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If you can help Keith...

  
 
Lilith Myth
23:30 / 07.01.04
I figured that the barbe-group therapy thing seems to work pretty well, and there's something I've resolved to get over or something this year. And maybe if 86-and-counting people tell me to give it up, I will.

It’s about a boy. B.

I met B about six Christmases ago, through mutual friends. We hit it off, and he asked me out, and we went out a coupla times. On the second date, he said to me “I’ve never been on more than two dates with anyone” which I took to mean get lost/not interested/can’t do it. So I fucked off. (About six weeks later, I came up with a good reply: "let's pretend this is our third date."

Since then, we've been kinda-friends. We go through stages; sometimes we’re good friends and get on in an intimate, personal way, other times, we don’t even speak to each other. He's talked to me about some of his hangups (intimacy, he's... inexperienced with women, other stuff). Other times, he makes out like I'm the least interesting person in the world.

All our mutual friends can't believe we're not together. We are kinda perfect for each other. Every few months, a friend'll say to me, "I saw B talking to you on Saturday, and he really fancies you." And that's the vibe I get, too. But if you ask B, he'd say I'm scary and we don't get on, but that's not borne out in real life. He tends to pursue totally unattainable/unavailable women, and then gets frustrated at his lack of success.

My reading of the situation – which is clearly biased and potentially flawed – is that because I’m not a lesbian/about to move to Australia/married – i.e. available – he’s just too scared of reality. I’m a real person in an adjacent postcode with lots of shared interests and friends and he can't handle that.

I… feel excited when I’m with him. And I know I give him
something, too: he just asked me to help him with a big project, where he needed a lot of hand-holding, that meant giving up a lot of my time. My boundaries are generally pretty good, and if anyone else had asked me to do that, I would have said no, but I couldn't. This sounds crap, doesn't it? And he's sometimes selfish back: he got me involved in something that was sort of in my interest, promising help upfront, and was then too busy to give it, and I cocked it up.

On New Year's Eve we were at a big party, and during the bit where everyone goes round hugging at kissing, just past midnight, he walked past me about four times. I know he saw me. And of course I could have gone up to him, but I don't want him going round telling everyone I'm a man eater, and just didn't even want to go there.

The next night, at another friends, he ignored me all night, and then when I was leaving, he was all over a (lesbian) friend of ours, he called out "Lilith, why aren't you speaking to me?" I just left.

A big part of me says that I should just let it go, it’s not going to happen. And a tiny, tiny voice says I know he's a little hung up, but he's.... the guy. I go out with other people, and some of them are fabulous - truly fabulous - but it always comes back to him, in my mind.

It's not sounding good, is it? I'd really appreciate your advice.
 
 
The Apple-Picker
23:49 / 07.01.04
It isn't going to happen, Lilith. Not that it couldn't. But it's unlikely.

I was in love with this one guy for four years and I always had this feeling that we would end up together. When he called me last spring to tell me that he was engaged, and even though we hadn't spoken in over six months, and even though I thought I'd been over him for some time, I felt pretty devastated.

After I told her, one of my closest friends said to me, "If something were going to happen with you guys, it would have happened a long time ago."

I think the same thing applies here. Lilith, if something were going to happen with you guys, it would have happened a long time ago.

Stop thinking a bit about his hangups. Everyone has them. Maybe think about what yours might be regarding this guy?

This guy with whom I was, in my mind, eternally on the verge of a relationship, he spared me from having to feel too lost when another relationship didn't work out. But too, I think because I always had that reserve for him, it kept me from getting into other relationships or from investing myself too fully in them. Does any of this feel familiar? Or am I just talking about myself?
 
 
Tryphena Absent
00:08 / 08.01.04
I'm not going to offer you advice because I can't but I am going to dissect your post a little in the hope that I can be of some help to you...

I met B about six Christmases ago

But if you ask B, he'd say I'm scary and we don't get on, but that's not borne out in real life

That's a long time to have this kind of ongoing relationship and if he's known you for that long and is still so hot and cold then I suspect it might be time to count your losses. Does it matter if it's borne out when he's prepared to say that kind of thing? He sounds confused but his confusion isn't that important if you're suffering from it. We never know other people's minds, we can only guess at what they're thinking and he's a little selfish to behave in this way particularly with someone that he's known for a while. It seems like you're having to guess his hang ups and account for them and it's mucking your feelings around. Start thinking about yourself and not this guy and why he's acting like this.

he makes out like I'm the least interesting person in the world.

