizla mission
12:06 / 13.01.04
It is a tough one isn't it..

I think you've got to look at things on a subjective, personal level really.. I don't think there thought be any strict rules on the matter of what is/isn't acceptable listening..

And no, I don't think I'd go out of my way to listen to Burzum, as Varg Vickarnes is a violent self proclaimed white supremacist who uses his music to raise money which goes toward propagating his beliefs via some weird organisation he's set up, and is generally crazy and repulsive in every single way. So - I don't intend on buying/listening to music made by card-carrying murderous nazis. That's that one sorted out.

But the unsavoury connections of Black Metal don't end there - it's not a case of saying "he's a nazi, but those other guys are ok" - violent misanthropism and extreme beliefs are a big part of the whole thing - read any issue of Terrorizer and you're likely to find an interview with some corpse-painted so-and-so carrying on about how he's "superior to the human scum" or whatever, and mostly that kind of persona is just a matter of staying consistent with the tone of the music (I always end up puzzled by these metal bands who endlessly make music dedicated to violence, hatred and pain and then are sure to reassure everybody that they're really a nice, happy bunch of chaps). It goes with the territory to some extent.

I first got interested in black metal last year for, well, anthropological reasons I suppose.. just morbid fascination with these crazy guys who listened to all that Venom and Slayer stuff and *took it seriously* .. listening to the music is definitely a forbidden thrill.. just this incredibly intense noise made by these guys who geniunely despise modernity and want to be merciless viking killers striding through the dark forests blah blah blah.. it's quite something. It really transcends it's origins in trashy heavy metal and connects with the darkest aspects of the German romantic tradition, with an atmosphere of negativity and decay and isolation that I find a lot more convincing than any music that's emerged from the goth scene.. but you've also got to deal with the ideological implications of this tradition (think Wagner, "Romantic Nationalism", the romantic notions behind Nazism), and of course the whole thing is just an absurd and potentially dangerous pretention when it expands beyond the artistic realm into actual life.. which unfortunately it did, in 1993-94 (I won't bother recapping the details, I'm sure you can look them up if you're unfamiliar with the whole thing).

So, basically, I've grown to really like the music and aesthetic of Darkthrone, Emperor, Abruptum etc. None of them are avowedly nazi bands of course. As in other musical genres, openly racist/fascistic metal bands have an incredibly hard time getting anywhere, as their beliefs deny them access to the vast majority of potential listeners, record labels, shops etc. - and rightly so of course!
But what with the inevitable concentration on dark and unpleasant subject matter in metal, there are some huge, huge grey areas, and I still feel some ethical uncertainty about liking it..

For instance: consulting my 'Guide to Extreme Metal' (every home should have one!), I discover that Emperor's original drummer (Faust) has spent most of the last decade in prison for murdering a gay man who tried to proposition him. For fairly obvious reasons he hasn't played on the band's records and to my knowledge has contributed next to nothing to their music, but nevertheless it appears he's still on good terms with his bandmates and has written some (not obviously objectionable) lyrics for their (sensitively named) side project band, Zyklon. A metal magazine recently ran a brief telephone interview with him, making no mention of his crime.
Now, I mean, these days the Emperor/Zyklon guys seem fairly chilled out sort of dudes. They don't do maniac publicity stunts, they do interviews where they talk about things in a pretty reasonable manner and disassociate themselves from fascism and violence, they make good music and it gets good reviews and sells pretty well.. but stuff like the thing with the drummer makes you wonder.. I'm sure if he'd worked in any other musical scene, it would have completely disowned him, but the black metal world doesn't seem all that bothered that he stabbed a guy to death..


So my conclusion? I'm prepared to give them the benefit of the doubt. Just, well, just beacuse. Listening to music made by people who are channeling extreme emotions and ideas is paret of the appeal and, many would say, the entire point, and I think the same argument used by reggae fans regarding homophobia in dancehall applies (despite the fact that, as I'll again remind you, the music in question here is rarely ever actively objectionable in political terms): it has to be looked at in context, and for better or worse, immersing yourself in the context that created these mad neo-pagan goth-viking warriors with electric guitars is kind of fascinating..
 
