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Crossing the Abyss

 
 
Rage
07:32 / 08.01.04
I know this is a highly personal subject, but I'd be curious to hear about your experiences with this.

Took the Oath of the Abyss a few weeks ago, and I think I just finalized some sort of crossing.

Here's part of some creative writing I just did on it:

What's up Chronozon, old pal? It was always you and me baby. Did you hear about the lesser demons? They were eating my skull so they could name a record label after you.

Skin was stripped off my entire body: intestines crawled in maze-like formations to protest their own existence. All that was beautiful spat out the vomit of mankind: humans surpassed evolution by drowning themselves in the blood of insanity. Not the sexy kind but the gruesome kind, the kind where you're being chased by the diarrhea of your worst nightmares: the diarrhea that fucks with your flesh so it can laugh at how pathetic you are.

"You're so fucking pathetic" screams the toilet, tormenting your every move until you collapse into pseudo-oblivion. Self pity? You're not worthy of it. The diarrhea explodes over your arms, your legs, your stomach, your entire belief system and everything it's ever explored. Christopher Columbus is sailing the ocean of your despair, asking your ego why it's such a wretched piece of reverse cannibalism. Your ego is too weak to respond: it crumples into atoms of crippled two-year-olds: handicapped babies with Downs Syndrome are transmitting telepathic messages to the sarcasm of your personal disdain.


So, how do you view crossing the abyss? Is it something you think you can do on a regular basis, or do you view it more as a one time speciality? Is having a severe nightmare crossing the abyss? How about a bad trip? What does crossing the infamous Abyss mean to you?
 
 
Boy in a Suitcase
12:33 / 08.01.04
Regular basis, becoming more X-TREME with every iteration. Different meanings / levels of implication each time. I would be hesitant to call nightmares, bad trips crossing the abyss. To truly interpret every phenomena as a dealing of God with my soul, to really do that, is scary shit and I ain't touching it with a ten foot pole, not yet. Reading some of Crowley's instructions should help put a conceptual framework around all of this, how to go in with the proper safeguards, when to go in, etc.

Check out Phil Hine's Rips in the Edge, which is free online, and was just reprinted in Disinfo Book of Lies.... actually it's in Prime Chaos also so I think you've read it.

Be careful.
 
 
illmatic
13:28 / 08.01.04
I have a really excellent essay by the late Ben Rowe, a widely respected American Enochian Magician, on "Crossing the Abyss" but unfortuately I can't find it on line. You might want to have a look at some of his stuff.

From what I recall, he says that Crowley's conception of "Crossing the Abyss", following the Oath of Abyss (BisS is right, I ain't going near that one) is very idiosyncratic and personal to him, and contradictory at times (for a good poetic rendering of the Crowley point of view, see Prometha) and, his (Rowe's) experience was very different. From what I remember, he says his own experience was very personal - following a frusrating 5 year period of dryness, after this he gradually began to realise his personality, the shell of his indviduality, was falling away/not necessary, and there was - something else - present instead. He very much talks in Crowelyan terms, which I'm not sure that you're doing Rage (?), for Crowley, the Abyss is something like the nightmares generated by the collapse of individuality, which is a kind of irrevocable mystic absolute for him. I'm not sure if this is right, can't really remember, so can someone offer up a more succint definition of Crowley's take on it?

It's a fascinating essay anyway, I'll copy it for you, BiaS (next time I see ya).

Anyhow, personally, I've had some shifts of p. of view regarding my ego/self-image, but - it all feels less substantial than it used to be, but who knows? Never had the feeling of horrendous collapse anyway. I think it proably comes in different ways for different people and the comments in that "rips to the edge" piece are a lot more in accord with our ideas rather than Crowley's symbols.
 
 
EvskiG
14:50 / 08.01.04
As I understand it, in Crowley's terms "Crossing the Abyss" is a one-time thing that happens -- if at all -- very late in a very advanced adept's magical career. It's a situation where the magician allows his or her human self to "die" and free the divine spark within.

It's not necessarily the same thing as a mere spiritual or magical crisis, or even Molinos' "period of dryness" or St. John of the Cross's "Dark Night of the Soul."

