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Superman Revamp Split Into 3 Separate Timelines?

  
  

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FinderWolf
15:42 / 05.01.04
And as for the Superman titles --

How much does this suck??? If this is true, I hate DC. They have no balls. They put some decent creators on the Superman books FINALLY and they pull this stupid shit???
I really REALLY want this to be false. We know Austen's Superman book will suck, but Rucka and Azz might turn in something good (esp. Rucka). Azz' BATMAN is really leaving me flat - very disappointed by it. Even Risso's art can't save his Batman run thus far.

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Time Can Do So Much

I’m told DC’s new Superman revamp will be based on an event that alters the past and creates three separate timelines, giving the creators on each book complete freedom to write the stories they want without worrying about continuity.

My source says the Brian Azzarello and Jim Lee Superman will operate in a world without Lois Lane. She’ll be dead, allowing for more violent and dark yarns. In the Chuck Austen and Ivan Reis Action Comics it will pretty much be the status quo. Lois is alive and she’s married to Superman/Clark Kent. In Adventures of Superman written by Greg Rucka and illustrated by Matthew Clark, Lois and Clark aren’t married and she doesn't know about his secret identity. This book will apparently revive the love triangle concept.

All three Supermen will live in Metropolis simultaneously, but will have no knowledge of the alternate timelines. I hear this split will set up a big crossover at the end of 2004 pitting the three Supermen against each other.

This Has A “Seeing Triple” Factor of Five Out of Ten

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Matthew Fluxington
15:59 / 05.01.04
This is a pretty dumb idea, but Rucka's got the right idea - the worst idea ever was to have Lois know about Superman and then marry Clark. That destroys all of the tension and makes Superman's personal life very boring.
 
 
diz
16:33 / 05.01.04
This is a pretty dumb idea, but Rucka's got the right idea - the worst idea ever was to have Lois know about Superman and then marry Clark. That destroys all of the tension and makes Superman's personal life very boring.

well, it's sort of a damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't scenario. on one hand, Lois and Superclark are a really fucking boring couple. on the other, there's only so far you can draw out the tension regarding Lois and Superman's secret identity and the whole Lois/Clark/Superman love triangle before it also becomes boring, and i think we passed that point long ago.

on the freakish mutant third hand, killing off Lois is, well... trite. it's the sort of thinking that equates "darker" with "more substance." it's not that it can't be done well, as such. Kingdom Come did great things with Superman, and Lois' death was crucial to that. but in a regular monthly... bleh.
 
 
Krug
16:45 / 05.01.04
I hate to be the odd man out but...
I think it's an interesting idea.
Won't be reading anything besides Azzarello's book but it's a good idea not to have new writers be tied down by sixty years of bad ideas. Lois/Clark marriage is very badly written if not all together a bad idea. But then I'm not a Superman fan. I think it should be experimented broadly with other characters from other companies.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
17:08 / 05.01.04
Since Superman is a character driven by nostalgia, it benefits greatly from maintaining a status quo that anyone familiar with the character will understand. The myth of Superman is a complete one - we all know how the character starts off, and we know who his supporting cast is, and we know his iconography and tropes. Continuity is Superman's biggest enemy, really, and while it's good to see DC acknowledge this, it's still discouraging to see that they are going to shoehorn these projects into DC continuity. They should go back to the 50s style, with self-contained stories and weird "imaginary story" stuff that would be like what "Elseworlds" and the Lee/Azzarello project are.
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
17:51 / 05.01.04
Gods, comic conservatism really sucks. DC and Marvel seem determined to set the controls for the dark side of 1972 storywise and not make any changes (I've been reading The Life of Reilly over the weekend and god that's depressing). I can't imagine wanting to pick up a comic with such storylines in them and I doubt new readers will be that interested either.
 
 
LDones
23:53 / 05.01.04
This saddens me, but I find it hard to explain why. I don't think Superman is a character driven by nostalgia - not when he's any good. The core of Superman-love is in simplicity and wild imagination. The Superman concepts are primal and enthralling (Bizarro, Brainiac, names like fucking 'Lex Luthor'); the joy in intaking them, for me, is always in seeing the simple concepts played against each other in imaginative ways.

