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Where the buggeration do Dreams come from?

11:59 / 04.01.04

No, I don't mean the big obvious ones - ie. you shagging an enormous pair of breasts after beating your Dad at a game of conkers (obviously a poetic rendition of the Oedipus complex). I mean the little weird images and sequences which make NO SENSE WHATSOEVER. The other night I woke from a sequence which involved a team of men playing some kind of weird competive game which involved sliding over some sort of pitch so they'd all heavily greased their feet. I mean, wha' the hootin' heck is that about? I don't actually want someone to analyze this for me (please), I just want to know why the fuck is that happening in my head? I just wondered if anybody had ever come across any research or writing on the function of this aspect of dreaming, this mad unconscious creativity? It's relatively easy to see which parts of dreams relate to, or are reactions to, your day to day experience, but at the same time I think it's easy to disregard these other completely insane, bonkers streams of images.

I actually would be surprised if there is any research on this aspect of our psyches, precisely because it is so obscure and seems to have little use value or utility - whereas with say, lucid dreaming, you can package it up as the ultimate in wish fulfillemnt, and use it to sell people books or gadgets to induce this state. Any ideas? I've a feeling my best port of call here would be the Surrealists - any other ideas?

On this note, I'd add that I think we actually have several different distinct types of dream. One is the day to day digestion of events as alluded to above, another would be dreams of powerful archetypes, which can occur spontaneous or when you start to internalise magickal symbolism. A third type would be dreams that occur when you oversleep - these often seem very surreal and take the form of lengthy quests or adventures, these always feel to me like I'm telling myself stories in my sleep as I'm so near to waking. Filling in time before I wake up. Anyone got any more catergories?

15:08 / 04.01.04

There's a school of thought that says that one of the main functions of dreaming is to link disparate ideas in new ways, and that this is essential to our ability to adapt and be creative. So it could be that the totally off-the-wall things that we experiece are unprecedented for the sake of being unprecedented, useful in that they remind us of exactly what's possible (as well as in the usual symbolic sense).

I've probably got more to say, but not enough time in which to say it. I'll come back to the thread later.

16:53 / 04.01.04

Check out a book called 'Man And His Symbols', by Carl Jung.

17:32 / 04.01.04

Basically when your dreamming your subconscious mind throw's up all sorts of shit, and it depends on the state of mind your in. The coincedences (two or more things that are beyond the relms of chance) that occur in your dreams, usualy expressed symbolicly, are conscious associations unique to the dreammer. Most of the time its a load of shit but sometimes someting happens and you cant help but think theres something more going on. I've had some crazy dreams and its those dreams that tend to stick in my mind. I'll wake up and think 'what the fuck was all that about', Then something will happen in the future and all the symbolism will fall into place.

trouser the trouserian

17:39 / 04.01.04

Illmatic, just acquired Dreams, Illusions and other Realities by Wendy Doniger O'Flaherty, which is primarily looking at the role of dreams/dreaming in Indian religion, philosophy, & art. Looks fascinating. More when I've had chance to read some of it.

10:13 / 05.01.04

Cheers for the answers peeps. What I'm trying to get at is a where/why for all the bizarre stuff that comes up - the "load of shit" stuff, where does it come from? Why? I don't want to explain the purpose underlying dream symbolism, that's a different aspect of dreaming. Presumably all the nonsense must be produced by some part of our brain, so which part? I would say that the only purpose in it would be somehow linked with our creativity as Seth posits.

Another idea, completely made up on the spot. I wonder if this random imagery is simply a product of our biological/metabolic activity of our brain, keeping us alive as we sleep. Maybe there's a certain amount of "energy" in the brain system that doesn't go anywhere, kinda like the heat generated when running any other physical process. This energy then encounters our sensorium where it is "converted" to random weirdness. This makes sense to me, have no idea if it will to anyone else tho' - memories of the day, creative linakge, archetypal symbolism then colasece on top of this imagery.

Skeleton Camera

13:42 / 05.01.04

The 'random imagery' angle is my understanding of such things. I
get this a lot if I wake up and then fall back to sleep - not entering an
REM or deep sleep state but floating on the surface, as it were. Then
come the super-bizarre "collage" dreams, which usually are a very
random blend of recent experiences and perennial psychological issues.
Rarely any archetypes present or any "needed" messages.

I don't know the mechanics of this, though, ie what chemicals control
this random firing.

14:08 / 05.01.04

Dreams come from The Psyche - part and parcel of the subconscious, the Psyche is tied into the larger universe and spiritual world. Spirits, godforms, ghosts, your own intellectual brain, your wants/needs/fears/desires/life lessons, psychic knowledge, astral tethers - everything that's all part of the Big G (God, not Galactus, silly) is connected to your dreams. And sometimes dreams can be just meaningless bibble-blabble images, too, I think (maybe this is where the random chemical neutron firing comes in).

That's my take on it, at least. But what if the 'random' crazy images that seem to have nothing to do with anything really do have some meaning??