 
.
12:33 / 13.01.04
I think an interesting point that can be drawn out of Rizla's discussion of Black Metal above is that music (or at least rock, metal, hip-hop etc.) has a unique position in the world of art, in as much as it is automatically assumed that a music artist's work represents their views. Somehow music is supposed to be about the truthfulness of the artist's message, and the authenticity of their performance, in a way that theatre, film, etc. are not. Obviously this becomes troubling when listening to "nazi" Black Metal in a way that watching say, I dunno, a film about serial killers wouldn't be. Perhaps if we viewed music more like the other arts, ie. an exploration of a particular set of views that doesn't necessarily represent the artist's views, then we could listen to Black Metal guilt free.

Of course this doesn't negate the fact that Skrewdriver (et al) are indeed a bunch of unpleasant nazi thugs.
 
 
Pingle!Pop
13:03 / 13.01.04
Ah, I was wondering about starting this thread based on the posts re: Burzum. But then I wouldn't have ever actually got round to doing so...

Not too much time to post now, but just a few points about what distinctions one should make based on this:

And no, I don't think I'd go out of my way to listen to Burzum, as Varg Vickarnes is a violent self proclaimed white supremacist who uses his music to raise money which goes toward propagating his beliefs via some weird organisation he's set up, and is generally crazy and repulsive in every single way.

So... would you buy music (if you appreciated it artistically) made by:

a) An artist/band who use(s) the profits from their music in order to promote Nazi ideals, in which case the £10 you pay for a CD is pretty much directly funding their cause? (Burzum, it would seem, from what is said here)
b) An artist/band who promote(s) a Nazi viewpoint through their music? (Skrewdriver)
c) An artist/band who hold(s) rather dodgy Nazi viewpoints, but who keep it completely separate from their music? (Joy Division?)

If you wouldn't buy the music, what about listening to it? Or downloading/copying it?

There's plenty more to write here, but... w*rk to (re)do...
 
 
diz
13:22 / 13.01.04
this issue comes up a lot with a lot of the apocalyptic folk and experimental/surrealist musicians loosely associated with World Serpent distribution, the big names of which include Current 93, Coil, Nurse With Wound, Sol Invictus, NON/Boyd Rice, and especially Death in June. many of the people involved have used Nazi imagery before. however, while some seem more interested in using it in either a more mystical/mythic way (C93) or in a more fetishy way (Coil), some are more interested in questionable aspects of the whole thing.

Douglas Pierce of Death in June, in particular, is a fascist, though he's been a bit coy about actually putting the words "i am a fascist" together in that order in a sentence. however, he seems to have focused most of his attention on the Nazi movement pre-Night of the Long Knives, seeing in the street-fighting stormtroopers of the SA the sort of muscular, homoerotic, militaristic brotherhood he's so enamored with. he does also veer disturbingly into Holocaust denial and other such wholesome intellectual pastimes. he's also obsessed with Yukio Mishima, but so are any number of people who are into Japanese literature. taken as a whole, he definitely crosses the line for me, but i'm not entirely sure where exactly the line is. Holocaust denial is clearly over the line, fetishy adoration of homosexual male paramilitaries and obsession with extreme right-wing literary figures is, to me, clearly not.

as a result, i'm never sure where to put him. i know a lot of Barbelith people are vehemently against DiJ, but, to me, it's a sliding scale. i think that the homoerotic appeal of fascism is a fascinating topic with a lot of ground to explore, and i think DiJ are squarely situated in the middle of that territory.

however, at the same time, they don't have the ironic/critical distance from the topic that others do, and as a result i'm uncomfortable. however, i also have to question my own discomfort here. i would be totally (well, mostly) comfortable with a fetishy/ironic/whatever use of Nazi imagery... basically, a safely "artsy" one. but, really, how much rationalizing bourgeois bullshit is that on my part? if someone wants to pose on their album cover dressed in a Nazi uniform flogging someone, it's OK, but if they don't really really mean it? you can be into Nazis within the safe, approved confines of a gallery space or if you dress it up with enough PoMo lit-crit theorybabble to appease the anxious artsy liberal in me? what a crock of shit. i'm such a fucking poseur.

i'm not sure if that's how i feel overall. sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. my desires are contradictory here. i want bold art that challenges my beliefs and explores uncomfortable, transgressive, or taboo topics, but i don't want to actually be uncomfortable or feel like i'm doing something immoral by listening to a CD. i can't have it both ways, but i keep straddling the line. i know and sympathize with people on both sides of that line, but i can't stay on one side or the other.
 