Concentrating on telling 'darker' Superman stories and killing Lois Lane sounds like an idiotic idea - counterintuitive to everything that's relevant or enjoyable about the Superman idea. A series with Lex Luthor as the hero and Superman as the bad guy would be 'darker' and have severe potential for imagination and awesomeness, but I get the sense that isn't the sort of thing that's happening. Superheroes are supposed to fun and interesting...

If they're going to do three seperate timelines, have some fun with it for God's sake. Don't Kill Superman's Wife and expect good fictional karma from it.

I like Clark and Lois being married. I find that people my age who got into comics when they were kids responded to different things in Marvel or DC characters - DC was 'Dad', Marvel was angsty. I always hung to DC. I'll be pissed if they kill Lois. I like seeing the proverbial Superman icon happy and married. I don't identify with Superman, I don't think people are supposed to. I look in to see what crazy shit he's up to now and then, like rebuilding the universe piece by piece after the Joker 'breaks' it, or punching through 80,000 years of time with his fists, or flying through the sun to get enough power to smash the Brainiac-infested Warworld.

The Superman titles were a lot of fun for a few years, right up until the Our Worlds At War debacle (which was good reading if you only read the Superman issues) - I'm no fan of Jeph Loeb, but his work w/ Ed McGuinness on the core Superman title was absolutely stellar. Joe Kelly and Kano or Duncan Rouleau were fantastic, and Joe Casey and Mark Wieringo were a lot of fun, too. Mark Schultz was a bit weaker, but Doug Mahnke always made Man of Steel pop visually. Action Comics #775 is an amazing comic - one of my favorite single issues of anything.

Superman or Batman being handled poorly has always stung a little to me. I think I take it a little personally.

The old Morrison/Waid idea about Superman building a bridge of memories across time to prevent the universe from disappearing at the cost of anyone remembering him is a brilliant way to reset the status quo, if you have to do it - it's a shame it didn't happen like that. I think, perhaps, the Superman idea is still reeling from the karmic backlash of that rejection those years ago...

DC's hyper-continuity is an asset when it isn't treated deadly serious, like the current vogue of Geoff Johns and Justice League Cartoon people seem to like (I hate that fucking cartoon) - I've always found it rewarding to try to figure out who the hell Hero/Villain X was in the scheme of things. Without it, there's so little magic in the DC Universe.
 
 
Simplist
23:54 / 05.01.04
I actually like the idea. Not that there's a chance in hell one of the two non-status-quo realities ultimately replacing the current moribundity, but I can dream... Come to think of it, could this be the lead-in to the big crossover Morrison's allegedly writing, the one that's going to spin off X number of new DCU series? Because this would be a great way to reintroduce a multiversal mode to the DCU generally--all three turn out to be real, and those new series are spread across the three universes, featuring different iterations of already popular characters gradually diverging as time passes.
 
 
CameronStewart
00:33 / 06.01.04
I really like the idea of splitting off into various "alternate Earths" so that the creative teams can be unbound by the shackles of continuity. I think it's a step in the right direction towards telling *good* stories over pedantic ones - but I really dislike the idea that it will all be coming full circle so that all the alterna-Supermen will duke it out. It indicates a fear that continuity-free stories won't be received well by the fanboys and it reduces it all to merely a short-term gimmick. I wish they'd just stick with it for good.
 
 
diz
05:31 / 06.01.04
It indicates a fear that continuity-free stories won't be received well by the fanboys and it reduces it all to merely a short-term gimmick.

well, it seems like Superman has been plagued with short-term gimmickry quite a bit. there was the Death of Superman, followed by the four Supermen, the long-haired Superman, the electric red and blue Supermen, etc. i think that relates to what Herr Fluxington was saying about nostalgia and the cultural idea of Superman. you can't change Superman too much, or he doesn't fit the nostalgic idea of what Superman has always been, but if you don't do anything new with him, people are afraid readers will lose interest. so DC gets into these gimmicky stunt-writing solutions.
 