Here's the Rowe article Illmatic mentioned, which is quite good:

www.hermetic.com/browe-archive/abyss2.htm
 
 
Nietzsch E. Coyote
16:50 / 08.01.04
I have looked into it, even dived into but I haven't crossed it yet. I am still on this side, dancing on the edge.
 
 
Rage
17:16 / 08.01.04
I like to put my own spin on things. Devoted servant of the DisOrder and all that. Crowley was a total joke, though he did have some good ideas. Anybody can fuck around with them and achieve the results that they're going for, especially dem scary chaos magician types.

Anyway, that was a little Dark Night of the Soul play too. Gotta say, I felt exhilarated after I'd typed all that. Like I'd exhilarated my inner bullshit. Rebirth. Cancel out everything: smash it all: make it so it contradicts itself and becomes meaningless. Then you can start anew. Might as well be creative with it too...
 
 
LVX23
19:42 / 08.01.04
evskig wrote:
As I understand it, in Crowley's terms "Crossing the Abyss" is a one-time thing that happens -- if at all -- very late in a very advanced adept's magical career.

Yes, this has been my understanding as well. I think there are different aspects of the Abyss and an individual can approach it many times in their life through circumstance, sometimes willingly, other times not. But taking the Oath of the Abyss, as regarded by Thelemites (and it's really their's to regard at this point), is very different.

Firstly, one does not simply walk up to the edge and cast themselves in. It is an arduous journey of spiritual sublimation and distillation to even get to the point where the Oath is even an option. Secondly, the Oath itself is far more than just saying "Bring it on, Choronzon!" and diving into dark visions. It is a commitment of your deepest being to what lies beyond the Abyss, a willingness to be directed by the energies of Nature, and an offering of your entire life to the forces of the Absolute. After such a commitment, as illustrated very well by Crowley's life (read "Perdurabo"), anything that stands in the way of your alignment with the Will of God, as it were, will be purged (like a spouse, offspring, loved ones, etc...). Basically, you are relinquishing control of your life to higher powers. This is why, for those in the know, the Oath of the Abyss is not something to be taken lightly nor shared with any stranger (Ill and BiaS seem to grok this). It is really the greatest sacrifice an individual can make. And frankly, when someone tells me they've taken the Oath, I rarely believe them.

On this point it should be noted that the Abyss is oft regarded as a False Crown. Many seekers get trapped there, deluded by the light which Choronzon weaves. These are the Black Brothers forever cauight in the City of Pyramids. Understand that Choronzon is not just blood and shit, but also deception and trickery and just when you think you've made it out to the light, there's just another mirror of illusion. Only the pure of heart can pass this test. Strictly speaking, it is only the angel, the augoeides, which can carry an aspirant across the Abyss.

Rage wrote:
Crowley was a total joke...

Riiiight. Glad to hear you've one-upped him, mate. Perhaps from your newly-enlightened state you'd find some time to show us just exactly why Crowley was a "joke", instead of just flippantly casting off such remarks and walking away.
 
 
LVX23
20:38 / 08.01.04
I just read that Phil Hine article that BiaS linked to. Pretty cool. I especially like dthis bit:

'be wary of spirits which herald a false dawn under the dark moon'

But note that in my diatribe above I am specifically referring to the Oath of the Abyss as it is understood within the western esoteric intiatory systesms (Thelema, Golden Dawn, etc...) as opposed to the more common experiences of decent into the underwold, death-rebirth, and the Dark Night of the Soul.
 
 
cusm
21:59 / 08.01.04
Well, I haven't taken any oaths (least not for men to hear, anyway), but I've been through the deconstruction descent rebirth thing. For me, it was a process of deconstructing every part of my belief system, challenging each point to prove itself and dismissing it when it could only offer another point to hold it up, until I got to the bottom and accepted that there was no tangible support for belief in much of anything. Even the senses can be lied to. So there in the floaty nothing-is-trueness, I gave life a big hard look and decided with as clear a mind as I've ever had to choose to believe some things, defying all logic and feeling by my choice, transcendent will supreme within the twisty illusions of the self. I realized exactly how I was not a machine, in that I could make such a choice at all dispite all data to the contrary. The rush of coming out of my trance as the world returned was something well beyond description. I consider that my crossing, for what its worth, as it was a pivitol moment for me and marked my taking control of my own reality and willfully accepting the divine within it (or I within the divine, as the case may be) in an act of faith that had the support of my full self behind it. More or less, a complete rewrite of self followed from the ground up that I'm still working on today, as you'd expect from deconstructing all the way down to nothingness and coming back from a coin-toss's decision away from oblivion. I don't think I need to do that one again, thank you.
 
