BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


Underground > Temple >

Discipline

  
 
EvskiG
16:01 / 31.12.03
What role does discipline play in magic?

In sports, art, and lord knows how many other fields you need to learn and rigorously develop the fundamentals before you can excel. You have to walk before you can run.

A mere neophyte in a hardcore ceremonial magic group like Chic Cicero's Golden Dawn is expected to practice Crowley's solar adorations four times daily, stillness meditation twice daily, the Lesser Banishing Ritual of the Pentagram daily, and quite a few other exercises from time to time. He or she also has to learn a fair amount of magical theory: the Hebrew alephbet, the classical elements, basic astrology and kabala, a bit of Egyptian mythology, the personae and attributions of the Neophyte Ceremony, etc.

A chaos magician could, of course, create a comparably rigorous program incorporating dream diaries, regular zen mediation and hatha yoga, exercises from Crowley's Liber III vel Jugorum or Carroll's Liber MMM, ritual use of psychedelics, voracious reading of works on occultism and altered consciousness, etc. The jazz musician to the Golden Dawn's classical musician.

Is this sort of rigor necessary? Is it helpful?

It seems to me that disciplined practice is the ideal way to develop one's will and imagination -- the two keys to practical work. Disciplined study of theory allows one to learn the best and most effective ways to direct one's will and imagination.

Or is a disciplined practitioner really no different than a first-time "wank-and-a-wish" sigil magician? Is discipline in a field as amorphous as magic really just self-delusion?

Any thoughts or personal anecdotes?
 
 
cusm
22:37 / 31.12.03
In martial arts, one pratices forms, kata, and similar routines. The exercise demands physical ability, but also trains each move into you until they are perfect, and can be launched without thought.

Bruce Lee hated forms. Programmed responses in fighting styles limits the fighter to reacting within the confines of that style. One isn't really reacting fully to the situation, using each move to its own best use. One is following rote. When one follows rote, one isn't really thinking, one is following a programmed response as if one is asleep. So, he was big on reacting with just moves, not routines or combos, so as to take a fresh approach to each unique situation, and thus beat the pants off more structured fighters. Flow like the water, and all that.

I think the example applies to magickal practice just as well. You need to discipline to learn the skills, but you also need to escape from the routine to truely think for yourself and act in an awakened manner. Programming should be followed by deprogramming.

The heavy structure never worked well for me. I have to do it because I'm inspired to, not because someone told me to. And if I want to take my sweet time with it, I will. But it has its uses.
 
 
Nietzsch E. Coyote
09:23 / 01.01.04
Personally I think that discipline is vital but it is a certain sort of discipline. The discipline of someone rowing upstream. Don't stop rowing, for if you do you find yourself going backwards. What stroke you choose to do matters less. Some are better than others but all are better than none.
 
 
Harold Washington died for you
09:58 / 01.01.04
w3Rd. Also it is usually helpful to excercise the dicpline required to master some skill to realize the futility of it all. When anything (anything) becomes second nature I guess you find the Universal Whatever at its core.

I pursued slack until it became a dicpline; it is hard work in its way, even if it is only scheming and elaborate daydreams. The pain and suffering part (in my case crushing depression and bad posture) of the dicpline is just proof that it'll do some good some day.
 
 
Harold Washington died for you
10:04 / 01.01.04
I can't spell discipline either. w3Rd.
 
 
Boy in a Suitcase
12:07 / 01.01.04
All together now: "You need... DISCIPLINE! We need... DISCIPLINE! I need... DISCIPLINE! IN HERE! IN HERE!"
 
 
h3r
14:10 / 02.01.04
cusm , well said....
my attitude towards life and everything i do has always been lacking a certain discipline...which has worked out quite well in some ways, especially in the arts....i have always been afraid of discipline limiting one's ability to think or act freely, being somewhat limited by pre-set ideals and ways of dealing with situations.at the same time lack of discipline has also blocked many paths.
i do see the benefits and importance of discipline these days. especially tarot meditations and other visualizations I practice rhave taken on a different value for me since I am "disciplined" with them.
i believe if one manages to detach from dogma and teachings(which require discipline to be thoroughly experienced or acquired) much can be gained...
a good balance between discipline and spur-of-the-moment- flexibility can take creativity, imagination, magick into higher realms.
 
 
EvskiG
16:05 / 02.01.04
Some interesting perspectives above.

Personally, I originally developed a fairly disciplined practice because -- probably as a result of reading Crowley, Regardie, "Modern Magick," etc. -- I wasn't really aware of any other approach. So for a couple of years I memorized correspondences, kept a detailed journal, did the Lesser Banishing Ritual of the Pentagram/Banishing Ritual of the Hexagram/Middle Pillar/Four Adorations/etc. etc. on a daily basis, with plenty of interesting or profound results.

