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A just God(dess) who maybe can be a bit mean?

Tryphena Absent

23:45 / 19.12.03

One of my friends has been pretty fucked over by another of my friends in the luurrvvee department. Obviously because I'm friends with both of them and I don't want the fucker to be eternally damned or anything but I've always worked with the kind of deities that would just screw him completely so I'm requesting a little guidance. I thought to myself the best thing to do would be to ask for people's first hand experience. So does anyone know of a fair deity who'll give come uppance a bit but won't ruin the bastards life? I'm looking for someone who will give him the clarity to mentally flagellate himself a little and beg for the fucked over's forgiveness but not... you know, turn him in to a quivering wreck. A nice, just God(dess).

(And btw my friend is far too sweet and can't commit the type of revenge needed in this situation else I wouldn't be thinking about this).

00:29 / 20.12.03

I've found the gods have a tendency to sort these things out, giving what's needed to who needs it, so don't fret too much about come uppances being got.

Nietzsch E. Coyote

00:36 / 20.12.03

Eris. She won't damn him to hell but maybe she will be the bitch he needs. Or just let karma handle its own

00:56 / 20.12.03

Themis, goddess of ethics, morals and social order... plus her Nemesis-ter, goddess of karma, divine justice and vengeance. A pretty balanced pair.

I've never done specific workings or set my altar to them, but I know I've tasted the edge of Nemesis' blade once or twice... Great Goddess of Righteous Indignation

Tryphena Absent

14:22 / 20.12.03

Little Mother- I totally disagree with you but it sounds like we've worked with different gods and Nietzsch, I don't believe in Karma.

15:44 / 20.12.03

I dunno.. I'd be a bit wary of getting any God/desses involved in something like this myself, as that can bring a really big element of unpredictability into the mix - even if you know the God/dess in question fairly well and have an existing relationship. I tend to find that things rarely seem to pan out exactly as intended in these affairs, and if we're talking vengeange and retribution, then there's a good chance that things could get badly out of hand. I reckon there's even more potential for things to go pear-shaped if you're bringing in God/desses that you have no real prior knowledge of, so I'd be tempted to look for an alternative approach. Any suggestions for likely entities that this thread throws up really have to be filed under hearsay and speculation until you have first hand knowledge, as someone else's experiences and relationship might end up being vastly different to what comes through for you.

Seeing as what you're contemplating involves directly messing with people, I'd be tempted to leave the God/desses out of it as that always gives you a bit of a moral/ethical get out clause - "it was God/desses will, etc..". Maybe you should just work out what you personally think would be a fair and just response, and go for some straightforward sorcery to try and bring that about. There's a vast repertoire of hoodoo/rootwork stuff specifically targetted for pretty much every emotional situation you're likely to encounter, so I'd go with something like that. That way, you have to accept total responsibility for whatever happens, which I think is a pretty fair trade-off for this type of work.

Unconditional Love

15:55 / 20.12.03

http://lib.law.washington.edu/ref/themis.html perhaps this or http://ancienthistory.about.com/cs/grecoromanmyth1/a/justicegoddess.htm or http://www.angelfire.com/va/goddesses/maat.html perhaps.

Tryphena Absent

16:35 / 20.12.03

Quite frankly in this situation I'm not going to avoid this. He's fucked around with too many women in the last couple of years and it's about time he got a clear picture of what he was doing. This isn't revenge, I have no revenge to take, I simply want him to see a little more clearly. Gypsy, I think we work with similar Gods but those aren't the type that I'm looking for, if they were than I wouldn't be asking. I don't intend to work out of anger, I'd talk to him if that was the case, nor do I intend to act immediately because this isn't going to be heated.

Understand, I'm going to be messing with someone I've known since the age of 11, this isn't a strange and screwed up thing I'm looking to do, I don't want to change him but I think there are things that he refuses to see that are right in front of his face. My friend will pretend everything's dandy because she doesn't want to tell him he's been awful. He won't see past that, all I want is for him to see and that's really the extent of vengeance that he deserves. So a deity that's just, if anyone knows one?

11:24 / 21.12.03

'This isn't revenge, I have no revenge to take, I simply want him to see a little more clearly'

and

'I don't want to change him'

Seems like you do want to change him to me. And if it's not revenge what is it? I'm sure that he'll be very grateful when you forcibly impose your own morals onto him.