 
quinine92001
05:34 / 06.01.04
What about the timeline where Supes is replaced by Mr. Majestic? How does that fit into everything? Not to mention his "daughter" running around. Why can't we just go back to the thousand versions of kryptonite that changes Superman into a man with a horse's head or a bee's head. Oh how I miss the silver age.
 
 
quinine92001
05:40 / 06.01.04
I prefer the Superman hypertime spacebridge punch a hole in the wall reality scenario. Make Superman aware of us out "here".
 
 
Keith
07:25 / 06.01.04
you can't change Superman too much, or he doesn't fit the nostalgic idea of what Superman has always been, but if you don't do anything new with him, people are afraid readers will lose interest
I feel about Superman what I felt about Brookside... I ditched both about 3 years ago because the gimmicky stories were coming too thick and too fast for my liking.
I think that re-invention of the character entirely from scratch is the only real way to jumpstart the books. The John Byrne relaunch back in the 80s was genuinely inventive, and at once nostalgic. Byrne correctly twisted certain of the myths and conciets (the rocket ship, the Parents being alive) and he and his collaborators introduced the New Big Business Lex Luthor™ (nutty scientist Luthor concept was at least 50 years tired). Oddly, those changes wrought probably as much impact on the DCU as the more trumpeted events over at Batman (Barbara Gordon being shot, Robin buying the farm...)
 
 
I'm Rick Jones, bitch
08:46 / 06.01.04
Rucka's a good un. This could work. Austen's take will be awful and involve lots of sex talk, because everyone loves it when Chuck Austen writes sex!
 
 
DaveBCooper
10:04 / 06.01.04
Reminds me a lot of the Age of Apocalypse thing in the X-Books, really, and if it is true, I can only hope that it's equally short-lived.

Certainly not a good idea to bring in new readers, is it ? As if the whole Ultimate and animated versions of other characters aren't enough to confuse, now the regular comics featuring probably the best known superhero are going to be made just a little bit harder to get into. Great idea, that'll help sales.

And is it just me, or are some parts of the suggested set-ups more than a smidgin similar to the proposal that Grant Morrison and Mark Waid put forward and had rejected out of hand the other year ?
 
 
FinderWolf
13:04 / 06.01.04
What was the content of the Waid/Morrison proposal? I never heard what that actually was.

And for the record, I like Supes and Lois being married too, esp. when it's written well (esp. by Joe Kelly) - which, for the most part, I think DC has done. At least DC had the guts to marry their biggest character and really explore the marriage through (mostly) good writing.

Dammit, why can't they just tell GOOD Superman stories without having 3 timelines, one with Lois killed, one with Lois not knowing his ID, etc.? It seems like a crutch to avoid just telling GOOD stories to me. You can't tell me there aren't more great Supes stories to be told with the 'regular' continuity status of the characters - if only a writer could find a little imagination and be daring and have FUN with the character. I know it's a hard character to get right and do new, interesting things with, but I think it can be done.

Look at Rucka on Wonder Woman. There's a book you never thought could be good again, but find the right writer and there you go. They didn't have to put WW on some alternate timeline where she's still new to Man's World or some shit like that. JMS tells good Spidey stories without the reboot that John Byrne failed miserably at, complete with a late twenties/early thirysomething, MARRIED Peter Parker. It can be done, folks.
 
 
DaveBCooper
14:49 / 06.01.04
I think a central part of the proposal was to reintroduce the Lois-Clark-Supes triangle – having Lois forget she knows or that they’ve never been married or something on those lines. I forget the specifics, but it’s a bit odd that the proposal was rejected so quickly (and wasn’t Waid specifically told he would never write Superman ? ) only for this suggested new approach to lean that way as well.

