BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


America What Time is Love?

 
 
gornorft
10:48 / 02.01.04
An Aeromexico flight to Los Angeles from Mexico City has been cancelled twice in two days amid security concerns, officials say. Flight 490 was first cancelled on Wednesday afternoon after a call from US Homeland Security officials.

British Airways (BA) cancelled one of its three daily flights from London to Washington on Thursday following security advice from the US government.

US fighter jets escorted a British Airways passenger plane to Washington's international airport where it was detained on the tarmac so its 247 passengers could be questioned by federal agents. No arrests were made.

On Monday local time, the US Government announced it would require foreign airlines to place armed security guards aboard flights into or out of the United States when it deemed it necessary.

US F-16 fighter jets escorted at least two Air France planes bound for Los Angeles on Tuesday and Wednesday.

US President George W Bush says Pakistan's nuclear arsenal is "secure".
"We're hopeful that the Indians and Pakistanis, in upcoming meetings, will be able to begin a dialogue on a variety of issues," Mr Bush said after an afternoon hunting quail with his father, former president George Bush in Falfurrias in Texas.

The US Coast Guard, citing the nation's elevated terror status, said it had ordered a major oil tanker terminal on Alaska's south shore shut down for security reasons.

Starting from Monday, people who need visas to enter the United States will be fingerprinted and photographed when they pass through immigration at major US airports and seaports.
Federal Judge Julier Sebastiao da Silva ordered Brazil's authorities do the same to US citizens.
.............................................................................

And that's all just from TODAYS news as reported here in Australia!

Who needs terrorists when America does such a great job of disrupting the actions of the rest of the planet all on its own? I'd like to see Pakistans leader expressing satisfaction at the state of the US nuclear weaponry after hunting gerbils with his uncle (I'd really love to see international weapons inspectors even TRY to get permission to know what weapons America has!). I'd like to see France telling American flights that they can't come to Paris (I'm sure a lot of French people would enjoy that too). I'd like to see UK fighter jets escorting flights from Washington to the ground and detaining US citizens for 5 hours interrogation and fingerprinting and see where it gets them!

It's 2004! What the fuck's going on?
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
18:18 / 02.01.04
Maybe this will help. Actually, no it doesn't. Sorry.
 
 
FinderWolf
19:03 / 02.01.04
Um, they're doing this BECAUSE of terrorist threats. Would you rather have another mass episode of murder and destruction or deal with inconveniences?

If France, Paris or Australia were the main targets of large-scale terrorist attacks, I bet you'd see similar things happening. This is not to say that I like the Bush gov't, far from it. But I would argue that cancelling a few flights is a lot different than say, car bombing places or 9/11.
 
 
diz
19:32 / 02.01.04
Um, they're doing this BECAUSE of terrorist threats. Would you rather have another mass episode of murder and destruction or deal with inconveniences?

yes, but most of the hate directed at us is rooted in the fact that we're arrogant, xenophobic fuckwads. this doesn't help, frankly.

besides, airline security, for the most part, is shit, because the job is essentially impossible without shutting down commercial air travel, and the new restrictions don't actually make us any safer.
 
 
FinderWolf
19:41 / 02.01.04
oh, believe me, I agree with the reasons that terrorists are upset with America in the first place. But given the present situation, I'd much rather have them cancel a flight if they feel something is seriously up than risk another major attack.

Well, I agree that it's near-impossible to prevent something from ever happening again and I agree that most airline screening is shit, but there hasn't been another major attack on airlines since 9/11, so SOMETHING must be working, however small.

I just saw a story on Yahoo News five seconds ago that British Airways cancelled another flight - this one from the UK to Saudi Arabia. In the article it mentions that the US had "very specific" intelligence that one of the cancelled flights to Washington D.C. was possibly going to be used to crash into something in D.C. So hey, if they feel they've got serious enough intelligence to warrant the massive inconvenience of cancelling a flight, they must really be concerned (just cause they're bureaucrats and government officials doesn't mean they're COMPLETELY clueless about how much this will piss travelers off in a case like this, give them SOME credit for knowing they're going to piss off their constituents).
 