 
EvskiG
22:41 / 08.01.04
As folks have noted here, it might be useful to separate the Thelemic term of art "Crossing the Abyss" from the common mystical crisis often referred to as the "Dark Night of the Soul" or "Chapel Perilous." I suspect that many if not most people who seriously practice magic face the latter sooner or later.

Here's Robert Anton Wilson on Chapel Perilous:

[O]ne eventually faces a crossroad of mythic proportions, called Chapel Perilous in the trade. You come out the other side either stone paranoid or an agnostic; there is no third way. I came out agnostic.

Chapel Perilous, like the mysterious entity called "I," cannot be located in the space-time continuum; it is weightless, odorless, tastless and undetectable by ordinary instruments. Indeed, like the Ego, it is even possible to deny that it is there. And yet, even more like the Ego, once you are inside it, there doesn't seem to be any way to ever get out again, until you suddenly discover that it has been brought into existence by thought and does not exist outside thought. Everything you fear is waiting with slavering jaws in Chapel Perilous, but if you are armed with the wand of intuition, the cup of sympathy, the sword of reason, and the pentacle of valor, you will find there (the legends say) the Medicine of Metals, the Elixir of Life, the Philosopher's Stone, True Wisdom and Perfect Happiness.

That's what the legends always say, and the language of myth is poetically precise. For instance, if you go into that realm without the sword of reason, you will lose your mind, but at the same time, if you take only the sword of reason without the cup of sympathy, you will lose your heart. Even more remarkably, if you approach without the wand of intuition, you can stand at the door for decades never realizing you have arrived. You might think you are just waiting for a bus, or wandering from room to room looking for your cigarettes, watching a TV show, or reading a cryptic and ambiguous book. Chapel Perilous is tricky that way.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
22:44 / 08.01.04
As I walk this land of broken dreams

I have visions of many things
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
23:09 / 08.01.04
What interests me is the conception of the Abyss put forward by Alan Moore in 'Promethea' - which I'd maintain is one of the best commentaries written on western Quaballa in the last 20 years. Moore infers that DAATH (the Abyss) was once a Sephiroth like any other but it no longer exists. There's just a massive desolate gap where it used to be - therefore our reality is, in a sense, broken in half. We're cut off from the Supernals and living in a damaged reality. This is how and why we experience things like pain, loss, grief, and all of the 'Abyss' type experiences common to human existance. I think it's essentially the same myth as the Biblical 'fall', in which the world of matter is cut off from the Divine; and the gnostic idea of God becoming trapped in matter.

But the Abyss is an integral part of the experience of our reality, in the same way that YESOD or MALKUTH, HOD or NETZACH are. You don't just visit NETZACH once, but several times in a lifetime - several times in a week if you're lucky. DAATH shouldn't really be thought of any differently in my opinion. It's a part of our reality, broken or not, and I think it's visited more often than the ceremonial magicians among us would have you think.

I'm not sure where I stand on the whole Oath of the Abyss palaver. I mean, can you look at Crowleys life and pick out a moment when he did this ritual and was suddenly ascended? Maybe you can, I'm not sure. But I think the idea of crossing the Abyss being some ultimate magical ritual that only the really really special magicians ever get to do when they are really really advanced, might just exist in our imaginations more than anywhere else. I'm not convinced that this mighty Crowley-sanctioned initiatory experience is neccesarily any more valid than the various exceptionally harsh initiatory journeys that the universe throws up for you from time to time, and which completely re-arranges everything from the ground up.
 
