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Underground > Books, Criticism & Writing >

Robert Pirsig

Doctor Singapore

19:07 / 22.12.03

I recently finished reading "Lila", the sequel to "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintainance"....which I want to go back and re-read now.

These 2 books are really more works of philosophy with novelistic trappings, positing (in "Zen") and developing (in "Lila") the idea of "Quality" as a first principle---in the sense of "essence" as well as "worth", with the goal of overcoming subject/object duality, thus briging the gap between self and world.
There's more to it than that....basically (as the title "Zen and..." implys) it's an analysis and a defense of Eastern/Buddhist, "mystical' philosophy, using the tools of Western "rational" philosophy. (That's a nutshell description -- I'll try to give a better summary in a future post.)

Also, I read "Zen and..." way back in high school, but kinda forgot about it till picking up the sequel. Since then I've read some Leary, R.A Wilson and other Barbelith faves...and many of the ideas Pirsig picks up are the same ones, or remarkably similar. The biggest difference is Pirsig's writing style, which is more "mainstream", at least by comparison.

Anyone care to discuss their take on his work? And why it is that he's regarded as a "cult author" (like some of the names above) ---and not as a "thinker' along the lines of Ken Wilber, for instance, when the majority of both books are devoted to that kind of speculation, rather than "events and dialogue" like a standard work of fiction?

04:20 / 23.12.03

I had a go at Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintainance couple of years ago.. didn`t do it for me though.. I mean, he obviously has many interesting views and takes on things, but I think it was his writing-style who put me off.. maybe I should have another go though.. I may have missed out on something..

20:40 / 01.01.04

I read it and was unimpressed. His philosophy is outright sloppy. Despite his own admonition that he is trying to bridge the gap between east/west, romantic/rational, madness/sanity etc, etc, he is still using the principles of argumentation, reason, logic. In short, he is using philosophy.

I did however like the narrative. It wasn't a bad book, but it wasn't a solution to the ills of the modern world either.

10:32 / 02.01.04

I read Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance in one sitting on a long-haul flight. It seemed to make perfect sense but I can't remember a thing about it now, which I put down to gin and altitude.

18:14 / 02.01.04

I started reading ZEN ages ago in Collage... but never quite finished it. It's a great title when playing "charades"
7 words
12 sylables

I read Lila much later and greatly enjoyed it...interestingly I was just remembering a bit he wrote comparing
Native Amercian-U.S.A.American-English cultures and general views (likes/dislikes) each group has about the next group over.

at the scarwash

01:58 / 03.01.04

When I was in high school, we did a special projects class on mathematics and literature. We did Alice in Wonderland, Flatlands, and fucking ZATAOMM. Pirsig's text was chosen because of his discussion of Classicism and Romanticism, and theoretically, reason and passion. All we got out of him was that we should have read The Birth of Tragedy, which explores all of those themes much more intelligently and interestingly. In my opinion, Pirsig's novel was the self-indulgent narrative of his own nervous breakdown, cloaked in watered-down Nietzsche.

20:27 / 05.01.04

How is it possible to take such swill at all seriously. It's a cheap, shoddy novel and as philosophy it's not even that.

23:58 / 05.01.04

Sax: I don't think it's you... When I read the big conclusion, I thought it was great... but then three days later had to re-read it as I had completely forgotten what it was... and right now (year and a half later) I can't for the life of me recall what the big thing was that made me go 'wow!'

09:26 / 06.01.04

I think the book's value changes from perspective to perspective (d'oh!). Let me rephrase: Even though now I can agree with well enough alone about it being self-indulgent and sloppy, I can still recognize the potential value this book has in hinting at many interesting concepts (that are of course left for the reader to elaborate on his own - a nice feat for a book which praises intellectual quests), and if you consider that the thinking minds out there can de divided roughly into classicists/romantics, it's always nice to have someone saying - here, have a look at the other side of the game, it's not as alien as it seems.

I know that, for me, it sparked a lot of interest in analytical thinking, logic, erm, software programming, this sort of crap, and helped me getting a better grasp at the techie-type types.

05:19 / 11.01.04

W.E.A. I'm not seeing anything explicitly Neitzchean in 'Zen...', although it has been at least eight years since I read 'the Birth of Tragedy.' Could you elaborate?

16:43 / 11.01.04

I always thought Neitzchean writings we're zen like , but with the humor removed. As self depricating as he was and insightful . He seemed to lack the essence to grasp the humor within his situation.

Pirsig on the other hand came out the otherside of his "robotizied" nature, with a humor upgrade !

I am slightly bemused as to the critisisum of self indulgance when the whole point of his narrative was to convey the experinces of his life .

Surely all personal expressions of a written form, should be confinded by this definition ? (Or is the description at fault is it states the obvious ?)

at the scarwash

20:03 / 11.01.04

I guess that I was saying that Pirsig's discussion of the romanticism/classicism dichotomy reads to me like a written-on-'ludes crib of the Apollonian/Dionysian stuff in the BoT. I ain't no Nietzschian scholar, mind you. So that's my opinion. And to be sure, there is nothing particularly Nietzschian about ZatAoMM (which is a beautifully cryptic abbreviation), just as there is nothing particularly Zen.

And as for his self-indulgeant tendancies, osy, one can convey life experiences in an interesting and enlightening way, without being moany and overbearingly aware of one's own sense of personal tragedy.

20:55 / 11.01.04

Its funny I never found that about ZATAOMM or LILA . It just seemed as if he was trying to emote his experence on to paper (which given that he essentialy died and was reborn (i hope this hasent runined it for anyone !)) And given the limitations of syntax was IMHO a remarkable achievement.

I would define any reflection of self to the world at large, as self-indulgeant. However i take your point about its conveance.

08:03 / 13.01.04

I'm still hoping you'll post the broader summary you promised, Doctor Singapore. I hope that the more dismissive posters haven't put you off doing so. Since the books are quite fresh in your mind, and speaking as someone who hasn't read them for a while, I'd certainly be interested in the discussion if you laid out some of the parts that engaged you most.

Sax and Baz - your recollections are quite apt aren't they? Isn't that Dynamic Quality in action? Affecting and significant, but 'unlatched' to established, static patterns? Like hearing a new song that strikes you in the gut as being good, without you being able to well describe why? I think part of the reason that the books are written like they are is in order to induce some of the very intuitions he's talking about - to point to the unostensible.

15:18 / 13.01.04

I've just read ZatAoMM and think the Nietzschean comparison as regards the Classicism/Romanticism and Appolianian/Dionysian is valid. Indeed the exposition of the classical and romantic split is the best bit in my opinion. Having said that it's nowhere near as good as what's to be found in the Birth of Tragedy. The rest of the book is full of cod philosophy with more holes than a particularly hole-wridden colander. If you want a decent philosophical novel, google some Sartrean phenomenology and then read the fantastical Nausea.