All of that fell by the wayside when I started living with one girlfriend or another -- it's tough to balance a live-in relationship with prancing around the apartment in a robe with a dagger.

When I later became aware of chaos magic it hit me like a blow to the head. (I guess it's like a classical musician of middling talent first hearing jazz, or a conventional painter first seeing cubism.) Of COURSE I could modify works or rituals to fit my personal tastes, inclinations or style. Didn't Crowley do just that time and again? Of COURSE I could invoke Superman as a deity. What made him any more or less famous, fictional or finely-detailed than Zeus? Of COURSE the method of magic could be separated from the dogma with which it was associated. And so forth.

Since then I've had a lot of success with "freestyle" ritual work -- grab a post-it, scribble a sigil, and go. Explore the Tree of Life by assigning different DC superheroes to each sephira. And so forth.

But now, with a stable job, home life and relationship, I'm ready to get hardcore again. And I'm wondering how to go about it.

On one hand, I'm tempted to put together a solid, years-long curriculum that essentially focuses on serious Golden Dawn and A.:A.: ritual work and study. To re-learn and elaborate on my previous grounding in the classics, as it were.

On the other hand, I'm tempted to simply jump in to the deep end and create my own syncretic magical system. In some ways, this would be much harder, since it would require me to review all of what I've found useful over the years (yoga, Crowley, the Golden Dawn, chaos magic, etc.) and create a personal system from scratch. In other ways, it almost seems like a cheat -- a way of avoiding the work necessary to master the classic Western esoteric tradition.

On the third hand, maybe getting "hardcore" is simply the wrong way to approach magic at this time in my life. Maybe it would be better to simply maintain a "freestyle" approach where I do whatever ritual work or study seems appropriate at any given time, without any real system or planning. But this also seems like a cheat, and seems unlikely to allow me to really develop my knowledge and skills. (I've met far too many self-proclaimed magi who don't actually KNOW or DO much magic . . .)

On the fourth hand, maybe I'm just overthinking all of this.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
17:02 / 02.01.04
I think the Jeet Kun Do analogy only goes so far, because the concept of 'discipline' in practice extends further than the limitations thrown up by rote repetition of set forms, be they Karate katas or the LBRP. I think you have to have a high of discipline and determination to really get anywhere in magic, which is not necessarily the same thing as labouring through a Golden Dawn or A.'.A.'. curriculum of work.

Bruce Lee's system might be critical of set forms and learned responses, but it also strongly emphasises a strict regime of daily training. JKD is freestyle, but it's not slack on discipline, and I don't think the two should really be conflated.
 
 
Perfect Tommy
22:32 / 03.01.04
I think that getting angry with yourself and resolving to be more 'disciplined'—usually followed by failure to adhere to an overly restrictive schedule and more self-recrimination—is something that we don't need more of. (Is it coincidence that this thread showed up around New Year's resolution time?)

Let's look at the musical instrument metaphor. One kid might dutifully pull out their horn for lessons and for the requisite practice time, and never touch it for fun. Another kid might never 'practice' as such, but is capable of starting a punk band in which the skill may be lacking but there is actual music.

The first kid has discipline, but isn't really deriving the benefits of playing an instrument—he's never blissing out in his room on whatever he's capable of playing. The other kid is getting to express himself, and that's what music is for; however, he will eventually run up against the limits of his musical knowledge, and either accept his limitations, become frustrated and stop, or start woodshedding and really learn his instrument.

Now replace the horn with the wand. It is good to have regular practice at something—meditation, at the very least. But I don't see much benefit in a linear path of 'first master X, then master Y, then you can do something interesting'—that would be like requiring yourself to play all the scales before you were allowed to play a song, whereas in typical musical training you learn a dumb three note song, then you learn some more of the scale and learn a five note song, then you learn the whole scale and a more complicated song, now a new scale, and so on.

I don't mean to knock discipline—woodshedding is important at a certain point—but I think that trying to adhere to an overambitious regimen is responsible for a lot of unnecessary dropouts.
 
 
Bard: One-Man Humaton Hoedown
19:58 / 06.01.04
To elaborate on what Tommy said, I think that disicipline is something that builds in stages, and it doesn't have to be big and obvious. Telling yourself that you're going to meditate for 10 minutes a day is discipline, and it probably will eventually help you with your magic when you get into the habit of regularly centering yourself for meditation. Perhaps after a while you decide that you're going to take this further, and decide that you're going to meditate for 15 minutes and focus on developing your internal energies. You begin to go up in stages until you're spending half an hour a day meditating and doing different workings. In this way discipline could be beneficial, becuase if nothing else it builds up the willpower to hold down a routine.