Do you want to be involved with someone who can behave like this towards you? It seems negative, not for him but for you. You're really worth more than this, you're just not the least interesting person in the world and as a friend he should have the courtesy to be more attentive than this whether he's intimidated by the idea of a working relationship with you or not.

You say he's prone to ignoring you but what he's doing to you is forcing you to ignore him and I imagine making you feel insecure and horrible in the process. I can only reiterate The Apple Picker's words when she says Stop thinking a bit about his hangups. His reaction to you is putting you in a position where you start to behave horribly towards him and that's just not good for you at all. No one should have to deal with people flashing on and off with them and no one can possibly do anything to spurn this reaction in people, if it's not something you've done than it's all him and you don't have to play this game. You're worth more than that.
 
 
Mazarine
00:11 / 08.01.04
All our mutual friends can't believe we're not together. We are kinda perfect for each other. Every few months, a friend'll say to me, "I saw B talking to you on Saturday, and he really fancies you." And that's the vibe I get, too. But if you ask B, he'd say I'm scary and we don't get on, but that's not borne out in real life. He tends to pursue totally unattainable/unavailable women, and then gets frustrated at his lack of success.

Hey Lilith. I have been in a similar situation in the past, and a boy who I fancied, the one all my friends said they couldn't believe I wasn't together with. Unfortunately, it doesn't matter what the friends think- just cause it looks like a relationship doesn't make it one, and unfortunately, all their thoughts can't change his.

As for what his bona fide, legitimate hang up is, frankly, who the hell knows? He probably doesn't. Maybe he'll figure it out someday, but for the moment, it sounds like he's wasting your time. It's not up to you to figure out what'll make him happy- if he doesn't know, you're not gonna figure it out for him. He wouldn't know it if he saw it.

I am pissed off at him on your behalf, because it sucks that he's treating you this way. Whatever it is though, whatever his problem is, you don't have the power to fix it. I'm sorry hon.

I would advise you to keep away from him all together. Such boys (and girls) tend to make very poor, unreliable and self-serving friends.
 
 
Jub
10:50 / 08.01.04
Lilith - have you tried to talk to him about this?

You clearly like him but don't know where you stand. He sounds a little immature, both with his commitment phobia and the like, but you have hit it off in the past and obviously like him.

He seems to want your attention, but doesn't know how to express himself sensibly beyond the two-date behaviour. If you decide he's worth the risk, I think you need to explain to him that you need more than that, but that it's okay. Even from a pessimistic point of view, it's better to regret things you have done than things you haven't. I think he will see the truth in this also....

...if he likes you. And if he doesn't; Bollocks to him!
 
 
Ninjas make great pets
11:03 / 08.01.04
I've lost an 8 year relationship, when it was good it was great, when it was bad it was sad.

to paraphrase the white stripes..


I fell in love with a boy, I fell in love once and I lost completely..


you love them or you don't, they love you or they don't, you love each other and still have to walk away.. hard to win in this game. Just don't stop loving life thats all you can do.

sounds like it was written by a child doesn't it? its been so cpmplicated and mixed up its something I'm stuck laying down as simply as I can or I'll go mad!

Good Luck Lilith x
 
 
Sax
11:11 / 08.01.04
Lillian Myth -

It might happen, you know? Stranger things have. He might turn around and see you loosening your hair and taking off your glasses and say to himself: "Wow. Lil is beautiful. If only I'd noticed ten years ago."

But it's a pretty long time to be holding a candle for a bloke on the off-chance it's going to happen, isn't it?

He's good to be around. He makes you excited when you're with him. Yeah, a lot of my friends are like that. Note what I said there - friends. Friends can be almost everything that a partner is, except you don't have to wipe their sperm off your leg. Which can sometimes make then nicer to be around.

Perhaps you're giving off vibes that you want him too much. It happens. It might scare him off.