 
LVX23
00:37 / 09.01.04
Gypsy Lantern wrote:
But I think the idea of crossing the Abyss being some ultimate magical ritual that only the really really special magicians ever get to do when they are really really advanced, might just exist in our imaginations more than anywhere else.

Absolutely. But I think imagination is the whole point. Initiatory systems are in many ways like software to modify the operating system of our minds. In the Thelemic program, the idea of the Abyss has a very distinct definition relative to the western path up the Tree of Life. But it remains only one way of looking at things and only one metaphor for addressing the (self)intiatory path. My response was simply to clarify the use of the term "Oath of the Abyss" which, in the metaphor of Thelema, has a very strict meaning. I fully expect that only "really really special magicians" who are "really really advanced" have taken what is officially acknowledged as the "Oath of the Abyss(tm)". Basically I'm a bit of a stickler for semantics

Now, whether or not Crowley actually achieved this is debatable, but it is doubtless that he offered his life and being to the service of his angel.

I'm not convinced that this mighty Crowley-sanctioned initiatory experience is neccesarily any more valid than the various exceptionally harsh initiatory journeys that the universe throws up for you from time to time, and which completely re-arranges everything from the ground up.

Again I fully agree. If anything it is less valid (or at least less meanigful to us average chaotes) due to it's very exclusive nature. Wilson's use of the term Chapel Perilous is far more accurate and understandable for most of us, and it speaks to the archetype of the Abyss, rather than the western initiatory stage. I can recount many periods where I've passed into the Chapel and emerged a very different being. The P. Hine article BiaS linked to speaks of this experience very well and shows how it is cross-cultural and cross-generational. Perhaps this is what Rage was referring to.

And Gypsy, I really dig your retelling of Moore's notion of Daath as the space where a Sephira once was. And Daath is certainly related to the Fall (remember that Daath translates to Knowledge).

From Colin Low:
Kabbalists adopted this view that there was a time before the creation characterised by Tohu and Bohu, namely Chaos and Emptiness. Another idea mentioned several times in the Zohar is that there were several failed attempts at creation before the present one; these attempts failed because mercy and judgement (e.g. force and form) were not balanced, and the resulting detritus of these failed attempts, the broken shells of previous sephiroth, accumulated in the Abyss. Because the shells (Qlippoth) were the result of unbalanced rigour or judgement they were considered evil, and the Abyss became a repository of evil spirits not dissimilar from the pit of Hell into which the rebellious angels were cast, or the rebellious Titans in Greek mythology who were buried as far beneath the Earth as the Earth is beneath the sky.

Another theme which contributed to the notion of the Abyss was the legend of the Fall. According to the Kabbalistic interpretation of the Biblical myth, at the conclusion of the act of Creation there was a pure state, denoted by Eden, where the primordial Adam-and-Eve-conjoined existed in a state of divine perfection. There are various esoteric interpretations of what the Fall represents, but all agree that after the Fall Eden became inaccessible and Adam and Eve were separated and took on bodies of flesh here in the material world. This theme of separation from God and exile in a world of matter (and by extension, limitation, finiteness, pain, suffering, death - manifestations of the rigours or evil inherent in God) precedes Kabbalah and can be found in the Gnostic legend of Sophia exiled in matter. This idea of separation or exile from divinity mirrors very closely the use of the Abyss on the modern Tree to divide the sephiroth representing a human being from the sephiroth representing God.
 
 
Z. deScathach
06:19 / 09.01.04
What I suspect is that while you might find somewhat of a commonality underlying people explanations, what you will find that what people term "the abyss" varies widely. That's because it is a term, and it is our nature to add tons of shades of meaning, (very subtle ones), to a term. Personally I can't tell any of you whether I've crossed the abyss. If I was a Thelemite, I would have an easier time of that because I would have been taught what the term was supposed to mean in the context of Thelema. For me, crossing the abyss was that time whle approaching the strange awareness of myself as a void surrounded by a bunch of things called personalities. There's really no other way to put it. But I expect that it's different for each person. It's like I started out as a coherent personality, got ground up into little bits, and then found out that what I thought was "me" was really just a wardrobe, and that I'd been wearing the same clothing for most of my life. The neat thing about this is that I found there was a whole bunch of other stuff that I'd never tried on. So I'm just going through the closet trying shit on. It's fun! Whether that is going through the abyss, I haven't the foggiest. Let me tell you though.... getting naked was a pisser...........
 