 
Tryphena Absent
20:30 / 02.01.04
I think that cancelling flights is far preferable to having men with guns on board under the pretence that they can protect passengers. The very notion that a terrorist or group of terrorists planning to crash a plane could be stopped by one person seems ludicrous and I'd rather planes just didn't fly. Having said that the authorities so far have admitted that intelligence with regards to the BA flights in particular is vague at best and you can't help but wonder what kind of loose information they're basing these cancellations on especially when they've failed to arrest anyone from any of the flights.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
20:54 / 02.01.04
Anyone mind if I bung this in Switchboard? It's the kind of thing we could do with more of over there.
 
 
Linus Dunce
15:55 / 03.01.04
... most of the hate directed at us is rooted in the fact that we're arrogant, xenophobic fuckwads. this doesn't help, frankly.

Of course we are to some extent, but don't you think increased western containment and polarisation were entirely predictable outcomes of 9/11 etc? What reason have we for believing the terrorists thought otherwise?
 
 
Tryphena Absent
18:27 / 03.01.04
don't you think increased western containment and polarisation were entirely predictable outcomes of 9/11 etc?

I'm not sure that you can apply that kind of thought to this kind of action. We have no real or sound information as to Al Qaeda's purpose, they rarely claim their actions in the normal way and as far as I can make out their major purpose seems to be revenge against Westernisation. So who's to say what they expected from 9/11 when they have never stated any aim or indeed clearly and concretely stated that it was anything to do with them at all. What reason can we discern from the lack of information that the public have concerning this organisation or indeed this type of terrorism?
 
 
Linus Dunce
01:24 / 04.01.04
So, they do not state an aim, therefore their aim is revenge? Or are you saying that planning and executing 9/11 was a crime of passion? Or is it that they are not capable of foreseeing the results of their actions?

Because I personally don't believe they are that emotional or stupid.
 
 
bjacques
13:18 / 04.01.04
From what I'd heard via various news sources, this was sort of "Helter Skelter," a provocation to spark the Final War between Christendom and community of Islam (with Manson it was about a race war, or maybe a failed record deal). More specific than that, who knows? Was 11 September supposed to inspire other Muslims to spontaneously start targeting infidels? Since the job had apparently been planned for awhile, the mix of greed, testosterone and stupidity of the Bush administration must have been an unexpected bonus. We overreacted enough to confirm some Arabs' bad opinions of us, we damaged relations with other western countries and we've written Sharon's government a blank check in Palestine. Sure, al-Qaeda got a country shot out from them (for now), but they might have been kicked out eventually anyway.

Sorry, but after these flight disruptions, Homeland Security had better cough up some suspects quick. That's not likely, considering France let their suspects go for lack of evidence. I'm glad I flew out when I did.
 
 
sleazenation
14:41 / 04.01.04
ignatius j said So, they do not state an aim, therefore their aim is revenge? Or are you saying that planning and executing 9/11 was a crime of passion? Or is it that they are not capable of foreseeing the results of their actions?

Its not so much that those responsible for the september 11th attacks (and by responsible i mean the men on the planes) were or weren't capable of foreseeing the results of their actions, more that they didn't care about anything beyond hurting the country they saw as their enemy, one aim they certainly did achieve.
 
 
Linus Dunce
16:30 / 04.01.04
But it didn't hurt the country they hate, the United States of America is still very much there and many times as aggressive as before.

I do not understand why the terrorists, whoever they were or whatever their underlying passion, should not be assumed to have been rational, intelligent human beings.
 
 
w1rebaby
17:27 / 04.01.04
Actually, I seem to recall that the al Qaeda organisation have several clearly-expressed and defined goals, not to do with destroying America but rather demanding American withdrawal from the Middle East - not supporting Israel, pulling out of Saudi and so on (don't have a list to hand at the moment but I'll look for one). Which stands to reason. People don't often form and particularly support paramilitary groups without a physical and relatively immediate cause. You could take neo-Nazis as an example of this; there are a very few around who actively work towards a world-wide race war, and quite a few who would like one or see it as inevitable, but the majority of neo-Nazi action (political and physical) is aimed at immediate targets like immigrants.