Go and be yourself and don't think about him. Other people will realise how gorgeous you are and you'll attract them like moths. Then maybe he'll take notice as well. By then, though, you'll be so fabulous you hopefully won't care.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
12:51 / 08.01.04
My man Sax has it all sewn up. The thing about "If something was going to happen, it would have happened a long time ago" is this: it ain't necessarily so, but you have to live your life as if it was, because it's better that way round than the alternative. Without going into detail, I speak from experience on that one...
 
 
pomegranate
13:50 / 08.01.04
i know it's maddening, but you can't focus on all the ways that what you want is right. like keith focuses on how that girl really likes him. and you focus on how yr friends say you'd be good together. that stuff really doesn't matter, you see what good it's doing you: none! *for whatever reason* (doesn't matter what), b. doesn't want to be w/you, or else he would have made the move by now. you have to cling to that. why would you want to be w/someone who's not interested? for that matter, it sounds like he has mega-issues, and why would you want to be w/someone like that? find someone who rocks and knows that you rock.
not to *totally* dis b. and keith's girl, but it makes sense why they'd start to throw you little bones when it seems like yr losing interest. among other things, you helped b. w/a difficult project, and keith brought that girl a movie when she was sick. prob'ly they only do it subconsciously, but still. it's toxic for you, you don't need it. good luck hon!
 
 
Morlock - groupie for hire
14:50 / 08.01.04
Hmmm, could he still be really confused about how *you* feel? If so, if he's not sure if you still like him, he may be trying to moderate his behaviour to mirror your feelings, and screwing it up badly. Would explain the hot/cold spells.

Try to get some real facts together. "took to mean", "he'd say", "my reading", all very subjective. Understandable, sure, but that mindreading thing just doesn't work.

But unless that makes a serious difference to your situation, I'm headed for the "walk away" camp. five years is a long time. Maybe he can change, maybe in another 5 years you'll match perfectly and easily. And maybe not. Look for alternatives, you can always reconsider in 2008, wherever you are.

Faith can move mountains, but that shouldn't stop you looking for a shovel. Good luck, Lilith.
 
 
Perfect Tommy
03:04 / 09.01.04
I think you should probably walk away. But, if I were you—and, I don't say that to mean, it's the right thing, merely the possibly wrong thing that I would do if I were you—is pounce first. It's a relationship chock full of ambiguity; while that isn't always bad, and I'm having an ambiguous friends-but-maybe-more-one-day relationship myself, I think that removing the ambiguity would be a good thing. "Manhunter" comments be damned. Full disclosure, no room for subjective interpretations, and if he's still ambiguous, then his ambiguity becomes an answer and it's time to move on.

(Um, I'm probably just saying what Morlock said.)
 
 
Lilith Myth
23:31 / 09.01.04
Sorry I posted and ran... thanks all for your wisdom.

I think I got very slightly freaked out by the "wtf is this love advice thing" thread, because I partly agreed. And then I realised I had contributed to it. I think people can overshare, but that there's something incredibly useful about getting other people's perspectives.

So writing down what happened made me realise that it's not happening. And then hearing you guys say many-shaded versions of the same, made me realise that I'm even angry... he's known how I feel for a while, and chooses to use it (emotionally) when it suits him, and ignore it when it doesn't.

I haven't seen B since New Year now, and I feel strangely... separated. It wasn't great spending all that time with him. You're right. I really can't be wasting my life/time on someone who's lukewarm about me. I just see him more now as, well, quite selfish, really.

Think I'm rambling,now. Sorry.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
23:40 / 09.01.04
Don't be bothered by the wtf is this love advice thing thread. I reckon everyone who contributed to it is enjoying the sudden and inexplicable rise in the number of threads about relationships.
 
 
pomegranate
01:02 / 10.01.04
basically, if we weren't down, we'd ignore it, and the thread would die a slow, slippin-down death.
 
 
Bed Head
02:02 / 10.01.04
I love these threads. Seriously, feel the love on Barbelith. Lilith, you and Keith have gotten some really great advice from people sensitive enough to care and wise enough to know. Heck, I wish I’d heard stuff like this when I took my tumble. Next friend I know who gets all messed up is just going to get given print-outs of these threads to read. The only reason I haven’t contributed is because it’s all already been said so well. But, the fact that what you and Keith are experiencing is something so many of us have experienced at some point, and we’re all okay now and able to help, is proof that things about to get much better for you from now on. Trust me, I’m a ‘Lither.