There’s a pretty interesting interview with Mark Waid in the latest issue of ‘Write Now!’ magazine, where he talks about his affection for the character, and – I paraphrase – how part of the problem as he saw it with the character was that as governments and big business lie and cheat so openly now, it’s no wonder that younger readers don’t find Supes such an appealing character, as he seems to exist to support those (basically corrupt) establishments and institutions. Which, to me, is why a lot of people in this thread have said that Supes is fundamentally a nostalgic character – because he appears to be a symbol of the establishment (…), an authority figure (insert your own joke here), and of things which people (arguably) used to respect and support, but no longer do.

But if you want to get that essential decency of the character to shine through, you probably need to move away from the ‘saying yes to anyone with a badge’ bit (as Frank Miller nailed so astutely in Dark Knight, and made it look appropriately lame) and have him focussed on the truth and justice stuff. Even if it is a never-ending battle for the creators to do so in a new and refreshing way, particularly in these rather cynical times – but sometimes it’s a pleasant change to have a strong moral centre in a story, like Atticus in ‘To Kill A Mockingbird’ (I choose that example because I seem to recall it’s supposedly Clark Kent’s favourite film).
 
 
quinine92001
17:31 / 06.01.04
Hunterwolf- I think if you plug unofficial hypertime website into your search engine you will find out a whole bunch about the Morrison/Waid proposal.
 
 
FinderWolf
18:04 / 06.01.04
Thanks, quinine.

And yes, I think Supes is about the best values in all of us - how can that be only 'nostalgiac'? Grant Morrison showed heroism and made the X-Men a mutant emergency rescue team and filled the book with lessons about humanity's interdependence and selfless love. Superman is NOT the government and big business. The point is that he's a lone voice of true virtue and justice in a corrupt world - just like Atticus Finch. Is Atticus only 'nostalgiac'? I say thee NAY! He's just as relevant today as he was then, if not moreso.

SMALLVILLE shows that the good guy can indeed be cool. It's a hit with young audiences and they're not saying "Clark is too nice, he's too cheesy!" And it's not fair to say "Yeah, but SMALLVILLE is Clark with doubts and fears," since the adult Supes, when well written, has human doubts and fears too.

And of course, the other trick to writing Superman is putting him up against even more powerful opponents (but please not crap like OUR WORLDS AT WAR with Imperiex whatever) and putting him in moral dilmenas that he can't punch his way out of, and watch how he solves those kinds of problems.

And the title can have lots of soap opera with the supporting cast and what's happening with them. Back when Dan Jurgens, Roger Stern and Karl Kesel were in their writing prime, before and after the Death of Superman, they did really nice work in these departments (before Electric Superman and Superman Red & Blue, which is where they really started to go downhill). Add some sci-fi action and you're all set!

And Rucka is the best writer out of all these, I expect great things from his stories, crappy alternate timeline or not.

And Grant Morrison made X-Men work in present continuity - telling great stories that fans new and old alike enjoyed. This whole "you must reboot to have good stories" idea is nonsense, I think - the only Superman reboot that was necessary was Byrne's in the 80s; everything else can go off that. And we can forget about the silly "Return to Krypton" stories Joe Kelly & co. did in recent years, they were pretty lame.

ACTION #775 shows that you can still have great Superman stories with some application of inventive ideas and the classic beloved Superman spirit. Joe Kelly probably was the best Supes writer in the past few years, though he was very hit-or-miss with his stories. But he wrote the best Lois/Supes relationship I've seen thus far. Jeph Loeb told some nice Supes stories too, when he wrote the regular SUPERMAN book, although his were sometimes hit-or-miss too.
 
 
Keith
18:18 / 06.01.04
Hunterwolf: you pretty much summed up what I wanted to say, buy SO MUCH BETTER! I need to start formulating my thoughts more coherently. Cheers, bub.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
19:10 / 06.01.04
The DC Universe is always way better without continuity. That's why the most inventive and legendary DC comics are from the 50s and early 60s, and it's why the best DC publications in the 80s and 90s existed totally outside of or on the periphery of mainstream DC continuity.
 
