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The Obligations of Parents Toward Their Grown Children, and Vice-Versa (RANT)

  
 
Abigail Blue
15:06 / 08.12.03
So I emigrated from Canada to the USA about 9 months ago, in order to get married. My father, being a crotchety old American-hating Frenchman (who also can't stand being in the same room as my mother)didn't come to my wedding. Not because he disapproved, you understand, but because Americans are savages and he would rather poke his own eyes out than see my mother. At the time, people said "Oh, how terrible for you. You must be very upset". And I said "No, no. He's just like that. He raised me and I love him in spite of all of his idiosyncrasies".

Over the course of the next seven months or so, I went slowly crazy from homesickness and missing my family (since if I crossed the border, I wouldn't be allowed back into the USA). My father seemed to briefly consider coming to visit me, but changed his mind on hearing that I might be allowed home for X-mas. It was a long drive, you see, and in hostile territory. "How selfish", people said, "You must be very angry". "No, no," I said, "I understand that he's just not comfortable driving for so long. I'm disappointed but I understand".

So I'm finally allowed to go home. I've just bought my ticket, and called him to ask if he could come and pick me up at the station after my twelve to fourteen-hour train ride, to which he responded that it would take him at least 2 hours to get there (which is a gross exaggeration) and that I should get onto another fucking train for an additional 45 minutes to get to his house. Because it would be inconvenient for him, you see, and he hates city driving. "Wow. What an asshole," people say. "Aaaaaaaaargh! Fuck!", I say in response.

So now I'm considering not going home at all. I figure, if he can't make any effort at all to see me, if he can't even make the effort to inconvenience himself for a few short hours, why the hell should I greatly inconvenience myself by sitting on a train for twelve hours and spending X-mas away from my husband? Hmmm? Why should I?

In speaking to my step-mother about how ridiculously selfish I think he's being, she pointed out that he's being stubborn since he feels that parents shouldn't have to drop everything whenever their children need something. I've tried pointing out that it's hardly asking him to "drop everything" by advising him a month in advance that I'd need a lift from the station. I've also tried pointing out that he's always expected me to "drop everything" every time he wanted the rugs vacuumed or the laundry done.

But it got me thinking: What are the responsibilities of parents toward their grown children? What can said grown children reasonably expect from their parents? I've always accepted my father's little quirks, even when they really hurt me, but I'm reluctant to laugh this one off and act as if it's okay.

Thoughts? Am I being childish, here? It should also be noted that I've been living on my own since I was 17 years old (8 years now), and not receiving financial support from my parents for anything (with the exception of some much-appreciated financial bail-outs), so it's not as if I've been a leach. Grrrr. Anyone in Toronto want to kick him repeatedly in the shins for me? I'll pay you....
 
 
Abigail Blue
15:11 / 08.12.03
Barbelith is magical. I feel so much better just having typed it out.

I'll feel even better if someone takes me up on kicking him, though. Baz Auckland, I'm talking to you: We have the same birthday! I know you want to kick a smelly old French man... And I'll kick someone for you next time I'm in town, I promise.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
15:13 / 08.12.03
"I've tried pointing out that it's hardly asking him to "drop everything" by advising him a month in advance that I'd need a lift from the station. I've also tried pointing out that he's always expected me to "drop everything" every time he wanted the rugs vacuumed or the laundry done. "

Think this is the crux, (and warn you, i may be projecting own stuff here). You can't have it both ways. If you expect yr kids to rally round you/help you out, you should expect to do the same for them.

I've a similar situation of realising that my parents seem to subscribe to the idea of familial connection/duty when it suits them, but when it doesn't, shut us out.

It's fucking infuriating, isn't it?
 
 
Char Aina
16:07 / 08.12.03
ask him if he thinks seeing you is important.
tell him you think seeing him is important, and that you are willing to spend the twelve hours you mentioned travelling, because it is that important.

then ask him if seeing you is important enough to him to drive for over an hour.

if he still argues, dont go.
 
 
Char Aina
16:11 / 08.12.03
one thing to bear in mind is that if you are going to stay away for reasons like these, make sure they know why.
if you just dont turn up, your parents will be able to project whatever reasons on to your actions.
 
 
Char Aina
16:25 / 08.12.03
on a slightly more general tip, i think that our parents perhaps are obliged to us. they are obliged to fund our living at first and to train us in the ways of self-sufficiency so that we may support oursleves.

they are obliged to do this because they are directly responsible for our existence, and often our entire standard of living/situation.
 
 
Papess
16:31 / 08.12.03
I am in Montreal...think he would pick me up at the station in Toronto so I could kick his shins fer ya?