18:36 / 05.01.04

In the same vein, but a little off topic... I think that we know very little about the actual function of sleep and dreams. We assume that dreams serve the function of messages between our unconscious/subconscious and our conscious thoughts. Interesting to see a new pharmaceutical on the market called Provigil (Modafinil), which removes the body's craving to sleep. When ingested (apparently) the subject feels rested and focused as if they got a whole nights sleep. I think I read somewhere that some country's armed forces are using this to create the 'ultimate' solider who needs little sleep to function. Maybe as this drug is used more, the function(s) of sleep and dreaming will be more clearly defined.

19:53 / 05.01.04

I think some dreams can act out as wierd surrealist psychodrama's that may act as some sort of psychological catharsis, but some can seem heavilly fucked up??!!! I've got HGA's and spirit guides (what's the difference?) from some good dreams and have received mantrums for meditation. But some dreams do leave me cold with the feeling of "what the fuck???". There's a TV programme called Shattered which is about sleep deprivation - I think people have to dream, so therefore they have to sleep - unless yer a raging meth head who day dreams alot!!!!
Certain dreams can act as focal points for in-depth research and you can divine good stuff from them. Or they can be pure entertainment.

09:16 / 08.01.04

Maybe there's a certain amount of "energy" in the brain system that doesn't go anywhere

So dreaming is like Economy 7, then?

12:10 / 08.01.04

Well I think you could capture that energy by writing it down - alot of creativity and ideas can be inspired by dreaming. I'm amazed at other people's dreams as well. Do you think there may be a connection between the DMT part of our brain receptors and the archetypal world of dreaming? Say when yer like at deep mind or sommat like that either thru meditataion, hitech support (dream machines, tapes, etc...), drugs, gnosis, etc....? Some peeps could say that its vibrations from the egregore of the subconcious - whatever.....

12:56 / 08.01.04

Well, I've smoked DMT once and it's completely alien, much more extreme and different than any state I've reached in dreaming. It's the most thorougly "other" experience I've ever had. It defintely "reaches the parts other drugs do not reach" so I don't know if there coming from the same place - might be some overlap tho'.

18:52 / 16.01.04

This is from my dream journal blog. An entry from just a few days ago.

"Setting bricks in a border. The start of a wall. I realize that it is better to alternate the bricks instead of stacking one atop the other."

Writing this blog has brought me to the realization that everything in dreams, indeed everything in life, can be taken as a symbol for something else. Looking back over my journal recently reminded me of how many times I would take a seemingly inconsequential image or phrase and build it into a dream of outlandish proportion. Filtered through my own peculiarly-shaped sieve, the world takes on meaning. It's hard to tell where the intrinsic value of one image ends and it's symbolic correspondent begins. So when I find myself constructing the border of the garden we plan to start this year, I have to wonder what that symbolizes for me. Today I don't have any answers. The best I can offer is that I may have some structures who's construction is faulty, and that luckily, it'll only take a small shift to make them strong and able to withstand the elements.

Where does this stuff come from? Everywhere and nowhere. Useful? Hell yeah.

If you want to see more of my subconcious, head to:

http://www.plastichassle.com/mt_blogs/dreamjournal/ (Sorry for the text link)

23:11 / 16.01.04

Illmatic wrote:
Well, I've smoked DMT once and it's completely alien, much more extreme and different than any state I've reached in dreaming.

Ah, not to sideline your original query, but I've had a handful of dreams where I've ingested substances. Acid, mushrooms, weed, and DMT - pretty faithfully recreated. Very very interesting to see how the mind can replicate these experiences internally without the exogenous chemical precursors. Lends some creadence to the notion of "chemical keys"...The drugs merely act as the catalyst to begin a chemical subroutine in the nervous system. Like dreams, the mind tries to heap meaning on top of seemingly unrestrained or novel neurochemistry.

Interesting too to note the role of the pineal gland in dreaming. Melatonin, serotonin, tryptamine...

02:06 / 17.01.04

I'll agree with LVX23 on the way the dreaming mind can replicate chemical experience. For me its mainly pot/THC. It can replicate it exactly, to the point of waking up with a hang over.

I also find it fascinating that a dream can exactly replicate reality. I had a lucid dream where I tested the reality levels. I was standing in a square stone courtyard surrounded by tree in autumn. I looked at the perspective of two tree against each other. It was exact. The branches, the falling leaves, all of it. I moved around to see if perspective held, which it did. An exact replica of reality, everytime we sleep. I was amazed.

14:50 / 17.01.04

Well on Thursday morning (16th January 2004) I had a dream sequence where my dick was split in two and that when erect I could make good celtic knots designs with them!!!! (the 2 phalluses that is!) It was very impressive - as if I was play-acting my fakir self in the dreaming!!!!! Or was it some replay of "Modern Primitives" from years ago?????? The day before I was musing about gemder and that so mebbe that was that!!!!