At the same time, though, magic is incredibly dynamic and becomes, I think, less effective when bound by rote and rule. Specific spells and workings with specific wordings and rituals work quite well for some, and I'm not going to knock them becuase I know people who are a whole lot better than me when it comes to ritual magic, and they use discipline more than I do. But at the same time, magic is organic and being able to be dynamic with it, not holding to specific workings but rather to a general purpose, provides much greater freedom for the magician.

Evskig, I agree with changing things around sometimes. I also agree on the comic-book-heroes-as-gods/totems part, and I think that's a prime example of dynamic magic in action, being able and willing to change things to serve in a situation rather than having a set of workings that are going to be forced to fit every scenario.

At the same time, I'm also being very hard on those who follow a disciplined style of magic, and I'm really knocking the most extreme styles of it rather than those that are moderate or loose.
 
 
Colonel Kadmon
23:52 / 06.01.04
Evskig, this is one of the best threads that I've seen recently. (PS Loved th Kc reference...)

Remember, Will IS magic (from most points of view - Crowley's Love under Will, Cabalist's Will as Kether as the highest faculty in Man, Hine's statement of intent). Magic is on one hand Will, and on the other, the ability to manifest said Will.

Personally, I use Magic to help me develop Will, in other words, the ability to tie my behaviour to my Will. I have reason, I have emotion - what I don't have is the ability to say "No". So when you ask about its role, that is the very change I wish to acomplish. I have money and love and reason - what I want is the ability to not smoke all the hash in one go, not to have the cigarette that my friend offers me, not to get stoned or drunk every night until the hash or booze runs out. That is my statement of intent, and my Will. What I lack is the Discipline.

And by treating my urges as Devils or Demons, I'm getting somewhere. But it's funny, isn't it? It's hardly typical. But that is Will and Magic for me. But, Discipline is routine, isn't it? And isn't that the very opposite of Magic?
 
 
Colonel Kadmon
23:58 / 06.01.04
Maybe Balancing a relationship and practicing Magic should be another thread.

My girl is too much of the nervous type to ever accept it fully, and I have to keep coming up with scientific rationalisations in order to keep her convinced of my sanity. Imagine she came home to find her "better half" tracing pentegrams in a velvet cloak in the living room?

Personally, I can barely make it up at nine for work, let alone an hour earlier for meditation. Have other Barbelithers come up with ways of overcoming this kind o inertia?
 
 
illmatic
11:03 / 07.01.04
I agree, this is a very good thread. Very pertinent for me, anyway, as I think I internalised some very dodgy concepts of self discipline for awhile which I still struggle with, probably a slight obsessive streak I have anyways but not helped by the first occult books I read. Crowley is particularly bad for this - ie. that idiotic exercise with the razor. This is the reason why I hate the meditation exercises as given in Pete Caroll's Liber MMM (Liber Null). Lots of talk of extremes of "morbid concentration" but none about the necessity of a relaxed body and mind while practicing. There defintley is a "build big muscles school" of magical training which fits in with the way the magick often just reproduces the values of wider society. Surely maick should be the one space where these ideas aare questioned?

I think the whole concept of discipline is a bit of a misnomer anyway - it should probably be done away with, or replaced with the words "focus" or "congruence". People talk about discipline as if it was a muscle, the more you flex it, the bigger it gets, but this is not the case, it's a mental process, not a physical one. To me, this involves ascertaining your priorties and aims clearly and commiting yourself to pursuing them, with an awareness of where to push against boundaries (ie I can get up 20 minutes earlier) and where to accept limitations (I do not have to banish twice and a day, do a separate ritual, keep a diary and go to the gym) - you can tell if a certain goal is congruent or not simply by listening to yourself, and the feelings in your body (see NLP texts for more on this, and Well Formed Outcomes). Some of my earliest attempts to build self-discipline were based on very false concepts - my idealised self projection based on reading Crowley books rather than something realistic and attainable. I feel if you listen to yourself, and ask where are these ideas and concepts coming from, you can tell this - are they coming from me, or am I just replicating what I read? Do they feel real and right, in my guts, or am I just kidding myself?

I've noticed these internal processes at work in my with my martial arts training over the past year. Initially I was pusing myself too hard, I think. I have a little voice occasionally which starts up screaming at me to stop when I'm training - I can almost physically pinpoint where it's coming from (another NLP technique)- and at most of the time, I'll listen to it.I think I've got this reaction in general because of pushing myself with other stuff in the past, so that's a lesson to not push myself too hard and too stupidly again in the future. It's a balancing act between pushing against your boundaries and being merciful on yourself. Overall, I think practice should stay simple and relaxed. This is the problem I have with those big GD curriculums BTW, does banishing twice a day and do all these other things by rote really deliver?