 
illmatic
09:06 / 09.01.04
Z de - can relate to your post a bit. What I found interesting about your post was it's not framed in terms of a drastic crisis - I was thinking about this thread earlier on - as I understand it the Abyss, in Thelemic terms, is kind of a collapse of personhood - but Buddhism is based on those ideas - unreality of self and every other phenomena -well, not unreality but nothing has existential status, nothing is "self existent" - yet coming to this understanding in Buddhist terms, doesn't have to be the dramatic and painful experience that it is in Thelema? Does this say something about Thelema and the personality of it's founder?

What I found interesting about that Ben Rowe article (cheers for digging that out Evskig) is the way in which he contests Crowely's definition and terms. Perhaps Crowely's p of view was unique to him and there are other ways of reaching the same realisiation? Thoughts?
 
 
Boy in a Suitcase
11:13 / 09.01.04
LVX - My own personal take on this is that Da'ath - Knowledge - is the hole in the tree (destroyed asteroid belt) caused by the removal of the apple from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil (Qlippoth?) in Genesis.

But – all QLBH aside – doesn't ALL mystical experience tend to take on a crisis/rebirth pattern? I'm not convinced there's a final "snap" into enlightenment and if there is and I find out I won't be hanging around on the Internet running my mouth off no more! (I'll probably be sitting in front of the candy store and leering at schoolgirls, or alternately winning the archery competition in the Olympics with my newly aquired path-direct superpowers). If you have integrity and you go looking for 'truth', whatever that means to you (even if it's just 'a more aesthetically pleasing and revolutionized life') you're going to have to continually strip away whatever is holding you back from progress (to return to Crowley, this was expressed as the IAO formula in MiT&P). That's magick, that's mysticism, that's life. I wouldn't stress about this mad crazy Crossing the Abyss stuff ("I'm gonna fill up dat hole with my holy badass self!"), just keep things in the here and now and keep it real.

Life is a period of identity crises no matter how you cut it, we live in a temporary and volatile world. Will and grace will carry you through to the next level but intitiation never ends. When things start to get really crunked out, then we're in the realm of magick and mysticism and intiation proper, but don't obsess or start asking yourself "what's the official way to deal with this?" cause you'll lose your poise in dealing with these things!
 
 
trouser the trouserian
11:38 / 09.01.04
There's a link here to Frater Achad's "Liber 31" which (if I recall correctly) is his record of 'crossing the abyss'. My reading of it is that he is struggling to articulate a numinous experience. Simon Hinton comments on Achad:

"It is a well recorded fact that Achad went completely 'off the rails' for a good while becoming totally obsessed with his role as Crowley's 'magickal son' and discoverer of Liber Al's key. His imbalance or magickal obsession undoubtedly occurred as a direct result of him taking the Oath of the Abyss without working through the earlier grades of initiation. His ordeal was a long one and he suffered temporary madness resulting in such acts of lunacy as, cavorting around Vancouver clad in nothing more than a raincoat (which he then cast off to demonstrate the removal of all restrictions) and joining the Roman Catholic Church. However, despite this period of insanity, Achad did provide valuable insights into Liber Al that have proven to be creatively viable and which shed important light on some of the mysteries contained therein. Most notably he heralded in the Aeon of Maat on April 2nd 1948, his 62nd birthday and 44 years after the inception of the bloody Aeon of Horus."

There's alsp an interview with Grant Morrison talking about having taken the oath of the abyss. More food for thought?
 
 
EvskiG
14:07 / 09.01.04
In that interview Morrison says "[a]s a practicing magician for over two decades now, I reached a point over a year ago where I felt it was time to take the terrifying 'Oath of the Abyss' and ascend to the 'grade' of ipssissimus - as it's known in the Aleister Crowley Golden Dawn hierarchical system of magical attainment."

