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Is this wrong?

  
 
Mister Snee
13:49 / 13.12.03
Hi there. I found this link on Erowid the other day when I was searching for "dexedrine" (this girl said she'd sell me some if I wanted and I didn't know if I wanted or not). It's called "Proemium" and it's by Johnathon Ott and I think it's part of a larger book called Pharmacotheon. Maybe some of you have read it. They call it "a comprehensive and readable treatise on drug policy reform" and, well, I guess it is.

But just now while reading the third chapter I came across an old argument that I've heard before, and used myself -- that there is nothing inherently immoral about drug use or mind-alteration ("moral" reasons are commonly held up to explain drug laws) since so many of the chemicals we use for recreational or traditional purposes occur naturally in our brains. But he put it in a way which was, well, laden heavy enough with jargon to look pretty impervious. Here it is:

"Let's face it, we're all on drugs, all of the time... I'm not talking about the industrial quantities of alcohol, caffeine, nicotine, marijuana, cocaine, heroin, etc. consumed regularly by humankind, but about the DMT and morphine our bodies make for us and which we "consume" all the time; or our very own sleeping pill, the endogenous ligand of the Valium receptor (which may be Valium itself); or the "anxiety peptide" which blocks that receptor (Marx 1985); or our endorphins and enkephalins (our own self-produced "ENDOgenous moRPHINES"; see Snyder & Matthysse 1975) which kill our pain; or "Substance P," our own pain-causing molecule (Skerrett 1990); or anandamide, the endogenous ligand of the THC (marijuana) receptor (Devane et al. 1992)... The life of the mind, of consciousness, is a constant, ever-changing pharmacological symphony, or to put it less romantically, a never-ending drug binge. The urge to ingest opiates or DMT or Valium is completely natural (Siegel 1989) and as "organic" as can be- we are only supplementing or complementing the drugs that make our brains work, and these drugs work for us precisely because they are identical to, or chemically similar to our own endogenous drugs. Researchers have found "commonalities" in "drug abuse" irrespective of gross pharmacological differences between different classes of drugs (Holden 1985) because on one level all psychoactive drugs are the same- they are all fitting into our own brains' own receptors for our homemade, endogenous drugs."

So basically he's saying that our urge to take, say, heroin, is as natural a phenomenon as an endorphin reward after a work-out. The brain has decided on some level that it wants both endorphin and heroin -- how can a moral argument possibly be leveled against that?

Well, anyway, if the argument is less interesting than I think (and I suspect it might be, given all those drugs I took) I hope you guys at least get a kick out of the link.
 
 
Mister Snee
13:50 / 13.12.03
(Incidentally, if anyone thinks this would be better-placed on the Head Shop, then so do I. ^-^)
 
 
Jack Fear
14:01 / 13.12.03
My brain wants to lie in bed eating junk food and masturbating all day.

Is that "wrong" in a moral sense? No. But just because it's "natural" is no argument in favor of doing it.

Taking drugs is like having sex with a rubber doll: not so much an extension of a natural physicaal urge as a substitute for it.

Is it "wrong" in a moral sense? Maybe not. But neither is it a particularly healthy thing.
 
 
Caleigh
14:24 / 13.12.03
what is unhealthy about ingesting objects for their effects on us?

is eating chocolate once a week better for you than dropping LSD once a week?

everyone owns their body and chooses to use this vehicle in their own way. straight edge people tend to promote the idea that somehow our bodies should only be fed the proteins, carbohydrates etc. found in what is commonly designated "food". but if you want to get high you can just drink LOTS of water (and I mean LOTS).

this discussion is pure one of personal esthetics (how do i want to live my life) and there surely is no "right" or "wrong" stance.
 
 
Mister Snee
14:36 / 13.12.03
Now hold on, Jack. Your brain obviously doesn't want to lie in bed masturbating all day, not today, anyway, or you wouldn't be up on the computer instead.

