BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


Underground > Temple >

Magick and superstition do you flit between the two?

  
 
The Fourth
10:15 / 21.12.03
This is a bit of a personal bug bear for me and I wonder if it gets anyone else the same way. I have noticed a tendency among some practitioners of the dodgy arts to wax superstitious in times of difficulty, more specifically in times of other people's difficulty. It's the 'I'll light some incense to Ganesh for you' type of response that I'm thinking of here, not a whole host different from lighting a candle, or any other slightly revered daily act of prayer practised by multitudes of people in various religions or personal spiritual pursuits.
I do appreciate that there is 'good intention' here and it is supportive to be thought of in kindness, but I also wonder about it in terms of being a complete cop out actually. The response is one of; shit, that's really tough, don't know what to do/say to help you, here's a stock 'helpful' response. Substitute name of favourite deity, make mark of favourite sigil etc. Surely this is exactly the same as stamping your feet three times, cirlcing left whilst spitting over your shoulder in the face of the devil type response?
Question is, is it actually helpful? I am thinking here of awareness and learning. Do we, in carrying out these acts of superstition or in being passively receptive of them, pass off a period of difficulty or strife as something to be made disappear as soon as poss rather than engage with and explore for our greater benefit or potential. I think we do, and I think we shouldn't!
I do not think there is anything wrong with wanting to help people of course, but I do question whether this type of response is really helpful to the person in difficulty. I actually think it serves more to alleviate the anxiety of the friend or supporter. I think it is important to acts of magick because one of the most basic tennets of practising magick seems to be about 'conscious', consicous acts in accordance with ones will, awake awareness, breaking out of the trance etc.
I could say more, but will hold off for now before this gets too long, and I would like to know what y'all think about it.
 
 
illmatic
19:04 / 22.12.03
I actually think it serves more to alleviate the anxiety of the friend or supporter.

Hmmm... I'd agree with this in some instances. it reminds me of some of the investigations of conversational stratergies that come up in counselling, the grnting of sympathy rather than putting yourselfon the line with empathy and all the other stances that are more to protect the correspondent than resolve problems, to make problems disappear than to solve them. I think the intention as quoted above can be totally true, but does not have to be in all cases. If you do a lot of work in this fashion, in a tradition that grants results (anedotal eveidence suggests this would be the spirit based traditions- Enochian, Voodoun etc for some reasons) and consistently get results above and beyond what you would expect, then you'd probably start taking it quite seriously, and questioning/thinking hard about what you're doing. This takes a bit more effort and commitment than just lighting a bit of incense though. I happen to think there's nowt wrong with a bit of prayer or whatever myself, as long as I back it up with phone calls, chats and generally being a friend to people.

A related example might be the workings that come up from time to time from world peace or global dophn consciousness or whatever - the same kind of idea applied to a global/macrocosmic goal. I have wondered with workings of these type whether they channel the "I must act" urges of the participants, in a situation they feel powerless within, rather than actually acheiving anything. Symbolic action rather than anything else. I suppose arguably the idea of changing Aeons could be seen like this - be itThelema, Nema's Aeon of Maat or anyone of the various Christian rapures - as a way for the powerless to give themselves a place of importance, rather than facing up to their insignificnace. (Not necessairly what I believe but an interesting idea nonehtless).

Coincidentally, I just picked up the Independent on Sunday's magazine "Talk of the Town" and there's a little in there about church prayer boards, which is fascinating - people sticking up requests for various things, which address the same key areas of concern as sorcery, you could almost see this as an unacknowleged folk magic tradtion I think - prayers being asked for for healing, blessing, commemeration of the dead, success in various ventures, some of which sound sincere, some of which sound like egowank which you can't believe people have stuck up in public. Unfortuately, there's not many for red hot sex and loadsamoney but that's the Church for you!!
 
 
trouser the trouserian
04:38 / 23.12.03
It's the 'I'll light some incense to Ganesh for you' type of response that I'm thinking of here, not a whole host different from lighting a candle, or any other slightly revered daily act of prayer practised by multitudes of people in various religions or personal spiritual pursuits.

I'd agree, Fourth, that this is not so different from offering to pray for someone, or as a new ager would no doubt say, "send energy" to them. Are you questioning whether these acts have any efficaciousness? One could argue that people who offer such actions are basically offering to do some magic on behalf of someone else. Whether this is actually helpful or not would be difficult to test, and here's where we enter the fuzzy territory of belief.

