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Tim Buckley vs Jeff Buckley

 
 
Bed Head
11:48 / 29.12.03
Okay, so the ghost of Jeff Buckley seems to turn up a lot on Barbelith. Do a search, and Jeff Buckley threads pop up, but his name also gets dropped into posts, mentioned in passing. I think I really missed something.

The thing is, Jeff never showed up on my radar until after he’d died, so I didn’t ever have that sense of interaction you build up with an artist, when you’re all excited looking forward to their newie, or going to see them live. So it’s not a loss I feel so personally, my attitude is: they’ve gone, what’s the music like? I’ve heard a couple of tracks by Jeff and it’s nice, but I’ve yet to hear anything that makes me want to investigate further; meanwhile I’m merrily working my way through the Tim Buckley back catalogue and enjoying it all the way.

And I know they’re two entirely separate and completely different artists. But there is a relationship, Jeff himself drew the comparison, and here’s the thing: on first hearing, Jeff Buckley doesn’t seem to me to have been half the artist his daddy was. Tim Buckley had a bigger, better, broader voice, was a more adventurous, more accomplished songwriter, worked better with a band, and gave his career everything he had in a whole bunch of far-out, far-ranging albums, before he crashed. I read an interview with Jeff and he sounds like a really lovely guy, and he’s obviously much missed, while Tim sounds like maybe he was a bit of a pig, but what’s that got to do with anything?

Oh and Jeff’s such a pretty boy, whereas Tim’s a really sexy man. With great hair.

So: what’s wrong with Tim, Barbelith? Any other Tim-appreciaters out there? Or, can anyone sell Jeff’s individual charms to someone who’s already been overwhelmed by his old man?


I’ve just got Greetings From LA, by the way. Even this supposed ‘minor work’ is bloody great, *nothing* like I was expecting: sleazy, noisy, weird white-boy sex-funk
 
 
Jack Fear
12:37 / 29.12.03
Right off the bat, we've got to admit this is a fool's game: it's comparing apples and asteroids. That said, as a matter of personal taste, I'd opt for Jeff.

Tim may have had more voice than Jeff--though that's an assertion I'd contest--but Jeff knew better what to do with the voice he had. Tim was a blowhard and a show-off--he'd cram every last note of his vast range into every song, just because he could. One cannot imagine Tim ever recording something as hushed and self-effacing as Jeff's "Corpus Christi Carol."

I mean, just listen to Tim's "Gypsy Woman"--twelve minutes of noxious whoops and groans that make "Whole Lotta Love" sound like a model of taste and restraint--and try not to hate.

I'd disagree with you also about the songwriting. As you mentioned before, they are two completely different artists--Tim much more in a folk/blues/pop style, while Jeff was really writing prog-prock. Tim's stuff has more upfront hooks, more basic pop chops, while Jeff was working with more complex structures.

Is one style "better" than the other? Hard to say: Tim's "Morning Glory," say, is a very pretty little tune, but (for me) it doesn't linger in quite the way that, say, Jeff's more abstract "Mojo Pin" does. And "Mojo Pin" isn't even my favorite Jeff song.

As for lyrics, I would have to say advantage = Jeff. Tim didn't write most of his own lyrics, working instead with an old friend as lyricist. And much of that "cosmic" poetry has aged really, really badly; it was always grandiose, and often fell painfully flat. Jeff's imagery is obscure and allusive, but it's rarely flat-out embarrassing, and Tim's could be.

As for overall sound: again, I'd say advantage = Jeff. While Tim was a pretty basic guitar player, Jeff was a virtuoso--indeed, his first musical ambition was not to sing at all, but to be a fusion guitarist. Because he had such chops, and because he played several instruments, Jeff was less dpendent on others to translate his musical ideas into reality (while much of Tim's jazz-oriented material grew out of group improvisations, which, unfortunately, are only as good as the folks with whom you are improvising...), so what you got on tape was more straight, undiluted Buckley. Which I think is also part of the appeal.

Also, due in large part to the brevity of his recording career, Jeff was able to keep a backing band together. While Tim was backed by a different batch of studio musicians on each record, Jeff stuck with Mick Grondahl and Michael Tighe (although he did switch drummers for his second set of studio sessions, for the never completed My Sweetheart the Drunk). This gave his work a more cohesive sound overall than Tim's, which varied wildly in quality.

I'd recommend the double biography Dream Brother, by the way--it's a fascinating book, alternating chapters on Tim and Jeff. One thing that really comes through is how much Tim craved pop stardom, and how much Jeff shied away from it, and towards experimental music. How ironic, then, that Tim remains so obscure, while Jeff has such a degree of fame.
 
 
doctorbeck
13:32 / 29.12.03


must admit to being a big tim fan and only recently coming round to listening to grace more than once a year, and i love grace, especially the cover of hallelujah, and despite all the guitar histrionics on other tracks but as for...