11:59 / 21.12.03

I have had some success with casting sigls against folk to experience total guilt and karma over their stuff they've done. You just gotta watch what your words are before you abstract the desire!!!! (I've learned from my mistakes!)

14:08 / 21.12.03

I kind of agree with Ghadis here - you do want to force a change of perspecitve on him, and that's coming from an "I know best" perspective. Consider how you would feel if you found out that someone were doing the same thing to you. Why can't you just talk to the guy?

15:23 / 21.12.03

Quite frankly in this situation I'm not going to avoid this.

Wasn't suggesting that you should, I'd just personally be a bit wary about accepting other people's reccomendations of God/desses for something like this. It's inviting a big unknown factor into an already delicate situation, no matter who the entities are. I always think that calling on the Gods is a bit like involving the Mafia - and in some situations it might be more appropriate to keep it close and personal. Like you say, my perspective on this might be influenced by the type of God/desses I work with, but I'd hesitate to accept that a specific entity would apply the same notions of 'just' and 'fair-minded' punishment that I might, and definitely not on somebody else's reccomendation alone.

I'm sure that he'll be very grateful when you forcibly impose your own morals onto him.

Ghadis is probably right with this train of thought, so you probably shouldn't bother making a little clay doll of the person incorporating some personal item of his, and placing it upside down head first in a jar filled with vinegar, red pepper and black pepper. And I certainly wouldn't advise sealing the jar with a 'just desserts' sigil and burning 3 red candles around it, then hiding it somewhere near his house or place of work. That would be a completely wrong thing to do, and you're much better off listening to some of the more reasoned voices above.

16:26 / 21.12.03

I don't really think that Tryphena should not take action but i think that she should acknowledge what that action is. If she's doing it because her friend hurt her other friend then that is revenge. And any action that that revenge takes is going to change him into how Tryphena thinks he should be. I think you should acknowledge that. If i lived next to a wifebeating, BNP member arsehole i'm not going to worry about forcing my morals onto him. I'm just going to fuck the bastard up if i can.

17:01 / 21.12.03

If she's doing it because her friend hurt her other friend then that is revenge. And any action that that revenge takes is going to change him into how Tryphena thinks he should be. I think you should acknowledge that.

Yeah, I pretty much agree with that. This is why I'd avoid the temptation to hand over responsibility for the outcome to a random 'God/dess of Justice' as, at a certain level, it implies not taking complete ownership of the punishment that you're dishing out. I think it's a lot more honest to decide what you think is fair and then target your efforts in that direction, rather than conveniently handing over responsibility to an external notion of 'blind justice'. (I'm not saying this is what Tryph is doing, but these are interesting issues thrown up by the situation.)

05:21 / 22.12.03

Is it revenge if the primary motivation is to prevent this from happening to yet another woman?? Or at least educate the bastard so the next time he fucks somebody over he does it consciously rather than continuing to do it unconsciously?

Personally, I'm not sure I'd leave this to magic. But then, I'm fairly good at asking the leading/pointed question and doing a bit of analysis/therapy on the fly...

I can't think of any deities that would be useful. Maybe conjuring a "magic mirror" would be useful - something that would give him insight into the other side of these interactions or show him as your friend sees him or something like that?

Tryphena Absent

08:42 / 22.12.03

Hang on, I know revenge and I wouldn't take magical action for a reason as clear as that, it's far sweeter to spit in someone's face and stamp on their toes and those of you that know me well I'm sure understand I have no qualms about going there.

And to be distinct I don't want his morals in line with mine. That's not really the purpose of this, I don't expect people to keep up my values, my absolute only purpose is for him to recognise the harm that he's caused someone else... no subsequent action expected on his part. I only want him to have a clear picture rather than a one sided belief that he's been okay in all this and I suppose that it would be from an 'I know best' perspective but that's why I want to discuss this with a deity who has clarity itself.