I know from my own experience of doing healing/sorcery that it's easy to slip into the 'headspace' where one feels one can 'control/influence' all situations that arise around oneself. This is something that needs to be challenged/questioned and I feel that yes, there is a strong element of 'alleviating anxiety' here (there was for me anyhow). 'Cos a strong attraction of sorcery is the idea that one can control/make 'safe' one's immediate situation.

However, if say, I'm depressed, and a friend says "I'm going to to pray to Jesus on your behalf/sacrifice a sparrow to Satan - whatever, then yes, it could be just a knee-jerk reaction on their part, but equally, to assume that might be a knee-jerk reaction on my part. I mean, I might say to them "So what will that do" and they could (a) look surprised that I'd 'punctured' the assumed consensual belief" or (b) come out with a long, involved and highly conscious explanation of what they intended.
 
 
illmatic
09:31 / 23.12.03
To elaborate a little on my point above, which might not be the clearest. Ive been reading up a little on folk magic traditions lately and it's so simple that I can't see a huge difference between this and prayer. However, I don't see any reason why this simplicity should lessen it's effectiveness. I think the complexity = efectiveness is a bit of a pithole that traditonal ceromonial magick falls down in. Your real point seems to me to be, do this actions just serve the purpose of alleviating our own discomfort, embarassment, whatever? Well, I dunno - every act is going to be different and that answer only lies in the mind of the practiconer, sometimes yes, sometimes no. I do think a lot of magical activity serves some kind of symbolic function beyond it's stated intent but there's no hard and fast rule here, it's why one should be very conscious and critical about one's intentions and motivations.
 
 
The Fourth
14:51 / 23.12.03
Hmm. Quite. This power of prayer/belief thing you both refer to is interesting. Personally I don't believe that many people I know could create a particularly efficacious result by lighting some incense and wishing type thing, which is really what I was referring to (and partly why I have an issue with it). I do however, believe those same people would be capable of something efficacious with a more elaborate (perhaps) and focused spell, or (perhaps) with some incense to a deity they had a strong connection with. I think we are generally aware enough of where our magickal potencies and impotencies lie and probably those closer to us are similarly aware of them too.
It is a question of itent really and is the intent to help someone, fine! Or is it to get them to shut up so you can go home and watch telly? The intent, to my thinking here at least is what needs to be made conscious in the well-wisher. What is it that is intended and why? The urge is to relieve the sufferer of whatever difficulty, maybe this is altruism, maybe it's because the anxiety is intolerable to both as indicated above. But the difficulty is often where the learning is and maybe we are (if successful in our incense lighting) by-passing the most important bit for the sufferer!

I think these points are well worth bearing in mind. I think we often go about helping others or wishing them well without being very aware of what our true motives are, or what the possible other effects of our helping might be. We assume it is ok because it is an urge to help. We (mostly) would not assume this was ok to wish someone ill, where we are much more suspect of our motivations, e.g. envy, greed, personal affront. I use this to illustrate how easily and lazily we go about our well-wishing, I'm aware that there's lots of other reasons, some justifiable for wishing someone ill.

So yes my main point is about being more conscious of what we're doing especially when 'doing good', most especially during such seasons of goodwill such as this!!! I urge you all not to do good without first thinking about it properly! It is in fact the dark evil of laziness and ignorance disguised as an altruistic urge and that is why you rightly feel anxious!!!

I was wondering if anyone else noticed themselves or fellow magi falling into this habit and how you felt about it! Do you tend to think (like me) I don't want your bloody incense, or do you think, thanks 'mate' that's mighty generous and thoughtful, I am grateful for your goodwill, or do you hardly pay it attention because it is a bit of a stock response?

I am mindful of trying to keep a distinction between the anxiety stopper and the more thought out and deliberate act of spell based help which I'm also suspicious of, but not really referring to here!

I feel a new era of vigilance entering my life!
 
 
trouser the trouserian
20:04 / 23.12.03
Personally I don't believe that many people I know could create a particularly efficacious result by lighting some incense and wishing type thing, which is really what I was referring to (and partly why I have an issue with it). I do however, believe those same people would be capable of something efficacious with a more elaborate (perhaps) and focused spell, or (perhaps) with some incense to a deity they had a strong connection with.

So, complexity of 'working' does seem to be an issue for you, Fourth? So presumably if someone said "Oh I'll light some incense for Ganesha for you" and did so within the context of a four-hour plus puja, that'd be okay?

I do agree with your wider points about offering goodwill as a habit. I guess it can be like the magical equivalent of "how are you?" when we 'expect' the other person to say "fine" and not launch into a catalogue of their various woes and ills.
 