>One cannot imagine Tim ever recording something as hushed and self->effacing as Jeff's "Corpus Christi Carol."

er, sing a song for you comes quickly to mind, as does buzzin fly
tim left a much larger and more patchy body of work behind, some awful stuff in fact, and i agree that gypsy woman is part of that body of bad work, he also had to face tough decisions about following his muse and making some money so i think some of his lps were quite compromised artistically but come on, i mean song to the siren is just totally remarkable, especially the demo version from that outakes cd a few years back, and the peel sessions lp is sublime

and tim was on the monkees. how cool was that?

i don't think their degree of collaboration with others bothers my enjoyment either way but wasn't a lot of jeffs stuff co-wrote with some jazz / avante fusion guitarist whose name escapes me but who supported faust at the RFH a few years ago?? i admit jeff didn't have too many bongos on his lps which is a bonus though

for me have to say i like jeff but you can't say how a longer career would have panned out, it's easier to like a lost genius with a smaller body of work than a sprawling flawed artist like his dad though but, at the end of the day i had tim played as i walked down the aisle a few years ago so ai am so far from being able to be reflective about this i should just shut up...

a
 
 
Jack Fear
14:14 / 29.12.03
...wasn't a lot of jeffs stuff co-wrote with some jazz / avante fusion guitarist whose name escapes me ...

Gary Lucas. Credited as co-writer on two songs, though I suspect his actual conbtribution was minimal--"Mojo Pin" (weird background noises) and "Grace" (for which I think he wrote the intro riff).

The rest is a matter of taste, for which there is no accounting. Jeff sounds genuinely introverted to me, while Tim always sounds to me--even on "Sing a Song" and "Buzzin' Fly"--like an extrovert pretending to be an introvert, if you get what I'm saying; like a self-obsessed poon-dog who listens to Foghat in the car, but puts on John Mayer when he takes a chick back to his pad, so she'll think he's all sensitive 'n' shit. And so put out.

And "Song To The Siren" never did a thing for me, quite frankly; it's turgid, pseudo-mystical hippie crap to shame the Jefferson Airplane.
 
 
Bed Head
15:52 / 29.12.03
Nice one. Thanks for that, Jack. That’s exactly the kind of response I was hoping for. I’m properly interested now and I’ll definitely be strolling down the town next payday to get me some Jeff.

‘Disagree with the pair of you about Gypsy Woman, though. I like Gypsy Woman. I like a 5-octave (or, like, whatever) voice barking like a dog, I like the bongos. Heck, I even like the jazzy little xylophone solo on Strange Feelin’. I think Tim’s got more to recommend him than the “self-obsessed poon-dog” you’re painting him as. There’s always something interesting going on. But, like you say, it’s a matter of taste: don’t even get me started on the Jefferson Airplane, man.

But, Jeff’s next for me. Thanks.

Anyone else care to share exactly why they love Jeff/Tim? I think only love in this thread from now on. I suppose votes can always be totted up later, although I now admit the initial premise for this thread is completely and utterly boneheaded.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
20:15 / 29.12.03
I don't really like either of them, but I'd choose Jeff because he recorded the vocals for a song Shudder To Think wrote called "I Want Someone Badly" not long before he died, and he utterly nails the song in a way I think few other singers could have.
 
 
bio k9
21:14 / 29.12.03
I like Tim better but I'll be the first to admit that his studio albums are crap. Hell, the version of Song To The Siren he did on the Monkeys TV show blows the album version out of the water. Its best to avoid anything that came out after Starsailor, I think. Dream Letter is probably my favorite of his live releases, if anyone cares.
 
 
rizla mission
10:18 / 30.12.03
Having just heard a documentary about him on the radio, I think Lord Buckley, the Messiah of Swing wipes the floor with both of 'em.
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
21:11 / 05.01.04
tim.

jacks fear's buzzin fly intro/extro vert theory is right but the song is still purty good.

shverry psychedelic y know.
 
 
Tom Coates
08:07 / 06.01.04
There's something both fascinating and strangely horrible about this kind of vicarious Oedipal activity - setting father against son to see who is the best. It's kind of grim, really. But I'd vote Jeff, I think.
 
 
Jack Fear
12:27 / 06.01.04
Oh, I agree completely, Tom. And it's that Oedipal tension that makes Dream Brother such a fascinating read, certainly head and shoulders above most "rock" "biographies"--seeing the ways in which these two lives and aesthetics parallelled and intersected and diverged, how the patterns refract and nest recursively--Tim had a troubled and troubling relationship with his own father--and how the flaws and genius of the father come down to the son, and how the son's strengths and weaknesses are prefigure and shaped by the father, or the absence thereof.

And the preordained conclusions to both lives only add to the fascination. And the grimness. It's a fine book.
 
  
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