Sorry to hear you are having this kind of unnecessary stress from family.
 
 
Abigail Blue
16:35 / 08.12.03
Thanks, and yeah, it is fucking infuriating.

I'm really struggling right now with not being, or appearing to be spiteful. You're right that I need to be very clear about why I'm doing what I'm doing. He's sent me a money order to help pay for the ticket, and I'm going to return it to him. But I have to be careful to explain that I'm returning it to express that his money means less to me than he does himself, which I don't think he understands. There's a lot of room for misinterpretation here.

I think I've come to a point with both of my parents where I feel as if I'm expected to be the adult while they act like spoiled children. I had always assumed that we were all adults, but the behavioural patterns in these relationships have become so much clearer now that I'm not there in person.

Is there any point when we stop being our parents' children? I mean hopefully, at some point, the parent-child relationship becomes more of a peer relationship, but does that mean that we no longer feel as if we should be protected (for lack of a better word) by them, to some degree? Is it misguided to expect more from one's parents than from one's friends? And, if not, why do we put up with shit from our parents that we would never, ever countenance from other adults in our lives? The whole "You don't choose your family" thing aside, shouldn't we hold our families to the same standards as those to which we hold our other relationships? And, if so, how do we divorce ourselves from the constraints of the parent-child construct long enough to speak/act objectively, or to have our actions/words seen and heard objectively?

I've been trying to figure this out for years, and haven't really come up with anything better than a strangled desire to scream "Get a fucking therapist! Leave me alone!" to my mother...
 
 
Abigail Blue
16:37 / 08.12.03
Thanks for that, May.
 
 
Papess
17:01 / 08.12.03
You are welcome Abigail. Glad to be of service...

I think most people expect more from close friends and family...especially parents, but in reality, these are the relationships that always cause the most damage because people get sloppy and realise - no matter what, you are always going to be there. If people actually had the real sense that they could loose you at any given moment...maybe they would go and pick you up at the airport and stop bitching about how inconvenient it is.

I realise now that I have had "friends" like this...they didn't even show up at the hospital when I had my baby...I had my son all alone, with no family or friends around me. I think that sucks, but whatever...I think I developed bad judgement in my friends and lovers because my family is so nasty to each other...snide comments are a way of life with them. I think some people just watch too many sitcoms and then try to imitate the humour, not really realising that it is not actually funny IRL!. Idiots.
 
 
Cheap. Easy. Cruel.
17:45 / 08.12.03
Is there any point when we stop being our parents' children? I mean hopefully, at some point, the parent-child relationship becomes more of a peer relationship, but does that mean that we no longer feel as if we should be protected (for lack of a better word) by them, to some degree?

Nope, I think that they will always see you as an eight-year-old with a skinned knee on some level. Not that that is a bad thing, but it can be infuriating. It also depends on the parent, some will let go of their children more than others. I have friends of mine whose parents still think they have to do everything for them.

I don't think that we should feel as protected by our parents once we graduate to a peer relationship with them. I don't really wish to have either of my parents protect me. I like to be able to talk to them and reap the benefits of their more experienced point of view, but I don't see the need for either of them to be a protector anymore.
 
 
Abigail Blue
18:05 / 08.12.03
I think that 'protect' was the wrong word. (Self-)Righteous indignation has eaten my brain.

What I meant wasn't so much whether our parents should protect us when we're adults, but whether we should feel a kind of privilege in relation to our parents. Er, that's not very clear. Let's try this: Should one feel more entitled to the consideration of one's parents than, say, a houseguest or some other adult would? I mean, I'm pretty sure that my father wouldn't tell his mother to take the bus from the airport if she had just flown in from France, but he had no qualms telling me to do so the last time I was there. I realize that, in close relationships we tend to take liberties with each other, but is there a line? And, if there isn't, how do we draw one?

I guess my problem is just the opposite of Steelwelder's. I don't think that my parents ever saw me as an eight-year-old with a skinned knee: Even when I was one.

I'm just going to let it all out, here, folks. This is now officially the Abigail Blue Talks Endlessly About Her Dysfunctional Family thread.
 
 
Cheap. Easy. Cruel.
18:17 / 08.12.03
Ah, I see. Thank you for the clarification. Yes, I think that you should expect to have more consideration from your parents than some random houseguest would. I don't think that the lack thereof should be allowed to ruin your relationship with your dad. I never had a great relationship with my dad as I was growing up, he was simply not there for most of my childhood. Once I became an adult, I began to seek him out to try to find out what he was like so I could understand myself more. It has been a very enlightening experience. Beneath the crusty, bigoted, opinionated exterior; I have found somewhat of a philosopher who has a great deal of life experience that has steered me clear of problems more than once.
 