 
Unconditional Love
01:04 / 24.12.03
personally i think they have alot of similarities i mean you can dress magic up as faith ceremonial wicca chaos or what ever but its only a flavour not the substance do you think fervent belief in the luck of black cats works? i think if the confidence trick you pull on yourself or others or eternity or what ever works and achieves whats needed, does it matter wether its superstition prayer or high ceremony.
surely the trappings and flavours of various traditions are just really pride and the need to belong, i think you could argue theres functional superstion and dysfunctional, the same with magick but its a question of what works for the individual concerned.

if you sincerly believe eating apple seeds will cause an apple tree to grow in your stomach you will probably get an up set stomach.

its about intensity of belief or lack of depending on your flavour, isnt it?
 
 
trouser the trouserian
05:51 / 24.12.03
I was wondering if anyone else noticed themselves or fellow magi falling into this habit and how you felt about it! Do you tend to think (like me) I don't want your bloody incense, or do you think, thanks 'mate' that's mighty generous and thoughtful, I am grateful for your goodwill, or do you hardly pay it attention because it is a bit of a stock response?

Well, for the most part, the 'magi' I'd disclose woes to would be good friends anyway, people who I know genuinely care about me - so if they come out with variants on "I'll have a wank to Woden for you" (no one's ever offered that particular one, mind) then I think I'd be touched, and heartened. It might well be "shorthand" for "we'll be thinking of you" and "if you want a hand - it's there". It could be that the other half of the equation, as it were, is the 'anxiety' we feel over accepting 'support' from others.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
13:00 / 24.12.03
Personally I don't believe that many people I know could create a particularly efficacious result by lighting some incense and wishing type thing, which is really what I was referring to (and partly why I have an issue with it).

A lot of sorcery within the Vodon/Santeria traditions takes the form of lighting candles and praying to the Saints and Lwa for intervention - and that's some seriously powerful and effective stuff. What I think counts is the level of emotional investment involved, if your interaction with the Gods is done with genuine awe and reverence then the act of lighting a candle and petitioning Their aid is not an empty or complacent gesture. To be honest, I think it can be a damn sight more powerful than a magically directed orgasm, if the context and framework of belief within which the candle lighting is performed pervades every aspect of that persons life.

Similarly, the most complex ritual forms can be rendered impotent and meaningless if a sufficient level of emotional investment isn't there. The Christian marraige ceremony is a lengthy and potentially really powerful peice of ritual, but a lot of people go through the motions of it without much belief or faith in its power. On the other hand, I think the example you gave of spinning around 3 times and stamping your foot on the ground could be an incredibly powerful act of magic - if it was done within the context of a strong belief system. I don't think the outward forms of sorcery can really be criticised without taking into account the individual's internal process and wider context of belief. I would say that 'superstition' is just ritual performed without any real investment of belief, from people who don't walk under ladders because their mam told them it was unlucky, to people who get married under the auspices of a religion that they don't really believe in just because it's the done thing.

I think the subject of doing magic for other people is another seperate and really complex issue, and I agree that complacency is a big danger that we should be aware of and try to guard against. But it really brings us back to emotional investment again. Doing stuff at a magical level is at the heart of shamanism, and if you're working within a shamanic type tradition, then it's generally expected that you will use the magic to aid your community. That's why the Gods and Spirits give you access to that power, so that you can function as a channel for Them to reach out into the world. There's been loads of threads on this sort of thing before, but I can't remember what they were called or where they are.

Anyway, I do think that there's a difference between operating under this shamanic job description and the whole "you've got a cold? I'll wank over a sigil for you" attitude that people often seem to have. I think the problem I have with the latter approach is that there is often no real involvement between magician and client, it's a one response fits all form of magic, just write out what you want and hit orgasm and you're sorted, whatever the problem is. If it gets to the point where your magic becomes a complacent one-size-fits-all response, without much personal investment, creativity or thought involved, then I think you can be in danger of draining the 'magic' out of your magic, if you know what I mean.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
13:15 / 24.12.03
As an example of what I'm getting at with the superstition thing, I often salute Magpies when I see them. Outwardly that's an empty superstition no different from crossing the road to avoid a black cat. However, I do this because I consider the Magpie to be an ancestral totem animal (since I'm from Newcastle) and the salutation is a way of giving respect to that. It might appear to an observer as a 'superstitious' behavior pattern, but if that behaviour is a method for developing a living relationship with the Magpie Spirit, then the lines between magic and superstition get extremely blurred.
 
 
The Fourth
19:57 / 29.12.03
What I think counts is the level of emotional investment involved, if your interaction with the Gods is done with genuine awe and reverence then the act of lighting a candle and petitioning Their aid is not an empty or complacent gesture

As indeed do I! This is what I also referred to as intent and wnated to encourage more mindfulness of by increasing our alertness in carrying out such acts, especially in wishing others well.