 
+#'s, - names
17:53 / 13.01.04
Spandau Ballet took their name from a Nazi guard term for the contortions of Jewish prisoners being gassed to death. There was a large gas chamber in the city of Spandau.

I will never listen to the song True in the same way again.
Pfffffffffffffffffffff.
 
 
rizla mission
18:21 / 13.01.04
I thought Spandeau Ballet was a reference to a prison or something?

So... would you buy music (if you appreciated it artistically) made by:

a) An artist/band who use(s) the profits from their music in order to promote Nazi ideals, in which case the £10 you pay for a CD is pretty much directly funding their cause? (Burzum, it would seem, from what is said here)
b) An artist/band who promote(s) a Nazi viewpoint through their music? (Skrewdriver)
c) An artist/band who hold(s) rather dodgy Nazi viewpoints, but who keep it completely separate from their music? (Joy Division?)

If you wouldn't buy the music, what about listening to it? Or downloading/copying it?


Basically, a. and b. are out of the question, c. is proably best decided on a case by case basis..

..hang on a minute, what's the scoop on Joy Division's 'dodgy viewpoints'?
 
 
+#'s, - names
18:44 / 13.01.04
..hang on a minute, what's the scoop on Joy Division's 'dodgy viewpoints'
Fascination with things like Hitler jugend? and singing about being nice to Rudolf Hess, and having a band name that some could take as mocking to female POW's pimped out to nazi officers.
Plus, they all hate Nazi haircuts.
Love them tho, one of my all time faves.
Downloaded some skrewdriver tracks to see what all the fuss was about, can't believe people like this crap. Just really bland rock and roll.
 
 
lord nuneaton savage
21:35 / 13.01.04
Ian Curtis was a Tory with some dodgy fascinations. That makes him a plonker not a Nazi.
 
 
+#'s, - names
22:05 / 13.01.04
whats a plonker?
 
 
Cop Killer
01:30 / 14.01.04
I think an interesting point that can be drawn out of Rizla's discussion of Black Metal above is that music (or at least rock, metal, hip-hop etc.) has a unique position in the world of art, in as much as it is automatically assumed that a music artist's work represents their views. Somehow music is supposed to be about the truthfulness of the artist's message, and the authenticity of their performance, in a way that theatre, film, etc. are not. Obviously this becomes troubling when listening to "nazi" Black Metal in a way that watching say, I dunno, a film about serial killers wouldn't be. Perhaps if we viewed music more like the other arts, ie. an exploration of a particular set of views that doesn't necessarily represent the artist's views, then we could listen to Black Metal guilt free.


Actually, that's the whole thing behind the song "One In A Million" by Guns 'N' Roses, it's art, not the actual belief of the songwriter, at least according to Axl Rose and company. No one ever thinks that the Ramones are nazis despite all of the nazi imageary in a lot of their earlier work. And then there was Sid Vicious's swastika shirt, but people tend not to think that the Sex Pistols were fascists, same goes with Souxie Soux and her nazi armbands. Ian Curtis killed himself so I don't think the money I spend on a Joy Division cd will be going towards any sort of dodgy political movement. But, with outwardly white supremist bands the money has no other place to go than to support dodgy political movements because the only people that put out the music and distribute it are involved directly with said dodginess. When buying Burzum the money goes to Varg Vikernes and his neo-nazi propaghanda. Buying Skrewdriver, even though Ian Stuart is dead now, still means that you have to buy it from a white power label and distributor. Personal beliefs of artists can never really be known for sure, and I don't really care about them unless they start using their music for propaghanda purposes, which usually turns to disaster anyway (most outspoken leftist bands, it must be said, do kind of suck, oh sure, there's good ones, but there's also good right wing bands too). Ted Nugent is ardently right wing, and I don't agree with much of anything he says, but I still dig his music because it really has nothing to do with it. Buying his music basically means that deer will get killed and I'm not a vegan so I don't care about that, and no one really cares that much about what he has to say because he's really not that bright and can't say it that well anyway, so most of it doesn't make much sense. Promoting his music is not promoting his beliefs, which is starkly different than promoting Skrewdriver or Burzum because their music is about their beliefs and buying it supports groups that hold similar beliefs making it easier and easier for them to get their message out.
 
 
rakehell
03:19 / 14.01.04
But what about the instance when you're recommending black metal to the complete novice?