When I referred to what our "brains" want I meant what -we- want, what we want as organisms, who are at least apparently compelled primarily by their brains. ^-^

So while there's a part of all of our brains that would rather be masturbating and scarfing down gummy candies right now, on the whole we'd eventually find the novelty wore off.

And then we'd want to go do other things, which is healthy. There's nothing unhealthy about drugs being one of the things you do sometimes. There doesn't seem to be any other way to react to the urge to change your neurochemistry, and the only other choice is abstinence. Abstinence, however, hasn't worked for me.
 
 
Mister Snee
14:37 / 13.12.03
(By the way, you can't really get high on water, you just get diarrhea, nausea, disorientation, hyponatremia and eventually death. I once drank a bunch of water to see if it would make me throw up, and I didn't, but I did poop. A lot.)
 
 
Mister Snee
14:45 / 13.12.03
Please note that having re-read my entire statement regarding the psychoactive inefficacy of a water overdose, I'd like to retract it. -_-
 
 
eye landed
09:49 / 14.12.03
Taking drugs is as normal and natural as eating food, and it probably has a history as long as brains themselves. Food for the body, drugs for the brain. The cells of our lower 48 are specialized to use certain chemicals in plants and other things we pick up. It's hardly surprising that our brains do likewise. Not all these chemicals are healthy, not all are harmful, most can be either. Morally, it's comparable to asking whether it's more evil to eat your spaghetti soggy or al dente.

Please note that having re-read my entire statement regarding the psychoactive inefficacy of a water overdose, I'd like to retract it. -_-

Alright, Mister Snee, but I'm going to remember the bit about the pooping.

My brain wants to lie in bed eating junk food and masturbating all day.

Get an job in an office, and you can let it do so. You certainly won't need it to come with you.
 
 
Cailín
03:07 / 15.12.03
Not to say that I've always behaved especially rationally in this arena, but I still believe we should have a high level of personal responsibility. So when it comes to a moral argument about drug use, I can only say this: avoid the whole can of worms - all things in moderation. And, if you don't want to go that route, but want to avoid the moral debate, before doing any drug with the potential to have unfortunate consequences, maybe pin a note to your shirt saying something like, "No one else should be held responsible for my care should I drug myself to the point of brain damage. In the event of a permanently damaging overdose, or deterioration due to my substance abuse, feel free to step over me, or throw me in the nearest river. Either way, I am not your problem."
This is not to say that I have never used any mind-altering substances, and this is not to say that I don't advocate helping those who want to kick a habit. I have and I do. This is just to say that, when you opt to take something that inevitably will alter the natural chemical balance of your brain, there is still a moral argument to be made for your right to do so, and its name is Burden.
 
 
Elbereth
14:43 / 15.12.03
taking drugs has to be taken in context. If you are taking peyote on a spiritual quest with a babysitter to make sure you don't hurt yourself then it's only your brain. If you are a surgon taking speed to stay on your feet for longer then you are just endangering your patients (even though you r brain can be stimulated natrually to stay up longer). If you get stoned before work you are probably not doing your job properly(even though some people act stoned naturally). If you get rowdy drunk and roam the streets making obscene comments to passerbyers you are probably going to anger people and hurt yourself (or them). Also if you are taking something which you can possibly O.D. on you are costing people money that could have to revive you or bury you. If you do any of these things naturally (except the O.Ding one) you probably are already fired, in jail, or in a mental institute. So while it is not necessarily moral or unmoral to do drugs, the consequences of your actions are moral or unmoral regardless of whether or not they come about by natural means or artificial ones.
 
 
Mister Snee
01:28 / 17.12.03
So some people believe there's nothing wrong with taking drugs, which is what I personally believe, and some other people believe there might actually be something wrong with taking drugs after all, which is my belief's opposite that I nonetheless cheerfully accept the theoretical validity of (of course).