I do not question the potential power of size of act, I am fully aware that the smallest gesture can be powerful, it lies in the intent... I was simply questioning the efficacy of people's ability - not the acts themselves. I was also questioning the motives of people's acts in these circumstances and wanting to encourage more alertness, which is something that we should all be striving to develop and maintain irrespective of our tradition or method of practice.
 
 
FinderWolf
19:00 / 14.01.04
This is a very cool thread so I just wanted to 'bump' it up. Have a wank for Woden indeed!
 
 
ghadis
00:30 / 26.10.06
Just bumping this interseting thread up again. The superstition as magick idea. There was a also a cool superstition thread resurfaced in the conversation recently, also with some interesting stuff in but i can't find it now.
 
 
ceilingsarecool
05:18 / 26.10.06
My question, upon reading this, is what would you (general) consider magick that is not superstitious? I've been struggling with this division myself. Superstition must come from sincere belief to be superstition. Magick must come from a controlled intent and belief. So what would be an example of magick that is not superstitious?
 
 
Unconditional Love
07:50 / 26.10.06
The idea of magic and superstition going together is a direct result of the 19th century thinking that highlights progress and its attendent mythology as a driving force.

It works something like this

Magic/superstition

ethical monothiesm

scientific objectivism

Its a self supporting mythological structure created to reinforce the notion of progress.

Where as, alot of younger cultures would suggest that we are moving ever closer to superstiton now, the ancient egyptians for example. Time was turned arse about face relatively recently.

Look at the notion of yugas or the procession of the ages.
 
 
Quantum
08:26 / 26.10.06
I've always thought of superstition as magic without the magic, the actions or habits without the intent to back them up. Without an understanding of the act and it's purpose and some intent and investment in it, stamping three times or lighting incense is not going to achieve much.
 
 
Ticker
13:23 / 26.10.06
I dunno I know an awful lot of superstitious folk who believe quite powerfully in whatever the crux of their thing is. It seems to be divorced from a framework of greater understanding not effectiveness automatically.

For example I know a lot of fisherfolk with powerful superstitions. They have no idea where the beliefs came from or how they evolved and really oddly from my POV, not a lot of curiousity to find out.

I've seen folks do magic rituals with way less intent than some of these fisherfolk obeying the strictures of superstition. I tend to think of superstitions as islands and artifacts left over from a washed away system not automatically empty of intent or power.
 
 
EmberLeo
21:23 / 27.10.06
I guess it can be like the magical equivalent of "how are you?" when we 'expect' the other person to say "fine" and not launch into a catalogue of their various woes and ills.

Hmm, I'm one of those people who actually answers the question - I've tried to teach myself to be brief, at least, but I don't answer a false positive when the real answer is "Fucking miserable! You?"

So I guess it follows that I take people at their word when they offer up prayers, sympathy, etc. I don't expect tremendous results, but I appreciate that they took time to respond, and intend to take more time to contribute, however minorly, to my well being.

Amongst my immediate crowd of Pagan and Magician types, I'm at least as likely to recieve suggestions of what sort of working I could do to improve the situation, or occasionally offers of help performing the necessary rituals and such. "Do you need backup for a healing ritual?" "Would you like me to talk to Eir about it?" "Here, you may have my green mortar and pestle, with which to create an appropriate poultice spell"

I think it can be a damn sight more powerful... if the context and framework of belief within which the candle lighting is performed pervades every aspect of that persons life.

Indeed - or if the act carries more of an overtone of effort for them than you realize. For example, for me lighting a candle and just letting it burn as I go about my business is a lot of effort from me, because I was raised to be downright paranoid about fire. (Of course I'm also kind of a pyro, so leaving the candle alone is also an act of will ;p ) I've found that on those occasions I set aside my usual concerns and habits and conciously set things up for a safe long-term burn, it's highly effective, just because I can't do it mindlessly.

As an example of what I'm getting at with the superstition thing, I often salute Magpies when I see them.

Huh... I talk to animals all the time, and it never crossed my mind that I did it for magical reasons. I mean, spiritual, yes - I'm aware of their conciousness so I pay attention to them. But it's not a matter of focused intent or an attempt to acomplish anything. I'm just being social. Is that superstitious?

I tend to think of superstitions as islands and artifacts left over from a washed away system not automatically empty of intent or power.

That's really poetic, and describes my understanding pretty well. Non-Sequiture: Do you mind if I steal the image for my poetry class assignment?

--Ember--
 
  
Add Your Reply