You have to admit that Varg was instrumental in a lot of the notoriety and infamy which came at the start of the movement, and indeed can be attributed to at least some of the movements longevity because there will always be someone saying to someone else, "no, for real, the dude killed the other dude and they were in these bands, have a listen!" The taboo, forbidden and dangerous aspect will always appeal, especially to those already interested in extreme music.

So what about Burzum as a cultural artefact? Can we recommend it with caveats or do you just gloss over it? Can we download it and burn CDs? Perhaps we should all download it, burn it and distribute it for free so that nobody has to pay for a Burzum CD again.

(A plonker is a pillock)
 
 
illmatic
08:43 / 14.01.04
I had a mate of mine copy me some Skrewdriver a while back. Terrible musically, fucking awful, but it was the lyrics that really unerved me. Had the same feeling listening to the "Romper Stomper" soundtrack (was this a parody put together by a punk band, seem toremember that rumour). I think striving for some sort of ideologically purity in the music you listen to is impossible. Sorry that seems dismissive but that's the mood I'm in today. This is coming from someone who turned off the new Raekwon LP last night because I got sick of the graphic violence and witless egocentricity (as expresed in some of the skits).
 
 
Pingle!Pop
09:08 / 14.01.04
Mmm... it's a bit unclear, thus "Joy-Division-question-mark" rather than "Joy-Division-full-stop". I think Joy Division were subject to quite a few accusations of fascism, which were never confirmed or denied by the band, based on some of their imagery and some rather stupid things said earlier in their career (such as shouting out, "You all forget Rudolf Hess!" during a recording). The claim on the New Order website that their name came from some magazine their manager was looking through, rather than the more obvious source of Hitler's world vision, seems possibly a little like denial. *Shrugs*... I can't claim to have enough information to make a particularly well-informed judgement, but Joy Division were the only example that I could think of off the top of my head. Feel free to produce a more suitable example...

I could also perhaps do with a better example than Skrewdriver for a "band whose music is overtly fascist but who don't use money from their records for political ends", having been informed by the above post that they're on a white power label, and therefore money raised probably would be used for such means. Anyone?

... Hm. The, er, slightly scary National Socialist Black Metal website seems to have a breakdown of a few bands which fall into the categories "Outspoken NS bands", "NSBM influences" and "NS-influenced" on its FAQ page...
 
 
rizla mission
09:29 / 14.01.04
Yikes! That's a pretty scary website.. But then, it's only a good example of how fascist/racist music is almost always marginalised to the extent that it's completely seperated from the wider musical world and is basically only known of / listened to by the (hopefully!) small group who are already in agreement with their politics - from what I've gathered, nazi bands tend to be on nazi record labels and play nazi-organised concerts for audiences of nazis, just because nobody else will have anything to do with them.. that's certainly the case in terms of punk, not so sure about metal..


You have to admit that Varg was instrumental in a lot of the notoriety and infamy which came at the start of the movement, and indeed can be attributed to at least some of the movements longevity because there will always be someone saying to someone else, "no, for real, the dude killed the other dude and they were in these bands, have a listen!" The taboo, forbidden and dangerous aspect will always appeal, especially to those already interested in extreme music.

Yeah, that's the thing - you can't just dismiss the nazism and the murders as being, like, just these two crazy dudes, and that's the end of it - that stuff developed together with the music as part of the same crazy cultural context, and all the people making black metal today are still tapping into that mindset to some extent even though they weren't directly involved in any of it.. violent misanthropism and Wagnerian romantic power fantasies are intimately connected to BM in the same way that ghetto life and gangsta shit are intimately connected to hip-hop - both have led to real life crimes, and if you're gonna listen to the music I think you've got to deal with that rather than deny it..
 
 
rizla mission
09:44 / 14.01.04
No one ever thinks that the Ramones are nazis despite all of the nazi imageary in a lot of their earlier work.