Bard: One-Man Humaton Hoedown

16:59 / 24.01.04

Had a weird dream two nights ago. That night I'd been told that my dorm was apparently haunted (several girls were freaking out and saying their room was haunted, etc.). Unsurprisingly, that night I dreamed of going ghost hunting (of course, the place I was hunting it THROUGH bore more resemblence to a Hogwarts dormitory than my own [which looks like it might at one point have been a cheap, shitty hotel]). That's not the weird thing.

The weird thing is that when I found the ghost I began to speak in what I assumed at first to be tongues. Then I realized the word that I was repeating at it as I exorcised it was "Mictlan, Mictlan, Mictlan" and then some word that began with "Mictlan" but was longer. Might have been Mictlanuchutli (or however it's pronounced), but I don't think so.

I've been thinking about dreams latley in that regard. I tend to have a lot of dreams about flying, walking through walls, magical rituals, and combat (most often sword or gun). I've begun to ponder whether those dreams are really dreams, or instructional downloads by someone else that wants me to learn those skills. When I'm flying, I can feel that part of my brain, like a switch, being flipped on and off. I can feel that switch in my head during the day, when I'm awake, but I can't seem to flip it on. Same with walking through walls.

A recent study apparently showed that people DO, in fact, work out the days problems in their dreams. Makes you wonder, doesn't it?

moonlapse minkey

20:36 / 10.02.04

There are a few Neurobiological theories into the randomness of some dreams...

McCarley + Hobson Have an Activation - Synthesis Theory. During REM sleep random discharges from the nerve cells occur. These outbursts stimulate the cortex (especially the areas associated with sight, sound and memory). We need to make sense of these random firings so we draw on existing knowledge to create a slightly more coherent story.

I quite like this theory because , surely not every dream means something??

20:49 / 10.02.04

I think that with our activities in everyday life being so 'order' based the other side of the brain makes up for this in sleep by creating, and the level of madness in the dream could actually show how imbalanced we are.

For instance, a really far out 'WTF?' dream could mean that we haven't been creative enough lately and the brain makes up for this by making us have these types of dreams to restore the balance.

moonlapse minkey

20:57 / 10.02.04

It could just be the brain having some time off and not really caring what sense anything makes to us...it needs some time off after all :P

21:59 / 10.02.04

It could just be the brain having some time off and not really caring what sense anything makes to us...it needs some time off after all :P

Dreaming is hardly time off. Its only time off when you forget the dream. For me its getting very much like being awake but wierder!!!

moonlapse minkey

06:02 / 11.02.04

It's more 'time off' in the sense that although you are still having the images etc, they appear on no particular order and therefore don't make sense... obviously this doesn't account for every kind of dream - just the ones menioned earlier. I agree though.... my dreams completely do my head in - I have vivid ones nearly every night...

07:48 / 11.02.04

Here's a idea. I haven't put a great deal of thought into, but seems relevant to the topic, and goes along with everyone elses thinking.

So, The human mind is ALWAYS looking for patterns right? Well, I think that dreams are definitely part of that as well. We're seeing all this random stuff throughout the day, and our dreams are a way of processing all that so we can guess where it's all headed next. And it IS all prophetic, just not necssarily anything about us.
THAT SAID, humans also have a habit of getting it wrong, so take it all with a pinch of salt.

Just my guess though. Someones probably written a paper on the same sort of theory anyway.

10:45 / 11.02.04

Dreaming is hardly time off. Its only time off when you forget the dream. For me its getting very much like being awake but weirder!!!

LOL I totally second that!

If you think about all the extraneous information our brains are fed everyday but that we really don't need (such as the flash of a yellow coat you briefly saw when you were walking down the street, or the numberplate of a car you happened to be following, or the overheard conversation that you weren't even paying attention to) then you realise that it all has to 'go' somewhere in our heads. All the sensory input we receive everyday is taken in and then needs sorting (and a lot of it discarding), but it would be impossible to consciously do that because you would be asking yourself to unthink your thoughts.

So, I quite like the idea that some passive dreaming experiences (i.e. not during lucidity or prophetic dreaming) are a way of giving your brain time to file all the information taken in, in order that it can function properly. Each time you sleep you file information from the previous time you were awake, and all the random everyday things that have happened which you have remembered but don't neccesarily need to store, get sorted.

Maybe when you passively dream your brain is actually going, need, need, might keep, discard, definitely keep just the same way you would if you were physically going through a file on your computer. The random entries you sometimes get in your dreams, (like the girl you went to school with 10 years ago or whatever, which make you think 'where the hell did that come from?') relate to when your brain is doing a proper mass clear out; so old memories or thoughts are being re-examined, and updated.

I like this idea because it doesn't interfere with the theory that our dreams mean something, only that sometimes our brains need to examine information, assess whether to keep it, and correctly file it in the appropriate place.

And it would also explain how are brains are kept fairly clear of 'junk'!