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Algerian blokes in cafe: you have to give up homosexuality or go to hell for eternity

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21:07 / 11.12.03

Hi griffle again.

I went to my usual haunt, Sahara Cafe, in Leeds. I go there every-day for a pot of mint tea and a hookah/sheesha/nagillah. I usually go for apple flavour, although my favourite so far is yummy orange (but you can only seem to get that on the edgware road in london).

Anyway when i got there it was the usual cool medley of people and skipping between speaking in arabic/french/english/spanish with various friends and aquaintances.

The owner even came up to me tonight to tell me he had bought one sheesha, with my name painted on in gold letters, for my exclusive use as I am one of his best customers!

Anyway i got into a convo with this Algerian guy who i am hoping will become a paying pupil (of english convo). After about an hour his mate arrived. We started talking about religion. I definatley believe in the spiritual world, demons, gods etc as one of my antecedents was a white witch and clairvoyant. I told him i thought judaism, christianity and islam were mainly forms of social control. Coming from an anthropological standpoint i told him that humans had survived for 3 or 4 million years without islam and if we survive for another 3 or 4 million years islam will not even be a footnote in history. I think there is a lot of value in shamanistic religion.

I then told him perhaps the main reason i reject these religions is their attitude towards homosexualty. He told me this was very wrong, that i should give up gay sex and force myself to be straight.

It was pretty shocking for me to be face to face with people who thought i should be cured of homosexuality.

I feel upset and confused.

21:31 / 11.12.03

You've led a sheltered life, son. I'm sorry that this is how you had to learn about it this way, but there it is.

Get a helmet.

That said: telling a guy that his religion is a power-scam that "won't even merit a footnote" wasn't exactly a brilliant conversational gambit, was it?

21:43 / 11.12.03

i think its time we finished with religion anyway, at least all the leperous anti-gay ones anyway

21:45 / 11.12.03

i usually keep my mouth shut about religion. this guy seemed so evangelical that i had to speak out against him and speak my mind.

21:53 / 11.12.03

plus its pretty doubtful any religion will be remembered in 3-4 million years. Theyll probably just say there was a sophisticated culture perhaps with certain beliefs of which we know fuck all because no records survive - before going out to rituall sacrifice a blue wo-tixian warthog to the 3 headed goddess of penises chumba

21:54 / 11.12.03

i think its time we finished with religion anyway, at least all the leperous anti-gay ones anyway

And there are many in this world who think it's time we finished with gays anyway, at least all the leprous anti-religion ones. I sympathise with you, Griffle, really I do, but if you're gonna be wildly dismissive of someone's worldview, you shouldn't be te-e-erribly surprised when he evangelises against yours.

21:55 / 11.12.03

And you somehow expected the outcome to be different than it was?

The Berbers have a saying, my friend: "If a man puts a cord around his neck, God will provide someone to tighten it."

22:29 / 11.12.03

hmmm, i dont think youve quite understood.

I study anthropology so cultural-relativity is like bread and butter to me, i am aware of this concept.

However i did not feel like sucking up to his religion.

what he and you are asking me to do is consider that being gay might be wrong maybe even outright evil that is what i cant come to terms with

22:32 / 11.12.03

He said my sexuality is evil. I said his beliefs were a crock of shit. He can change his beliefs. I cannot change my sexuality

23:27 / 11.12.03

two things;

1)
ganesh, is there a more reasoable man than you? (if you answer this, it best be an hilarious response, cos we don't need one)

2)
one CAN forget one's sexuality, one would just feel like one was living a bit of a lie. much like a person who had forsaken thier religion because someone in a pub told them it was an anachronism and a sham.

00:09 / 12.12.03

...what he and you are asking me to do is consider that being gay might be wrong maybe even outright evil that is what i cant come to terms with

I personally am not asking you to do any such thing.

I would, however, counsel you to pick your battles.

No one is asking you to "suck up to his religion." But surely it would be more profitable, not to mention tactful, to simply sidestep the issue or change the subject?

If cultural relativity really is your bread and butter, then you must have had some inkling that there are people out there who don't think as you think, don't feel as you feel.

One of his beliefs is that you can change your sexuality, and that he cannot/should not change his beliefs. Do you see?

There's a point where it's not worth arguing the toss, where you just have to agree to disagree and just. walk. away.

If you haven't figured that out, then all the cult.studs in the world won't do you any good: without a fundamental understanding of basic human interactions, not to mention simple good manners, you're screwed.