Well as is widely known, Johnny Ramone is a total extreme right-winger.. he wrote some shockingly militaristic lyrics for the less-good songs on their 'End of the Century' album, but the early nazi references apparently came from Dee Dee, who was born and brought up in post-war Germany and seemed to spend most of his life getting hung up about it - see the rather bizarre 'It's a Long Way Back to Germany' on 'Road to Ruin'.. (I've been reading a Ramones biography, can you tell?)

The only classic Ramones song which I think is of questionable intent is 'Commando'.. in view of the rest of their songs at the time it sounds like an obvious pisstake of right-wing militia types, but in view of Johnny's later beliefs and lyrics, you've gotta wonder.. I still think it's a great song though, and the rest of the band clearly play it like it's a sarcastic joke..
 
 
Cop Killer
23:07 / 14.01.04
But what about the instance when you're recommending black metal to the complete novice?

I'd suggest Mayhem, Emporer, Darkthrone, Venom, Bathory, Merciful Fate, Marduk, Abruptum, hell, you could even recommend early Cradle of Filth. And, even on a purely aesthetic level, I wouldn't recommend Burzum to the complete novice.

You have to admit that Varg was instrumental in a lot of the notoriety and infamy which came at the start of the movement, and indeed can be attributed to at least some of the movements longevity because there will always be someone saying to someone else, "no, for real, the dude killed the other dude and they were in these bands, have a listen!" The taboo, forbidden and dangerous aspect will always appeal, especially to those already interested in extreme music.

That same thing could work for Mayhem, with, "Dude, seriously, the guy shot his head off with a shotgun, left a not that said 'Excuse the mess' and the dude from the same band ate his brain and made necklaces out of his skull, and they were both in the same band, have a listen!" That's death and cannibalism, all in one and without any nazis involved. And those already interested in extreme music are hardly complete novices.
 
 
rakehell
03:37 / 15.01.04
And if you're going to mention that about Mayhem, surely you're going to mention Varg at some point. It just seems to me like ignoring him and his contribution to the scene is just putting your hands over your ears and shouting "not listening, not listening!" You don't have to call him, his music or his belief the best thing ever, but you can't just leave him out of the list.

What bothers me about the whole NSBM movement is that one of the leading bands is Graveyard from Poland which just seems very wrong. That, and a band from Eastern Europe having album titles like "The Celtic Winter".

Cop Killer, do you object to purchases of Burzum's albums because it gives Varg money? If so, how about copying CDs or downloading mp3s?
 
 
Cop Killer
18:07 / 15.01.04
And if you're going to mention that about Mayhem, surely you're going to mention Varg at some point. It just seems to me like ignoring him and his contribution to the scene is just putting your hands over your ears and shouting "not listening, not listening!" You don't have to call him, his music or his belief the best thing ever, but you can't just leave him out of the list.

Alright, yeah, eventually you would have to discuss Varg if you want to discuss Mayhem, I suppose. And in that pretext, all you really have to say is "And then this guy who liked to burn down churches killed the guy who not only started Mayhem, but almost single-handedly started the whole Norwegian black metal scene, his name was Varg, he was in this band Burzum who totally fucking suck." You can leave him off the list because black metal seems to be heading more towards symphonic than harsh, unlistenable shit. Hell, you left Ulver off the list and they were one of the first to step into that direction.

Cop Killer, do you object to purchases of Burzum's albums because it gives Varg money? If so, how about copying CDs or downloading mp3s?

Well, there's that, and the fact that Burzum isn't that essential to what most Black Metal bands are doing these days, and they suck. Would you recommend someone burn cds or download mp3s from Skrewdriver? I wouldn't, because it still spreads his ideals and notoriety, which isn't something that should be done. You can say he did this and this, but then address that he's a fucking jagoff and not really worth discussing too much because all he contributed was giving the scene a really bad fucking name and I support listening to music because it brings you pleasure as opposed to making you feel cool or dangerous.
 
 
diz
18:38 / 15.01.04
here's a question for those of you who are into black metal. how many people in the black metal scene are at all into the whole Montreal postrock scene? like Godspeed, You! Black Emperor and such?

it seems like there should be more overlap then there is, or maybe there's more than i realize...
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
19:06 / 15.01.04
I always took people's word for it that Skrewdriver were racist fascist scum, but I just looked up some of their lyrics just now and I feel kinda sick. Oh God, it's really bad.
 