 
The Falcon
22:10 / 06.01.04
How much does this suck? Not much.

Apart from the crossover pish.

And Chuck Austen, probably.
 
 
CameronStewart
23:48 / 06.01.04
The other problem with Superman's character of late is that he's too goddamn powerful - lame Kryptonite weakness aside, over the last 30 years or so Superman writers have increased his abilities to the point where he could fly through the sun unharmed if need be. Boring.

I did a panel with Howard Chaykin at a convention a few months ago and he said that his favourite Superman moment is in one of the old Fleischer cartoons, in which Superman is struggling - REALLY struggling - to drag a huge steam-train up a hill while being assailed with machinegun fire. The bullets are bouncing off him but they're still taking their toll as he strains with the weight of the train. He's slipping and falling and under tremendous stress but he makes it up that hill, because he's a hero. THAT is what makes a compelling character.
 
 
I'm Rick Jones, bitch
11:40 / 07.01.04
Superman's look needs to be made relevant again without the use of a mullet or a shit gimick like electriisdhsiofhghhhghhhhghhhhghhh powers. He was designed to look like a 30's strongman- they all wore capes back then. Now he just looks fucking stupid, apart from that logo. What do strongmen wear now? Give him an insane Luchador look or something, keeping the logo. Right now he looks wank. He's a fucking prick in his mum's tights and some speedos with a fucking stupid cape.

Superman the Luchador. I'd buy that.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
13:00 / 07.01.04
Superman's look needs to be made relevant again

Well, it has already. The show's name is Smallville.
 
 
I'm Rick Jones, bitch
13:26 / 07.01.04
Very true. I was thinking about the DC character in his 30s, however.
 
 
DaveBCooper
14:50 / 07.01.04
Be polite, his mother made the costume for him.
 
 
The Falcon
18:08 / 07.01.04
Michael Turner did some kinda futuristic-look Supes, which I quite liked, recently. I'll see if I can find some pics.

You don't tug on Superman's cape, Radiator. Nor, indeed, should you spit into the wind.

He looks fine.
 
 
Bed Head
18:28 / 07.01.04
All superheros benefit from a hefty reboot every couple of years. If DC bigwigs have actually come up with a happy means of combining fanboy continuity with a regular re-defining of the whole Superman universe, through this alternate-realities-type approach, then yay them: I might even buy a comic or two. I never liked the Byrne Superman because it read like a fucking AD&D handbook, just seemed to be re-setting a new continuity in stone. Bleh, who cares? Make a Superman who’ll sell this year, and then don’t hesitate to make another new one in a few years time. Although the stories I read were shit, I actually liked the idea of Electric Superman, because it so obviously wasn’t meant to last. And I liked the look of the Michael Turner Superman with chunky boots and shoulder pads. Maybe every couple of years they can still have their prime DC-sanctioned Superman kick the shit out of any alternative Supermen that prove unpopular with readers, and so keep the DC multiverse neat and uncluttered.

But what do I know? When I was a kid I always had such a thing for the Earth-2 Superman with white streaks in his hair. God, I still miss him now. Give him to me, I’d just make Supes sexy and old again, like Cary Grant in Charade. Not too old like Frank Miller decrepit-Superman: just senior enough that he’s still capable of delivering a hefty grown-up cuff round the ear to all these young super-upstarts. Getting old was maybe the best thing that ever happened to Judge Dredd.



Actually, what they should really do, is split the Superman costume across three titles: so the main Superman comic has Kal-El naked except for the blue jersey with the ’S’. And the other two titles have alternative versions of Superman either dressed only in the skimpy red pants, or the cape. At the end of the story-arc they have a big semi-naked three-way fight, and the winner gets the whole costume together. Hell, I’d buy that. I love the weird fixation comics have for costume-related crossovers and fights and stuff.
 
 
moriarty
18:51 / 07.01.04
About the Morrison/Waid/Millar/Peyer proposal, from an older thread.