Sloppy, sloppy. The Oath of the Abyss deals with the transition from Adeptus Exemptus to Magister Templi, not Ipssissimus. And the Crowley system to which he's referring is the A.:A.:, not the Golden Dawn. If Morrison wants to call himself an Ipssissimus he should at least get the terminology right.

Seems to me that people often get the mystical crisis they expect. If you expect to be tempted by demons and wade in the filth, you can. But why would you want to?
 
 
gotham island fae
15:19 / 09.01.04
Just quickly, most of my own experiences with 'crossing the abyss' have been just that, crossings. I dealt with the sticky madness of Choronzon's Song only as muzak piped in on the tramway up the Middle Pillar on the Priestess Path. (Rage should look into that.) It's the only method of crossing built directly into the Tree. And it's been my tarot indicator since I first picked up a deck with intent.

Off to research these posts and that Achad w/rite.
 
 
macrophage
19:11 / 09.01.04
Had a dream where Liber 31 popped up - nice one fer the link!!!! I always assumed Achad to have undertaken the Buddhist path, fuck nose why - never assume anything!!!!! Re: 100 years of Liber AL. Ah - Khonsu placed in front of Crowley in my piccie frame on me bookshelf - the synchronicicity of it all!!!!!
 
 
LVX23
19:41 / 09.01.04
Just reading the Rowe article...Here are my thoughts:

The word "abyss" has seen widespread use in the occult community, with many different meanings. In various times and places it has been used to represent everything from the Christian Hell to existential angst.

It seems that there is the archetype of the Abyss, and then there are the interpretations and mythologies wrapped around that archetype. Chapel Perilous, the Dark Night of the Soul, the descent into the Underworld, Crossing the Abyss, death-rebirth, etc... Each of these are perspectives on the singular experience of transformation, and each is colored with it's own flavor of mythology and personal/social baggage. While the root of the experience is very similar in all cases - the stripping away of individuality and the ingrained expectations of existence to allow a closer apprehension of the Absolute - the specific characteristics of each experience will vary by the mythology through which it is accessed. In RAW's terms, the reality tunnel through which you pass towards the Abyss will determine the character of the experience and, often, the outcome as well.

The shaman may be confronted by visions of serpents and rotting flesh but may find allies in songs and the spirits of Hir ancestors. The Thelemite may be confronted by the demon Choronzon and find recourse in the concept of the augoeides. In each case the aspirant has already been indoctrinated into the mythology and thus has a roadmap of what the experience will bring. If you expect to meet Choronzon and you correctly follow the steps outlined by the mythology, then you're probably gonna meet Choronzon. While the manic depressive or the schizophrenic or the man who watches his father die may all pass into the Abyss, they likely lack any roadmaps for how to deal with it's horror. This is the advantage of intiatory systems: They prepare the individual for confrontation with the self and offer a set of metaphors to give the experience some foundation.

From the perspective of my own experience, the whole "Abyss" concept is nonsense...Rather than a separation, our normal lack of awareness of the divine aspect of ourselves is a matter of ignorance.

This is exactly what the Abyss is, and the Fall as well. We are ignorant of our own godliness. We fell from grace and are lost in matter. The Abyss is not some chasm crafted by God to keep us from Heaven. It is a necessary outcome of the ascendancy of the ego and self-awareness. The Fall from Grace is the fall into duality, into self-awareness. The problem is that we've gotten stuck and forgotten our true nature. All of these myths and metaphors and intiatory systems are maps to return to our own self-awareness not as individuals but as part of the collective whole, to cross the Abyss that divides the self from the Absolute. The myths make it so we can accomplish this without destroying ourselves in the process. There's no point in seeing Heaven only to return a shambling wreck.

Illmatic raises an interesting point that the myth of the Abyss seems to be primarily a western notion. This may be due to the fact that the western mind has been infused with a strong sense of individuality, whereas the eastern philosophies, and the language as well, tend to be more collective. The western esoteric systems often build up the strength of the individual as they ascend through the path, so it becomes necessary to use much force to then destroy the individual to allow them acces to the overworld. In contrast, eastern systems tend to stress a steady wearing down of the individual, like a stream smoothing stone. Illumination then arises like a slow dawning (note that the kundalini schools generally break from this prefering a sudden fiery awakening). The western mind apparently needs the Abyss. It was mentioned somewhere but, like God, the Abyss may be something that, if it didn't exist, we would have to create it.