BTB, for what it’s worth. It’s your choice what you do with b. But the cruncher for me was that New Years Eve-thing, that just sounds plain mean. I wouldn’t take treatment like that from an ordinary ‘just-friends’ friend, let alone a potential special friend. And certainly not someone you’ve known for six years. Gotta love yourself, girl. You’re obviously great, and he doesn’t sound very nice: it’d never work out.
 
 
Char Aina
02:59 / 10.01.04
Friends can be almost everything that a partner is, except you don't have to wipe their sperm off your leg.

a good friend will do that for you.


short assesment of the whole thing?

he loves the fact that he has this 'in emergency, break glass' girl kicking around, just on the off chance life takes a turn for the dramatic and all the unatainable women start wearing more clothes.
i dont think he necessarily knows, and it's probable that he didnt plan it this way. however, if he hasn't at any point in the last few years thought to himself that it is nice to have a constant admirer(and an engaging one at that), i would be shocked.

so.

be his friend.

make jokes (until it gets annoying, and then until it breaks through on to the other side, where it becomes funny again) about you two being long term platonic lovers.

make him think (with the subtlety) about all the blowjobs that a decade could have held, and how few the next almost certainly will. perhaps give him the tools to realise why.





the above is my drunken tuppence.

i stand by it, but i will give it dirty looks occasionally and look at my watch until a bus comes.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:27 / 10.01.04
I think possibly we should steer away from telling him how many blow jobs he could have been getting, toksie. And I'm not quite sure what tools there are to determine how many or few he wil be getting in the next few years. A gobjobtheodolite?
 
 
40%
13:17 / 10.01.04
Lilith - I don't know you, but I feel I might have something to contribute here.

Your descriptions of this guy and his behaviour sound so much like me, at least what I used to be like, and hope not to be like in the future, that it made quite uncomfortable reading for me. I can just imagine some girls that I've known having conversations like this one about me in the past. And this perspective may give me unusual insight, or it might make me more sympathetic to this guy than is really rational, but I can't help feeling that the "it's not gonna happen, get over it" advice doesn't quite do the situation justice.

He's acting like a jerk and he's treating you very poorly, that much is for sure. He does sound very immature. But the feeling I get is that he's just terrified. I would tentatively say that he probably does like you the way you like him. Why else would he talk about his hang ups about intimacy? But as you say, he's just scared of dealing with a real woman. He's holding onto some fantasy of a relationship which won't involve the difficult realities of being vulnerable to another human being.

I agree with Bed Head that his behaviour on NY's eve was unacceptable. But it seems to me that his excessive attempts to alienate you are very telling. He seems to be wanting to make an impact on you one way or the other, to make sure that he is a prominent feature of your life. Whether he's the guy you love or the guy who drives you mental, at least you're still thinking about him.

All of which is very immature, as I said. And if he was someone you just had a bit of a crush on, I would say forget it, it's not worth the hassle. But the fact that you've known him for six years and are still thinking this way about him, perhaps having invested that much emotion into him, it's worth investing a little more. Perhaps.

So on that basis, I would concur with Perfect Tommy's advice. Pounce. In the immortal words of Marcellus Wallace, "set the dogs on his ass, find out for damn sure what he knows and what he don't". Guys like him and guys like the kind of guy I used to be are unlikely to respond to anything less. Demand an answer from him. If you put him under pressure and he doesn't come out with anything substantial, you should probably cut your losses. But you may find that when he's put on the spot, his true feelings may come out.

So writing down what happened made me realise that it's not happening...I haven't seen B since New Year now, and I feel strangely...separated. It wasn't great spending all that time with him. You're right. I really can't be wasting my life/time on someone who's lukewarm about me. I just see him more now as, well, quite selfish, really

You sound quite disappointed at the outcome of this thread. Although everything you're saying is true, I'm not convinced you really want to leave it at that. If I was in your position and everyone had given me this advice, I would probably feel a fool if I did otherwise. But you have to follow your heart at the end of the day, damn what anyone else says. Even 86 people's agreement about something can't silence that nagging voice inside you.

Please forgive me if I have offended you by presuming to know so much about you and your situation, more than other people who may actually know you. And please ignore everything I've said unless it happens to strike any particular chords with you. I'm going on my gut feeling, nothing more.

Hope things work out for you.
 