And of course I'm going to talk to someone close to him about this before I even begin but understand that I know this man very, very well and if I speak to him he will have very little to say about it except 'I decided to act in a different way'. That would be fine if he hadn't played two sides against the middle and if I hadn't seen him on a date with the side who wasn't my friend while going out with his ex-girlfriend and stringing my friend along and do any of them know about this? Hell, no. It's pure chance that I have a picture of what's happened. So no punishment because that isn't my place but definitely a chat about his lack of understanding towards the women involved and the type of discussion that will have him listen rather than ignore, as he would quite happily ignore me.

11:50 / 22.12.03

So is the main crux of the matter honesty? Your friend is having a sexual relationship with three people (at least i assume he's having sex, the term 'date' is a bit confusing but i hope it's not just that you've seen this guy going for a drink with this other woman or something) and has not been honest with them about the others.You feel this dishonesty will hurt all involved if they find out so you want him to realise this and stop him doing similer things in the future.

So perhaps some sort of Magic Empathy Mirror as Iszabelle suggested is in order.

Or maybe tell all involved what has been going on. Ideally do this by subtlely bringing everyone together in the same room and making an announcment. Of course people are going to get hurt but they are proberly going to get hurt one way or the other anyway and this way your male friend will definatly be confronted with the effects of his actions and may think twice about repeating them in the future.

Of course one result of this action is that it will show up your dealings in the whole affair and you may be seen as some sort of 'puppetmaster' bringing people together to cleverly expose the truth for the good of everyone. Not everyone will be pleased with you i imagine but if the whole situation is about honesty and dishonesty this may be the honest way for you to proceed instead of staying in the background playing with arcane powers to bring about results without ever telling those involved.

12:03 / 22.12.03

Justice? The lady with the scales, for the balance, and the sword for, y'know, the hitting? Just a thought...

Tryphena Absent

13:20 / 22.12.03

Thanks Ghadis, I think that's probably about as constructive as I've ever heard anyone be. Unfortunately it's the best way I can think of to lose just about everyone involved as a friend. Believe me, you have never encountered a group of people who were so set against honesty (well, maybe you have, I wouldn't know). Were I to do as you suggested I'd probably be thought of as 'the hysterical one' for the next ten years. That's a reputation I don't want... again.

I think the mirror is a good idea too and I'm going to play around with it a bit. I'd like to keep my own influence as slight as possible and a reflection of his own actions back to him... far better than anything I've come up with.

I'm not sure about Justice, seems to me she's a bit corrupt, I'll check her out though.

14:28 / 22.12.03

If the mirror thing doesn't provide inspiration enough, maybe you could just hang a psychic warning label on him! "Charming but unscrupulous, enter at your own risk!"

15:05 / 22.12.03

Ideally do this by subtlely bringing everyone together in the same room and making an announcment.

Have you just been watching Columbo, by any chance?

Justice? The lady with the scales, for the balance, and the sword for, y'know, the hitting? Just a thought...

That crossed my mind this morning as well, I was trying to think of God/desses of Justice that might not carry cultural complications. First God that came to mind was the Norse Tyr, the guy who put his hand into the Fenris Wolf's mouth in order to bind it. He's a God of Justice, but if you go back a bit further he was the Norse God of War - which could get a bit messy if you involve him in a domestic dispute. So I figured that maybe Justice herself, as in the Tarot image, might be the most focussed representation of the 'force' you're looking for. There's not so much cultural baggage attached as I think she's more of an abstract principle than a Goddess of a dead or living culture.

I'm not sure about Justice, seems to me she's a bit corrupt, I'll check her out though.

I suppose if you're thinking of her as patron of the modern judicial system you could make that argument, but I'm not so sure. I think if you just consider Justice as a pure representation of that essential principle then you can't go too wrong.

Although, now I think about it, maybe focussing on the 'justice' aspect of all this is coming at it from the wrong angle. It's essentially a domestic situation and concerns love, sex, and human relationships, so it might be better to involve a God/dess who excells at that sort of thing.

18:48 / 22.12.03

I don't think that i was being that constructive and practical. Just a bit tetchy and argumentitive really. Must be the time of the year so sorry if that came over. I think the mirror idea is a good one and something based around that is a good way to go.

Still think that you should talk to the guy about the situation first though.

Tryphena Absent

10:32 / 23.12.03

Oh I thought you were quite constructive, in a different situation it's what I'd do.