I'm starting to suspect this is a wind-up, Griffle.

00:28 / 12.12.03

Is Leeds in Wales?

Spyder Todd 2008

01:04 / 12.12.03

Based on my interpretation of what you've explained, you probably should have known better. But, I wasn't there, so it's possible that maybe he came off a lot more hostile than needed or something.

I've had these conversations with assholes too. No matter what happened, I hope you told him to sod off. Just to see his expression.

01:12 / 12.12.03

My father told me that if an Algerian ever tells me to give up gay sex, I should punch him right in the kisser.

Or was that kiss him in the puncher? I'll check with him next time there's a visiting day at the convent.

I'm Rick Jones, bitch

03:02 / 12.12.03

You sound pretty venomous about islam dude.

I disagree totally with his homophobia (hate homophobes) but no-one's an angel of tolerance in this situation.

Also, it's pretty hard to change ingrained religous beliefs, and fairly condescending of you to suggest he should.

foot long subbacultcha

07:52 / 12.12.03

We've been around for 3-4 million years?

07:58 / 12.12.03

Insallah! All praise to Allah!
Griffle, don't be upset and shocked, laugh and let it go. For goodness' sake, Algerian Muslims aren't going to be sympathetic to homosexuality.
I'm amazed you can go into those cafes, I'm always too scared. Mind you the ones I'm talking about are on Green Lanes in Tottenham, so they're more Turkish Muslims, and also I suspect a lot more drug running and organised crime goes on than in Leeds. That's probably why it's scary, thinking about it...

You're probably better off discussing delicious tobacco in a smoking cafe, and saving the cultural relativism for when someone takes you to a gay bar, gay bar, gay bar.

08:09 / 12.12.03

Actually what I meant to say was give up gay sex and find a wife, or burn in the ten thousand hells, infidel.

(Scoobyjah- if you study shamanic worldviews you'll realise that time was invented in early history, usually coughed up by a snake or dropped by a sky god, so we could have been around for bazillions of years, then discovered linear time. Or else Griffle could be exaggerating, or possibly poorly informed...)

Tryphena Absent

08:10 / 12.12.03

Hi griffle. Tryphena Sparks here again.

The other day someone told me that Christianity is just the result of the natural evolution of Judaism. Naturally I stood up violently, causing my chair to fall backwards, pushed my fist right in to their nose, breaking it and causing a stream of blood to simultaneously shoot out of both their nostrils and then, having won another battle against the evils of religion, did a victory dance on the table top landing my foot in a bowl of custard (we were eating at the time you see).

Scrambled Password Bogus Email

08:18 / 12.12.03

The Dao is wise. Do not speak of it, for it will get in a huff.

or:

Better to keep your mouth shut and appear a fool than open it and banish all doubt.

Dude, don't talk about religion to religious people! I thought everyone knew that?

Ex

09:16 / 12.12.03

I've been there (I mena, literally, to that cafe, not in terms of social unease and being upset, although that also). It's a nice place. The upstairs decor is all squidgy and warming. They did good chocolate cake last time I was there.
They're also a place where Algerian Muslims can hang out and eat cake, which I think is a central thing... I'm going to suggest that this kind of friendly space should perhaps be respected - that if you'd both been sitting on a park bench then you could have had a pleasant ding-dong about cultural relativism, but slapping an atni-religious anthropological position down on the table in a community base for a predominantly Muslim bunch of blokes seems - a bit sharpish. I know you spend a lot of time in there. I'm not saying you shouldn't be there. I'm not saying they're right.
Possibly the other chap was feeling either more open or more defensive then he would have been on the mythical park bench. Possibly had he been in a gay cafe (I can reccomend Roots and Fruits in the arcade - I could never work out if it was Gay gay, or just generally bohemian and advertsising in all the gay press - anyway, they serve Fentiman's ginger ale) he would have respected the friendly space there and been less homophobic. Probably he's never going to go into a gay friendly space.

Anyway, to reverse the situation in a particularly crude way - if you'd been hanging out in a gay pub and someone you'd just met told you that gay identity is a form of social control, that "homosexuality" was invented in the late Victorian period, and in the next 3 million years it won't even be a footnote in history - would you have been pissed off?
Because, dude. I'm interested in queer theory, I believe all of the above to some extent, but I wouldn't walk round a gay bar shouting it because I think it's contextually innapropriate and could be offensive.
Good luck in future - I hope you meet less homophobic people, and offend less people on religious grounds.