 
Char Aina
18:07 / 10.01.04
And I'm not quite sure what tools there are to determine how many or few he wil be getting in the next few years.

sorry, i meant 'mental tools'. issa wassname. metal-fur.

psychogobjobtheodolites mebbe?



i was being flip before, i admit that, but i still think lilith should be more aggresive about making sure the point is understood.
something to bear in mind is i don't even know the cunt in question, so i should not be taken as the expert.(as if that wasnt clear enough...)
i was giving how i saw the situation, not how it is. it's my map, and all the placenames are in swahili.
 
 
Char Aina
18:17 / 10.01.04
what i mean to say about the blowjob thing is that lilith could try to manouver things so that he realises independently that he has lost out on a lot of foooling around with his 'rainy day lady', probably through a mix of fear and arrogance. (if we kiss it'll ruin it/she'll always be there anyway)

using the subtlety, i think you could make it clear to him that he has messed you around, leading you on some might say, and has not even taken advantage of the fact that he had a lover on call.

don't actually go up to him and drunkenly inquire as to how good he really thinks you would be in bed, just make it obvious that you would have been awesome, if only he had taken the offer up before the expiry date. which of course was yesterday. whatever day today is.

am i making less nonsense?
 
 
Char Aina
18:25 / 10.01.04
If you put him under pressure and he doesn't come out with anything substantial, you should probably cut your losses. But you may find that when he's put on the spot, his true feelings may come out.

well, yeah, maybe. but if 'X' from my past had done the same to me when i was her long term platonic lover, i would have run for those internal hills of the mind and stayed there for the next couple of seasons.

that is because i am a pussy, and would rather sabotage my entire life's happiness than go down in a blaze of (un)glory in front of some folks. folks like 'X'.

he may be similar, you should watch for that.
 
 
Perfect Tommy
19:08 / 10.01.04
I think I understand your position, toksik, and I might suggest that if he probably is terrified then perhaps the pouncing can be a gentle pouncing, with recognition of the potential for him just being afraid and handling it poorly. But my sense of of the situation is, it would be better for all concerned if there is a tearful embrace as the orchestral music swells, OR if he's in the position of having to say No Thank You, OR if he freaks out and runs into the hills, which would be sad but still a much-needed resolution. I can see engaging in subtlety for a year, but not for six.
 
 
Char Aina
19:14 / 10.01.04
oh, completely.
'closure' as the TeeVee people call it all the time is pretty important in these situations, and there is no way another six years of no idea what is going on is healthy.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
20:17 / 10.01.04
I don't know.... it occurs to me that hanging around subtly saying "Look! We could have been *great* together! Look! But now I'm over you! Over youuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu! Are you listening! We would have been great together! Think of all the great sex we could have had! If I wasn't over you! Which I am!" isn't exactly powder in the Angel Delight of dignity...
 
 
Char Aina
02:05 / 11.01.04
i hear you... but does that mean it's the milk?
 
 
Char Aina
03:08 / 11.01.04
seriously, though, i'm not suggesting ms. myth hang out with the geezer a lot. if anything, the more distance the better.

but when she does talk to him, she can use her powers to have him convince himself he was a fool to be so churlish.
 
 
Lilith Myth
13:24 / 13.01.04
So, because I appreciate you guys input on this, and without going into any further detail, let's just say it's definitely not happening.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
13:52 / 13.01.04
Sorry to hear it, and I hope you're not too miserable. It didn't sound from your earlier description as if the chap in question is anywhere near sorted enough to cope with a proper relationship... I think that you are probably much better off knowing this and being able to move forward.

Chin up, chest out, Jemima, etc.
 
 
Lilith Myth
14:20 / 13.01.04
Oh, chest is always out
 
 
Ex
14:56 / 13.01.04
Ah, shame.
Good luck and support and stuff. Very difficult when a vague but persistent opportunity evaporates. I've found myself more upset at posibilities that didn't work out than at actualities - you have to get over the loss of hopes and fond imaginings, which were often - nay, invariably - much better than the actual person.
On which note, and if you can stand more preaching from complete strangers - it doesn't all fall into place if you admit you like each other, either; so if someone is an uncommunicative pillock through years of acquaintanceship, they'd probably have continued to be a pillock in any given relationship. Don't know if that helps, or is just annoying.
All the best with the chin-upping.
 
  
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