 
+#'s, - names
19:24 / 15.01.04
Dizfactor: OVerlap? No idea why you would think that.
 
 
rizla mission
19:37 / 15.01.04
Aside maybe from the fact that both musical forms have a vaguely downbeat doom-laden quality on an initial listen, I'm honestly at a loss as to what Dizfactor is getting at with that comparison..
 
 
juan de marcos
21:43 / 15.01.04
IIRC most of the members of GYBE! are Jewish.
Since there are hardly lyrics in their music it's hard to say which ideas they're trying to express. Imaginery and sleevenotes show some fascination for industrial wastelands, the structure of multinationals, apocalyptic visions, desolation, resistance,anonymity,... Can't see any relation with Wagnerian dodgy nazi romantism.

Lemmy of Motörhead is fascinated by Nazi-imaginery ("bad guys wear the smartest uniform"). He has a large collection of all things World War II. That doesn't make him a fascist and he often says so. It's clearly anthropological and aesthetical interest.

Slayer were often accused of expressing Nazi viewpoints. But just because you write a song about dr. Mengele ("Angel of Death") doesn't mean you sympathise with the man. They are telling extreme stories through extreme (at least at that time) music. No more no less.

If I only would listen to music of artists which I can 100 % relate to, I would have a very very small collection.
Johnny Cash was a devoted christian and I'm a totally convinced atheist. Still, I adore his work.
 
 
rakehell
02:32 / 16.01.04
Ulver happens to be one of my favourite bands, but I didn't mention it as essential because Nattens Madrigal came out in 1997. If I had mentioned them, I probably would have mentioned Dimmu Borgir's Stormblåst. I think that an essential list of Black Metal can only come from albums before around 1995. After that, I don't know. When a band creates a deliberately shitty sounding album and tells fans it was recorded deep in a Norwegian forest you're looking at a different beast than true black metal.

Number nun: In the essential thread you said that Varg had strayed with Burzum and that only Darkthrone was true. What did you mean by that? Were you referring to Burzum's later recordings?

Cop: Do you think the black metal scene would be as big today if it wasn't for that initial madness? The church burning, suicide and murder. In the same vein you could ask if early metal like Judas Priest and Metallica didn't gain a lot of fans because of their apparent ability to induce suicide; or indeed if mainstream rap would be as popular without the 'gangsta' image.

What about books by people like De Sade or Hitler or Burroughs or Hakim Bey? Does time change the perception? What if Varg was dead, would that change his music from outlet to historical artefact?
 
 
+#'s, - names
04:44 / 16.01.04
Rake- I was just talking out of my ass really. Not really into black metal at all, but I really like darkthrone, and all the Burzum I have ever heard just bored me to tears.
 
 
ExitDose
08:09 / 16.01.04
I think it all comes down to individual preference. I don't fault anyone for not buying these albums. I think Varg might be a poor example these days due to the fact that he has severed ties with the White Power organizations he use to be affiliated with.

Personally, I have no problem buying these albums; I've been into black metal for about 10 years now. The way I see it I'm paying an artist for his work, regardless of how dumb his or her outlook on life may be, that's it. The bands are responsible for their own actions. When they cross the line into criminality, then that is the time to go into action, but, when it's just the art, I will treat them as any other artist. Again I wouldn't fault others for not doing as I do.
 
 
Cop Killer
21:16 / 19.01.04
Do you think the black metal scene would be as big today if it wasn't for that initial madness? The church burning, suicide and murder.

Well, either that or Cradle of Filth. The other stuff led to the notoriety of the scene, but that only attracts people who listen to something to be rebellious as opposed to actually liking the music.
 
 
Cop Killer
21:16 / 19.01.04
Do you think the black metal scene would be as big today if it wasn't for that initial madness? The church burning, suicide and murder.