"Basically, the writers were approached by DC brass to submit a Superman proposal. When they submitted it, they gave it to the Superman editorial team, who they assumed had been told that a proposal was in the works. The Superman editorial team, unaware that this proposal had been solicited by higher-ups, sent off an angry reply, accusing the writers of the proposal of trying to muscle their way in and steal someone else's thunder with an unsolicited proposal. The writers were understandably upset by this miscommunication, and even after the mistake had been pointed out, talks broke down.

The only thing I know about the proposal itself is that something would happen to cause the entire world to forget that Clark Kent and Lois Lane had been married. Even Lois would forget, including the knowledge that Clark was Superman. The only person that would remember would be Superman himself, which would compound the heartbreak of the reinstated Supes/Clark/Lois triangle, which the wirters felt was an integral part of the Superman mythos."

"When I was a kid I always had such a thing for the Earth-2 Superman with white streaks in his hair. God, I still miss him now. Give him to me, I’d just make Supes sexy and old again, like Cary Grant in Charade."

Right on. I remember at the end of Crisis, when the Earth-2 Superman and Earth-2 Lois floated off to explore new dimensions, the only people from that Earth to retain their memories and not be merged into the single universe.

That's probably my favourite Superman, the new Deal one who fought political corruption, defended unions and settled wars by making generals engage in one-on-one duels.
 
 
Keith
20:42 / 07.01.04
I guess that puts me in the Chaykin camp... I loathe the Superness of Superman. The Movie Superman was so very, very good when I was a kid - Reeve looked so much like Superman, but even then his "Wall rebuilding Breath™" and "Time Reversal Fast Flying™" powers boiled my piss. What I did enjoy about the Byrne re-vision (and don't forget *quite* how long ago that came out) was the re simplification. I'd love Superman to struggle trying to pull a Locomotive uphill under a hail of bullets. Doesn't sound *that* impressive in the context of "SUPERMAN", but GYAC it is pretty darned heroic imagery...
 
 
CameronStewart
21:46 / 07.01.04
>>>The only thing I know about the proposal itself is that something would happen to cause the entire world to forget that Clark Kent and Lois Lane had been married. Even Lois would forget, including the knowledge that Clark was Superman.<<<

Isn't this what's happening in The Flash right now? I don't read them (even though I get it free every month in my comp box), but I heard something about a current story in which The Spectre fiddles with the memory of everyone on the planet so that no one - not even Wally West - knows he's the Flash any more.
 
 
Bed Head
21:59 / 07.01.04
The Spectre fiddles with the memory of everyone on the planet

That'd be so cool if he actually played a fiddle to perform this miracle. As it is I bet it's just boring old Spectre waves his hands around/looks a bit all-powerful
 
 
LDones
00:53 / 08.01.04
From what I've pieced together from a number of sources, some of which come from Waid/Morrison's mouths, the ultimate enemy was Braniac, who, in being finally defeated, would leave a world behind that didn't remember Superman - Another quote came from Morrison that Superman would have to build a bridge of memories across time to save the universe - which I believe tied in to the idea.

The thing with the Flash was a some cheesy wank where Barry Allen, Hal Jordan and Wally West have a long conversation and Wally asks Hal/The Spectre to make the world (including him) forget he was The Flash.

I like Bed Head's idea about naked Superman fetish crossovers. Clearly the Superman in only the cape has the advantage.

On a somewhat related note Superman/Batman #5 was a fun read today - including a scene with a white-haired Superman in the Mobius Chair. I love hearing all these status-quo writers like Loeb and Winick in interviews saying they're using Morrison's JLA run as a model for what they want in their superhero books. Only good can come from this... I hope...
 
 
diz
14:10 / 08.01.04
Actually, what they should really do, is split the Superman costume across three titles: so the main Superman comic has Kal-El naked except for the blue jersey with the ’S’

no, no, no. just the cape is fine, and bare-chested with the pants is OK too, but if there's one thing i've learned from going to Burning Man, it's that seeing a middle-aged white guy walking around wearing nothing but a shirt with no pants is a Bad Thing.
 
  

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