However, it's clearly not a good tactic for the US administration to suggest that "terrorists" might not be irrational, since it doesn't give them a free hand, and it doesn't suit their goal of promoting the idea that all terrorists are al Qaeda and al Qaeda are all terrorists (terrorists being people who oppose US interests, of course). It's the same as insisting that Palestinian violence is a product of a desire to see the Jews driven into the sea and has nothing to do with, say, the occupation of Palestine - they're all mad fanatic homicide bombers. It's also a tactic that is used against any opposition, in a more limited sense. Europeans who criticise Israel or the US are actually only expressing self-hatred over the Holocaust, or envy, or whatever. Democrats and liberals, similarly, are acting out self-loathing. Not really a new tactic, but I think helped by the permeation of psychobabble throughout the modern media.

Anyway, planes: I flew back to Philly yesterday on BA from Heathrow and to be honest, it wasn't much different from usual. Check-in was a nightmare as usual but mostly because people don't know how to use the express check-in machines. I got through security in a few minutes (I'm getting very quick at going through metal detectors, though, and they're much quicker at Heathrow than in any of the US airports I've been through). Immigration took bloody ages to get through but mostly because the immigration officer was bloody useless; other queues were going down ten times quicker.

I did have to get fingerprints taken and stand in front of a webcam, though, which I hate, and is utterly pointless. It will have as much effect on security as banning nailfiles. I can't even really see the point of it from a paranoid they-are-after-our-civil-liberties point of view - it's purely for show. In fact, at the moment I assume that *every* terrorist alert is purely for show, to justify the latest change in the alert level or just to maintain the general level of fear and paranoia that is essential to maintaining domestic support for the administration's actions, and until I see some actual evidence I am going to assume that this is exactly the same. There never actually seems to be any at all, from the start of this whole affair.
 
 
w1rebaby
17:29 / 04.01.04
oh, and I didn't see any sky marshalls

I'm actually more pissed off about the exchange rate, which made my Christmas and New Year cost about 50% more than they otherwise would have, and almost wiped out the point of getting duty free. I bet it will carry on until just after I leave and have to change all my dollar savings to pounds, at which point it will become sane again. Fuckers.
 
 
Linus Dunce
00:08 / 05.01.04
But it was Tryphena and Sleaze implying the terrorists weren't rational in this instance, not the US govt., or even me. Perhaps then the concept of irrationality suits the left as well. Paint the hijackers as passionate desperados and you can say what you like about the motivations, from either side -- "The hijackers couldn't say why they crashed the planes into the towers but we know it was because they hated [Freedom|Globalism|Arsenal|Marmite]"

So if you could find and post the al Qaeda manifesto, that would be cool.
 
 
sleazenation
08:31 / 05.01.04
NO ignatius, I don't think i was implying a lack of rationality. I remain unconvinced that a suicide attack is only ever an irrational act. Perhaps you could unpack your reasoning on rationality a little.

I claimed that the hi-jackers wanted to hurt what they viewed as an 'enemy'. I thought this a pretty basic and obvious observation while judgements on longer term aims are impossible to prove. Was even this an extrapolation too far?
 
 
w1rebaby
10:46 / 05.01.04
This is an example of the sort of thing I mean, and also rather frustrating.

LONDON, England (CNN) -- A new statement purported to be from the terrorist network al Qaeda warns the United States to "stop your support for Israel against the Palestinians, for Russians against the Chechens and leave us alone, or expect us in Washington and New York."

"Do not force us to ship you in coffins," it says.

Chief investigative correspondent Yosri Fouda, for the Qatar-based Al-Jazeera satellite television station told CNN he received the document "through previously tested channels" and believes it to be authentic. CNN had no way to verify the authenticity of the statement.

Fouda says the document appears to be an attempt by al Qaeda to explain its intentions and demands, and it warns what will happen if those demands are not answered.

"They are posing two questions in their words and I quote: 'Why are we in jihad and why are we resisting you?' and secondly, 'To what are we inviting you and what do we want from you?'"


We don't actually ever get to see these al Qaeda releases, though (presumably since they might contain "coded messages"). I'll see if I can do a bit better later on.
 
 
Linus Dunce
11:07 / 05.01.04
I don't know why you are writing as if I were arguing that the terrorists were irrational, Sleaze.

I saying I would rather give them the benefit of the doubt over them being intelligent human beings. If you want to believe it's just as likely that they can't work complicated stuff out in their heads, fine. But I don't think you do.