That's fascinating!
 
 
diz
15:33 / 17.12.03
This is just to say that, when you opt to take something that inevitably will alter the natural chemical balance of your brain, there is still a moral argument to be made for your right to do so, and its name is Burden.

does this mean i have a right to tell the portly guy at McDonald's to start eating right and to get his fat ass on the treadmill, because his unhealthy lifestyle is putting a strain on the healthcare system?

maybe, maybe not, but i suspect that obesity and poor diet probably cause a much bigger burden on society than a relative handful of junkies and burnouts ever could.

mind you, i'm sucking down a Coke as i type this, so this isn't a holier-than-thou sort of thing. it's just that if you start asserting a general societal right to intervene in the health choices of individuals, it doesn't stop logically with drugs.

So while it is not necessarily moral or unmoral to do drugs, the consequences of your actions are moral or unmoral regardless of whether or not they come about by natural means or artificial ones.

this is pretty much where i am on this. if you do something you shouldn't because you're on drugs, you shouldn't have done the drugs.

i also believe that most adults are capable of handling most drugs under the right circumstances without catastrophic consequences, and the damage caused by the few who can't is greatly outweighed by the cost and other negative side-effects of the War on Drugs. in America, if we took the money we spent trying to stop drug use and put it into education and economic development, we'd have fewer people becoming heavy drug users because they'd have a realistic chance at a future worth looking forward to. almost all the people i've known who've handled their drugs poorly have had one or more of the following in their backgrounds:

1) overprotective parents who wouldn't allow them to make their own decisions growing up, and hence they never learned how, and ended up with the self-control and judgement of a hyperactive flea.
2) severe emotional trauma in their past from rape, abuse, or some kind of violence, or other severe pre-existing psychological problems like bipolar disorder or schizophrenia.
3) no future. i grew up in a smallish town in post-industrial northern New Jersey, where job prospects for a lot of people are pretty much shit. if i was looking at a lifetime of working at the grocery store or the Dairy Queen in East Buttfuck, NJ, i'd get fucked up, too. and my area is positively wealthy compared to the really depressed urban ghettoes and whatnot.
 
 
macrophage
12:18 / 18.12.03
We can either use drugs or let them use you. We can play with them or let the demon of addictions take hold. You just gotta keep yer head high above water. Going through a detox from them is a gnosis in itself! Even the bad times are an experience to be learned from. Still I'll always have special memories for the first times that I took certain drugs - don't we all - it's like losing yer virginty! Some people seem to exist in the good drugs vs. bad drugs camp which I find very interesting, let's face it, it's now the 21st Century and drugs are pritty much accepted.
 
 
LykeX
14:29 / 18.12.03
I guess I'm kinda split on this subject. The hardest drug I myself use is caffeine. I don't smoke, don't drink, don't do any of the illegal drugs. However, I have to accept other people's right to do as they please. After all, if I wanted to do drugs, I would, and NOBODY should tell me otherwise.
Several years ago, I tried smoking pot; the result was two weeks wasted completely, so I dropped that. But if others can handle it, and get something out of it; be my guest.
I guess it all comes down to the fact that I don't want anybody telling me what to do, and if I'm going to be consistent, I have to let other people have that right as well.

Regarding the original argument that "we're all on drugs anyway", I think it's important to emember that those drugs are naturally occuring in our bodies, whatever we drink/smoke/sniff is added from the outside. No doubt any drug can be used responsibly under the right circumstanses (consider what an operating room would sound like if we had no anaesthetics: Screaming, crying), but the same drug can also cause permanent dammage and death.
Our own chemicals are unlikely to do this. In most people, though, of course there are exceptions, these drugs regulate themselves automatically, thus making them completely harmless.
When we add drugs from the outside, we mess up this regulating system.
Basically, drugs should mainly be administered by doctors in response to some sort of illness. And if you're planning to take drugs, you should do exactly that: Plan. Research. Know what you're getting yourself into. There's noone to blame but yourself if things go wrong.

Enough rambling for now.
 
  
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