(I should note that the description that follows is from my own experience, coordinated with a very few other people's; your mileage may vary)

Exactly. And while Rowe makes this one concession he seems to remain ignorant. He feels jilted by Crowley because his "awakening" didn't bring him to Choronzon. Well maybe he didn't follow the path correctly, maybe his own doubts sabotaged his experience, or maybe he just wasn't cut out for that specific mythology and was more inclined towards something softer.

The myth you chose determines the experience. And the western path is often a dangerous and challenging one. It gives us a roadmap into the underworld, but the path is usually gaurded by powerful demons. Again, probably just something in our character.
 
 
LVX23
19:53 / 09.01.04
Ah, I just did a little more research on B. Rowe at The Hermetic Library and while he is predominanty an Enochian mage, there is a strong current of eastern buddhism and Taoism in his works. Again, this my be why he was inclined towards a softer awakening, rather than a fiery Abyss.

The character of the individual brings resonance with a particular mythology, and the mytholgy establishes the nature of their path and illumination (or destruction, as the case may be).
 
 
Unconditional Love
19:59 / 09.01.04
illmatic most definately has a point crowleys perception of the abysss says alot about his ego structure and his creations,buddhism, the journey of osiris,traditional shamanic dismemberment and many other systems all have ther cultural maps of this process, the fleamite one is one among many other ego biting and disolution of self experiences.
 
 
Francine I
06:36 / 10.01.04
Just wanted to say that I found LVX's posts here immensely helpful.
 
 
illmatic
08:43 / 12.01.04
I'd echo that. Excellent post.Not much else to say at the moment, perhaps more when I've had a think about it a bit.
 
 
Francine I
13:57 / 12.01.04
A few comments, here. LVX has expressed many of the feelings I have about abyssal confrontation.

I've noticed that there are two basic perspectives folks seem to be coming from. I would call these "surrender" and "sovereignty". The Chaote perspective appeals to me as an ego-sovereignty stance; one expects that one can commit only as much as is comfortable to the process of Crossing the Abyss. Many of you describe it as a pheonemenon as one might describe riding a bull. A thrill-seeking escapade in which one might win prizes. The perspective of ego-surrender seems to be cultivated from the Ceremonial Magick/Judaic tradition, and offers that one must surrender to the Abyss in totality in order to emerge, not unscathed, but rather permanently stripped of certain features. At emergence, the seeker may reconstruct the ego under the Will, that the ego will in totality reflect the true light. No grainy holograms so to speak.

It might sound as if I judge what appears to be the common Chaote perspective of the issue. To me it's more a matter of concern than judgement. As I believe LVX has commented, the realm of Choronzon is one of deception and trickery. The "stuff" of the false realm is the ego of the seeker. While the stance of ego-soveriengty may be equally valid in a philosophical sense, it may not apply in a safe or fruitful way to the existing concept of "Crossing the Abyss".

I risk a poor analague, but there's a chance it'll help explain my thoughts. I liken the seeker's commited experience to a Chinese fingertrap. It is the instinct of nearly every seeker to build refuge from ego -- like a (false) light or a path back home. Here, however, the ego is subtly undermined, so that it crumbles as if with age. The harder the seeker works to protect her ego, the tighter the noose becomes. It is the virtue of surrender, which can only be practiced once a seeker has arrived at the point of realizing the position of ego, that sets one free. You submit to a condition of divinity which promises to make all within you which is not divinity dissolve in the last vestiges of it's own false light. I would imagine this is a totally singular experience in the life of the seeker; there is absolutely no way to imagine how one will feel, think, or behave on the other end of the experience. Total ego death seems an inevitable feature of a "true" crossing of the Abyss.
 
 
cusm
19:54 / 12.01.04
In a related tangent, I had an intereasting perception of Chronozon recently. In magic, when it comes to psy stuff, there's a sort of perception that is also imagination, and it is very hard to tell if you are actually perceiving something external or if it is your own ego creating what you want to see instead. In the middle of some empathic work, I caught a glimpse of that, and realized Chronozon as the ego speaking rather than actually perceiving. And man, is it slippery to navagate that. It just drove home to me the importance of being able to subjugate or dissolve the ego in magickal work for it to have any validity, especially where perception is concerned.
 