Rational's in the dictionary, BTW.
 
 
gornorft
07:41 / 06.01.04
I'm surprised to see that this inflammatory post started what has turned out to be a serious political debate, and by all means don't let me interrupt you, but I'd just quickly like to address a few things.

Although the cancellation of several flights featured heavily in the list of news items I cut and pasted directly from the major Australian news site one night, what I objected to more was:
The incredible LIST of stories involving security measures and reactions that were reported on the same day;
The extreme invasion of innocent peoples rights involved in some of the stories (fingerprinting photographing, detaining, interrogating... etc);
The spectacularly heavy handed approach taken with fighter planes escorting domestic flights to the ground, not to protect them but to intercept them and interfere with the actions of the innocent people on board;
The incredible arrogance of making comment and judgement on the weaponry of another nation by a country with the biggest, deadliest, most powerful and secret arsenal in the world;
And the general, I dunno, PARANOIA of it all!

I could understand the interruption of a few international flights. Fine. But at what stage does this sort of reaction to something that happened years ago become more of a problem than what started it in the first place?

Rather that do anything to address the reasons why terrorists started their spectacular campaign, as discussed elsewhere in this thread, what we got instead is a couple of wars (still works in progress) and a generally invasive and hostile treatment of anyone that dares to continue to find those nasty bomb-like devices, planes, useful, or has a name that sounds like it could belong to a terrorist, or has a different religious belief or system of government.

I know I'm attacking America here but that's not because of anything inherent in Americans, as such. It's simply because, by sheer wealth and might, they are the ones calling the shots internationally these days. Britain has done some stupid things too and Australia does little else internationally, ever! But nobody pays much attention to what Australia has to say and Britain isn't the superpower it was in the days of the Empire. This isn't specifically about America so much as it is about the use of available power and the opportunistic grabs to extend it wherever possible. Slowly but surely, well not even that slowly really, everyones rights are being eroded in the name of security and the war against terror. There has to be a limit.

I'll bet the terrorists are pissing themselves with laughter.
 
 
Naked Flame
08:38 / 06.01.04
The cancellations and increased security measures certainly don't make the US look good. And they cost a fuckload (both in immediate terms and in terms of damaging the travel industry.) So I don't think the US govt. is being gratuitous here- they must have valid concerns. The sky marshals (in plain clothes, Fridge) are a humungously bad idea though.

I remember when the IRA was much more active in the UK and the strategy then was to issue about ten bomb threats to every actual explosion. I think that whoever the terrorists are, they believe that their purpose is effectively served by tightening the screw on the West's well developed paranoia complex.

With the IRA we used to wait for phone calls and code words, which was pretty straightforward. Now the security forces can monitor pretty much any email or phone conversation they like, imagine how many more shadows there are to jump at...
 
 
Ray Fawkes
11:11 / 06.01.04
There is data to indicate that El Al (Israel's national airline) can credit much of its successes in deterring terrorist activity on flights to their armed marshals - they've been employing them (as well as locked, reinforced cockpit doors) for over 30 years. Apparently, they receive "daily" threats, but there hasn't been a serious, successful incident since the 1970's.
 
 
w1rebaby
15:02 / 06.01.04
I hear rumours that the "cancelled due to terrorist threat" BA flights weren't cancelled for those reasons - rather that the pilots refused to fly with armed marshals on board, as their union is urging. Certainly Thomas Cook is saying it's not going to put marshals on its flights, and some other countries are refusing to do so for any.
 
 
Oresa delta 20
17:11 / 06.01.04
Just read that Federal Air Marshalls (their motto being "unseen, unheard, unafraid") have been identified by passengers on various flights since 9/11 on more than 300 ocasions. These guys are trying to be profesional, yet they have been known to freely identify themselves to the public so many times. In addition to this, they are trained to shoot terrorists three times: twice in the chest, and once in the head. They are armed with 9mm sidearms as standard, but can upgrade these to 12.5mm sidearms if they wish. If you shoot someone in the head with a 9mm weapon, the bullet passes through the skull, and exits through the opposite side of the head. The bullet then hits either the feuselage of the aircraft, or another passenger. Does anyone really need that?? security on aircraft is tight enough. i can't get a pair of nail scissors on a flight, let alone a firearm. Why do air marshalls need to be armed with weapons that have the potential to bring an entire airliner out of the sky?? Paranoia in the white house is wreaking havoc among the masses. If George W had to fly the same way everyone else did, he'd realise i't's a stupid, pointless waste of time. Al-Qaida aren't going to use planes again. They've already played that card. Next time it's going to be a WMD in a major city. Perhaps a dirty bomb, or maybe a biological threat, but it's not going to come from the sky. Let us fly in peace. We are not terrorists, and the only reason terrorists would want to fly on your airlines is to get to their training grounds. They're not really terrorists anyway, they're fighting for the freedom of religion that Dubya doesn't want Islamic nations to have. If i had the choice between dying for america, or dying for iran, i'd choose iran anyday. Leave me be, and know that that the stars and stripes is doused in petrol, and burning brightly in my garden.
 