Adam - I get up early if there's something I really want to do, but I don't nail myself to the door if sometimes I fail. But then, I've never had a problem with getting up early, and I don't smoke dope. However, I find it'd have to be something that's new and exciting for me, not just me going through one of my periodic bouts of self-chastisment. You've got to decide for yourself why you want to do it, what benefits it will bring etc. There's plenty other awareness exercise you can do throughout the day anyway - 10 mins in the park at luchtime, watching the sky etc
 
 
EvskiG
17:35 / 07.01.04
Illmatic asked if doing regular, formal ritual work by rote "really delivers."

I hope that I didn't do formal ritual work "by rote," if "rote" means "without comprehension or attention." With that said, yes, it does deliver, in the same way that regularly practicing a language or a musical instrument or a martial art delivers. I felt sharp and focused, I had as much willpower as I needed for any given situation, my visualization skills were at their peak, and I felt that I had a solid ability to feel and direct magical energy. Of course, none of the above really are existentially provable, and at the time I wasn't practicing the sort of talismanic or practical work that would have provided a useful "reality check." Go figure.

It seems to me that there are at least two different ways of learning or refining one's skills in magic, comparable to the ways one learns or refines one's skills in a language or musical instrument. There's formal study and there's immersion. Take a Spanish class or travel to Spain with a phrasebook and start talking. Take guitar lessons or pick up a guitar and start playing. Learn basic Golden Dawn rituals or scribble a sigil and start . . . well, you get the idea. One doesn't preclude the other. One isn't superior to the other. One essentially requires the other at one time or another.

Personally, I like formal study, reading lists, and exercises. I like learning things systematically. I did the Golden Dawn/A.:A.: schtick for two years and liked it, even though it had its moments of tedium. Recently I read through all of the books in the A.:A.: student syllabus, which Crowley intended as a precursor to magical practice, and with a few exceptions (e.g., Eliphas Levi) found them helpful and interesting. And I expect that restarting a regular practice will be rewarding. In Perfect Tommy's words, after more than a decade of unfocused and fairly freeform magical study and practice, I'm ready to start "woodshedding" again.

Of course, that doesn't mean immediately starting twenty different rituals and activities and getting angry if I fail to abide by a set schedule. Rather, it's a matter of reviewing a wide variety of source material, putting together a preliminary reading list, and gradually phasing in rituals and practical activities that I think will be interesting and useful. And reacquiring discipline. (Or focus.) Gradually. And abandoning the entire project at any time if I feel like it.

As I figure it, I've got the entire rest of my life to work this out.
 
 
cusm
17:35 / 07.01.04
I wonder sometimes that I don't have discipline, as I also can't get up to do morning work to save my life, and its something I've been meaning to do for years. But I've always got plenty of powerful excuses as to why not, such as my kids screaming their heads of at 4:30am on a regular basis ruining my chance of functioning in the morning. If I don't get my rest, I can't do shit for work, and most of this year has been a continual haze of constant sleep deprivation. But I'm starting up Hatha in the evenings now to make up for it, so I'm still doing what I need to do. I'm just working with the shape of my life rather than directly against it. Having the discipline to make yourself suffer is all fine and good, but I'd rather just be smart about it instead.

Its funny though, I've actually developed a lot of discipline through my various exploits into drug abuse. a big part of it is that I insist on certain rules on how I go about my substance use. I must always be in control, never using because I need to, never being wasteful, thatsort of thing. So I can look at a big pile of coke and say "no, don't need it right now, but thanks", where many of my friends could not. I've kept the stuff in my house for up to a year, waiting for the right sort of evening for it, which is proof to me beyond anything else that I have discipline. I just see it as self control, demanding that the 'lower soul' stay in line in accordance to my will and all that. Magickly, it means when I banish and put something out of my mind, I can focus enough to not continue thinking about it. Or if I perform a working where in I make an oath of some sort, either to make a change or to do some service, I'll keep it. That's where the discipline works, where it pays off. Its not in the ability to follow directions or endure rotes. Its in sheer force of will to do what I want to do the way I want to do it, and to ally myself in such a way as that I fully desire to do that thing, not just one small part of me with a loud voice shouting down the rest.

I think the will do do daily exercises and the like is actually more a fuction of dilligence. Discipline is what you can develop through dilligent practice, but it is not that practice itself.
 
  
Add Your Reply