 
Z. deScathach
08:09 / 13.01.04
LVX23: Ah, I just did a little more research on B. Rowe at The Hermetic Library and while he is predominanty an Enochian mage, there is a strong current of eastern buddhism and Taoism in his works. Again, this my be why he was inclined towards a softer awakening, rather than a fiery Abyss.

Illmatic brought up the question about whether the abyss needs to be a shattering painful experience. Early in my life I practiced Buddhist techniques as well as Taoist ones, myself. I find that my experience of dissolution of self has not been as shattering. I'm not so sure that the western mind requires that shattering experience, however. I do believe that some people do. People tend to move into the areas that fulfill their desires, (the one's they REALLY have). If it is dissolution of the ego that they seek, they'll gravitate into what does the job best for them. Unless of course, they don't REALLY want that, but only think that they do. Then things get a bit dicey. For myself, I've done the gradual wearing away, but there have still been experiences that have been shattering. I'm not so sure that the "gradual wearing away" is all that pain proof. Things can still get very frightening and scary. There can still be great barriers. There can still be demons.
 
 
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13:37 / 29.01.04
The abyss is something i had an experience with last year, and am glad that i'm still here after it. I was one of the people that make the mistake of trying to cross too early i think, and i had a nightmare.

I've been better since then and now have a better picture of what it is though i think. The first post here sounds like some type of initiation but i could be wrong, i'm not certain. Many people cross the abyss now and then, but problems arise when you try and stay on the other side and are sure you've done enough prep work when in actual fact you haven't. Hence, my near death experience last year.

One thing that helps though is to remember that even though your having an abyss experience, it's also channelled through Yesod and this sphere can often distort what your seeing to a crazy level.

Chapel P is a crazy place aswell and i've spent many nights wandering around that place, good and bad experiences from there but i've noticed that understanding and awareness are essential tools for whenever i find myself back there. Ha, i've just remembered that Binah corresponds to understanding and awareness aswell so with it being the next up from the abyss it's hardly suprising.

The next thing i'm going to have a look into is how closely the Abyss, Chapel P and the tunnels of Set are connected. Trying to grasp it now i'd say that Chapel P is Yesod (where some people never move on from and go up and down the 31st like a yo-yo) and obvious for the next two, but i want to try and find out how much each one affects the other. I'll post here if i get a good link.
 
 
harmonic series
18:46 / 28.03.04
I am very young, yet reply from a place where The Abyss has entered my heart, and home, what is left of it, yet I cannot choose once in it. I would like to explain to the sufferer, that this is important, your choices at this point, are not your own, they will be False. They must be false, because all 'thinking', ie, thought rationalized choices are false. They are created out of assumption, and on principles, uncontrollable and chaotic in nature.
Yes, Frances says:
"You submit to a condition of divinity which promises to make all within you which is not divinity dissolve in the last vestiges of it's own false light."
Yes. This false light changes with rapidity into a a true and incredible BRILLIANCE, and, if the carrier does not already have the spark of the Divine, He will have it now to carry him the way to the other side, which by the way, is exactly where She started.
I found irresistably accurate to myself, Gypsey Lantern's statements on DAATH. Esp. perfect:
"Moore infers that DAATH (the Abyss) was once a Sephiroth like any other but it no longer exists."
Yes, again! It's like the underground subway or train systems that have been shut down. They were once functioning, when they had a purpose for which they where built in their time, but no longer used, yet remain. Some of us, as you know yourself, prefer often, sometimes, or when very adventurous, to explore and perhaps even utilize these old sub-ground tunnels. The lines no longer work, you will not be transported by train, yet, my friends, it is so much fun to see the light onto the other side... Exciting.
 
  
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