 
w1rebaby
18:07 / 06.01.04
I believe they use ceramic bullets which are designed to fragment on hitting a hard object, preventing ricochets and depressurisation. However there's always going to be a certain risk involved in firing a gun on a plane, and also in carrying a gun on a plane.

I personally don't think "sky marshals" will make much difference one way or the other, and I don't think the USG seriously thinks they will either. It's 100% a PR move to maintain the idea that we are constantly under attack by terrorists, and assure the domestic population that they are doing something about it.
 
 
Linus Dunce
19:25 / 06.01.04
Beyond checking the identity of passengers and screening for weapons, there's bugger all that can be done I think. Air marshals, arresting people for making hijacking jokes and ordering passengers to flush their pet fish or catch the bus are all designed to show frequent flyers, i.e. the educated, liberal, middle classes, who is boss.

1950s containment, with relational databases and 2 GHz computers.
 
 
w1rebaby
22:14 / 06.01.04
Quite.

Although I comfort myself with the fact that they probably don't really know how to use the databases, and the contractors who are getting rich off defence money are scamming them to fuck. Still, that's what it's about, isn't it? The same old way of diverting public money to private bodies.

Quite scary how many companies are retooling themselves to be "defense-oriented". I understand that Accenture are concentrating almost their entire business on it now.
 
 
bjacques
08:25 / 07.01.04
That and outsourcing consultation.

An incompetent police state? Sounds like "Brazil."

"...and here's my receipt for your receipt."
 
 
sleazenation
21:39 / 07.01.04
not wishing to derail the current stream of the thread, but i wanted to set the record straight on Ingnatius J's assertion that

I don't know why you are writing as if I were arguing that the terrorists were irrational, Sleaze.


Chiefly because I wasn't.

ignatius J stated that

it was Tryphena and Sleaze implying the terrorists weren't rational in this instance

to which i replied

NO ignatius, I don't think i was implying a lack of rationality.

So, once more with feeling, I don't think i accused you of claiming anyone was behaving irrationally. I was stating that *I* did not think that I was claiming that they were irrational.
 
 
gornorft
08:33 / 09.01.04
When was the last time you heard a government issue the following statement, or anything even remotely like it...
"We have decided that the situation that caused us to assume the power to do something really intrusive into everyones lives is over. We therefore rescind our rights in this area. We aplogise for any inconvenience caused in the interim."

NEVER!

Once "they" have the power to do anything (ANYTHING!), that power will be held onto for the rest of our lives. Do we really want a world where "friendly" governments have carte blanche to photograph, fingerprint, detain, interrogate, arrest, delay the flights of, invade and then occupy the countries of, examine the leaders of for head lice on television, install their own choice of government and governmental system and just generally do any damn thing they think will make the world a nicer place to live in within their own political and idealistic vision of things of any citizens of any nation they decide they have a problem with?

I fucking don't!

How the hell do we stop this before we all have no rights to do anything or hold any opinions that are anti-governmental at all?
 
 
gornorft
08:42 / 09.01.04
and yes I know I construct very long and complicated sentences but I do try to make sure they end up masking sense when you get to the end, even if only when read from within my own mind. I apologise for any inconvenience caused.
 
 
doc
11:54 / 13.02.04
the whole terrorism thing reminds me of the scene/theme in baron munchausen of "the enemy behind the gate"...keep the population in a state of constant fear it makes them easier to control...blue alerts ,red alerts ..do us a favour...next they will be wheelin out the hooded claw..

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3472265.stm

where are the sky marshalls when you need them
 
  
Add Your Reply