10:30 / 12.12.03

what he and you are asking me to do is consider that being gay might be wrong maybe even outright evil that is what i cant come to terms with

No, I'm asking you to tolerate the existence of a worldview that is offensive to you - particularly if you seriously expect him to tolerate a sexuality which is offensive to him. It's about extending a degree of respect to people with whom one disagrees, even vehemently. You know you're correct, so you can afford to be a little magnanimous.

We're The Great Old Ones Now

10:35 / 12.12.03

Uh, Griffle, he can't "change his beliefs". You say that because you don't share them. His beliefs tell him that there is One True Way. Yours tell you that There Isn't. You're at liberty to pick and choose. As far as he's concerned, he's not. The fact that his beliefs are a bunch of Wahhabist cockfunk generated at the interface of revolutionary Marxism, Islam, and National Self-Determination in a quasi-colonial era is not relevant. You'd probably do better to find a friendly modern Imam and ask him or her (yes, there are a very few female Imams) how to argue your case. Assuming you want to.

10:41 / 12.12.03

He said my sexuality is evil. I said his beliefs were a crock of shit.

And hey, maybe he's writing about the experience on an Internet message-board at this very moment!

He can change his beliefs. I cannot change my sexuality

That's arguable in either direction...

Regrettable Juvenilia

11:01 / 12.12.03

Those crazy Turkish Muslims with their drug-running and their organised crime!

11:09 / 12.12.03

And unabashed buggery, IIRC.

11:27 / 12.12.03

Aww, don't be cruel, I don't think Quantum was deliberately making sweeping statements. I used to live five minutes from Green Lanes, and it can be a little scary.

Regrettable Juvenilia

11:37 / 12.12.03

Fair enough. I get so used to ridiculous sweeping statements on Barbelith that I occasionally see them when they're not actually there...

11:41 / 12.12.03

Slightly odd comments about the Turkish community aside, this thread vaguely reminds me of the lightbulb joke: how many Barbelithers is is going to take to state the blindingly fucking obvious? I think this guy’s yanking your chain. He posts, like 5 times on the trot last night to keep bumping his thread to the top and then fucks off. This isn’t a debate. You’re all saying the same thing. Although you’re being much more witty/insightful/grammatical than this multilingual would-be writer who’s doing an MA in anthropology.

For the record, I agree with everything you’ve already said. Apart from the sweeping statements about Turkish cafes, obviously.

12:04 / 12.12.03

If you had ever met me you would know I am a very sensitive person. I do usually avoid religious discussion. On this instance I was trying to get inside the head of this moslem guy. I almost got to the point where i could see possible reasons to adopt his worldview albeit temporarily. The one problem i always have with islam/christianity is their stance on homosexuality. We were having a frank open discussion so I came out with the fact that i couldnt square my gayness with islam. He wasnt gay-bashing me he was actually pretty nice.

All I am saying is that I have studied about clash of cultures and the like but it was only last night that it hit home personally that some of these things can never really be resolved.

Ex

12:11 / 12.12.03

I think this guy’s yanking your chain. He posts, like 5 times on the trot last night to keep bumping his thread to the top and then fucks off.

I assumed he'd been demoralised. It can be a weird experience to launch your little anecdote - of dreams or grievances - out into the world and then see other people interract with it in a way you didn't intend. His last thread got a lot of hardheaded solid advice, and this one's been mainly "Well, you did slag off his religion, dude".
Maybe I'm being patronising but possibly he was hoping for an all-round "Being gay is a Good Thing"/"It's a shame that religions often contain homophobic elements"/"Homophobia can be really upsetting".
So, voila, there it is in wholehearted sans serif. Still stand by my earlier observations, though.

12:12 / 12.12.03

Fine. Unfounded accusation retracted. I’m a dingbat, but everyone else on this thread has said clever and wise things which you might want to consider.

12:21 / 12.12.03

Thanks. Its just that i sometimes drive myself crazy trying to square all these different points of view (religion/homosexuality) inside my head. Part of this is probably because i believe there is always some compromise or middle ground, which isnt always true.

I am trying to just accept the world as it is in reality and not how i would like to imagine it to be

anyway,i still got my pipe with my name embossed on it in gold lettering, so i must be doing somthing (paying him money ereyy day) right.

12:23 / 12.12.03

how many Barbelithers is is going to take to state the blindingly fucking obvious? I think this guy’s yanking your chain.

Dude, I raised this possibility, oh, about twenty posts ago.

12:25 / 12.12.03

We thought you were yanking our chain, Jack.

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