Well, either that or Cradle of Filth. The other stuff led to the notoriety of the scene, but that only attracts people who listen to something to be rebellious as opposed to actually liking the music.
 
 
soldierblue
23:31 / 09.04.04
To Number Nun, there was no gas chamber in Spandau. That story about Spandau Ballet's name is untrue.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
11:21 / 07.03.06
(I know it's a couple of years after the fact, but I was reminded of this thread by the one on Lovecraft in Books, and I thought I'd add

As far as I knew, Spandau Ballet was a reference to the kicking of the legs of a prisoner being hanged in the prison (where Hess was). Can't remember where I heard that, though. But no, Spandau wasn't a death camp.
 
 
Kiltartan Cross
19:01 / 07.03.06
I always understood Spandau Ballet as referring to the sound of Spandau machine guns (staple of German aircraft and, in slightly different form, German infantry) in the First World War.

Digression aside, I find I usually reject music expressing sentiments I disagree with out of hand, and one instance is usually enough to 'colour' the entire output of the artist; even if it ain't too bad to start off with. With the Nazi Swing, though, I'm laughing at them, not with them; it'll do me.
 
 
doctorbeck
07:53 / 08.03.06
just a quick repsonse to this:
'Lemmy of Motörhead is fascinated by Nazi-imaginery ("bad guys wear the smartest uniform"). He has a large collection of all things World War II. That doesn't make him a fascist and he often says so. It's clearly anthropological and aesthetical interest.'

i LOVE motorhead, but have never been easy with this argument of lemmys, they used to come on stage to the sound of stormtroopers marching and some wagner, but also celebrate the lancaster bomber in one of their best tunes (and when the played dresden with the bomber lighting rig opened the show with 'i bet you've not seen one of these for a while') which is tricky, i think he is a knob not a nazi at the end of the day
i don't even think i remember Lydon wearing nazi regalia, as a london irishman i think he was too canny, but Sid did and Soiuxie did, and they were both knobs not nazis too

i was deeply uncormfortable with Morrisseys flirting with right wing south london culture in the early 90s and was deeply relieved when he at last took a stand a few years back, i didn't really listen to him at all for ten years but think he was a knob not a nazi too at the end of the day. when he repented and did a killer LP i loved him again.

i don't like Zappa, and consider him a mysanthrope, but that is an excuse not to listen to his music which i think is dull anyway,

my conclusion? i might be a bit more flexible if the music is any good. is this a sell out of my principles? it's probably true that the left has all the best tunes anyway. so i'm alright.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
10:32 / 08.03.06
I'm not sure if Morrissey ever has 'repented' for his flirtation with right wing imagery though. He's certainly backed away from that position in recent years, but I don't think he's ever done anything as, y'know, vulgar as actually apologise. The most he'll say about the Finsbury Park appearance that mainly sparked the controversy (and this is based on an interview I read a couple of weeks ago) is that he 'wasn't there to perform for a Madness crowd' (paraphrasing slightly, but that was the gist,) and thus could hardly be accused of pandering to the uglier, right wing elements. Elements which, if memory serves, pretty much bottled him off stage at the time, which would tend to support his contention.

And as for the offending songs which were, I think, 'We'll Let You Know' and 'National Front Disco,' both now seem to have been a bit misunderstood at the time. The 'last truly British people you will ever know' (ie football hooligans 'made hostile by the turnstile') of the former are also decribed as possibly 'the most depressing you will ever know,' who will 'descend on anyone able to defend themselves,' and all this is set to music that verges on the dirge-like, rather anything remotely triumphalist. 'National Front Disco' is admittedly more problematic, but ~I'd say it's still best understood as (yet another) character study of a 'lost,' potentially violent boy with whom Morrissey may or may not identify, rather than anything close to a party political broadcast for the BNP.

I'm sure how the controversy played out at the time, since I'd really lost interest by then, but listening back to the offending material now, it's hard not to feel at least some sympathy with Morrissey's oft-repeated claim that he was 'stitched up' by the UK music press. It's not always a comfortable listen (see also his cover of 'Moon River' from a year or two later, thread here or hereabouts,) but the 'racist' allegations do now seem to have been largely unfounded. IMHO

That said though, he really should apologise for 'Bengali In Platforms.' 'Life is hard enough when you belong here' indeed.
 
  

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