 
Abigail Blue
18:29 / 08.12.03
I don't think that the lack thereof should be allowed to ruin your relationship with your dad -Steelwelder

I agree. I think that people are, in general, too quick to declare relationships unworkable. For the most part, I've built a good adult relationship with my father. We had a very rough time when I was a teenager, but we got over it, and I thought that we would never have any more problems, ever. Which is naive and silly, but it's what I believed.

I'm more than willing to work this out with him: I don't stay angry for very long, and I'd rather have a father than be right. My biggest family trait is stubbornness, but I've inherited the least of it: I'm the mediator/compromise broker, and have been as long as I can remember. But, right now, I'm still in the hurt/angry stage.

I'm glad that you've been able to build a relationship with your father. That sounds kind of trite, but it's sincere.
 
 
Char Aina
18:47 / 08.12.03
I mean, I'm pretty sure that my father wouldn't tell his mother to take the bus from the airport if she had just flown in from France, but he had no qualms telling me to do so the last time I was there.

and that perhaps shows us how to best understand the man.
(i dont know him or you, so dont take my opinion to heart)
maybe he sees his role as 'father-as-round-the-clock-protector'as being complete, and has a different take on your new roles to you.
maybe in 'his day' kids respected their parents without question and looked after them in old age.

would you go and pick him up if he came to town?
and would you see that as an obligation due to being raised and cared for by him, or would you see it as 'just what you do' when people visit?

maybe he isnt thinking the same way?



I never had a great relationship with my dad as I was growing up, he was simply not there for most of my childhood.

mine was there(technically) for years 0-8, and then i was sent away to boarding school. marriage failure followed for my parents, and i then saw less and less of dad. i still blame him for the most part, what with him refusing to leave africa for either his wife or his kids.
(its a long story, but i am pretty sure i am not too far off in holding him responsible. his current wife and he met in 87, my mum and he broke up in 88.)
i have made the effort to understand him and where he is coming from, but i dont feel that the effort is reciprocated in any way. i have been met with speeches(from the new partnership, never from only one of them) about such great notions as my duty as a son to travel to him in far flung third world countries and my poor placing in the leader board of shared siblings.(i gained two step-brothers and one step sister, all of whom are prefect and dux material.)

i have in many ways had an amazing life, with sights others dream of seeing marking my school holidays. i have also never had a strong male figure in my life, having had to instead rely on my gran for a dad in most situations. she's great on every subject except sex, an understandable weakness i reckon.

i dont hate dad, i do hate what he has done.

i also hate that he has never sat me down and told me about the divorce, in all the years that have passed.


i feel like i owe him less than nothing, and the occasional bit of financial help he gives me (always at his suggestion and within a framework he can understand) does nothing to make me feel obliged.

i would not miss him if he died, although obviously i say this with the luxury that he has not. maybe i will feel differently about it when he does.
 
 
bitchiekittie
19:02 / 08.12.03
nobody "owes" anyone anything. the things you do for your family, you do out of concern, respect, love. it's not always 50/50, but you do it anyway - because, honestly, when you do things for him (or anyone you care for) do you really do it with your mind on potential future rewards/returns? nope!

so he doesn't appreciate you, your actions, the way you feel he should, that's a definite. but the point is, YOU love HIM. if it would hurt you to not see him then you need to go, do it. this isn't a bad relationship with an SO that you can leave behind, this is someone that you need to work with. big old glaring flaws and all.
 
 
Abigail Blue
19:15 / 08.12.03
would you go and pick him up if he came to town?
and would you see that as an obligation due to being raised and cared for by him, or would you see it as 'just what you do' when people visit?- toksik

I would go pick him up, yes. I don't drive, so this is a bit of a hairy proposition, but I would get someone to go and get him, and I would go with them. If no one was available to pick him up, I would offer to take transit or a cab to meet him. Not so much for either of the reasons you stated, but because that's what I'd like somebody to do for me. It's nice to get off an aeroplane or a train and be met by a familiar, welcoming face.

i have been met with speeches(from the new partnership, never from only one of them)...- toksik

Yeah, why do parents do that shit? My mother pulled that with my brother and I when she married my step-father, and it alienated the hell out of us. My father-in-law pulled that with my husband and his sister, and it alienated the hell out of them, too.

Now that I'm a step-mother, I'm really careful to not make the mistakes that were made with me. I make sure that my step-son gets time alone with his father, and I respect the fact that the step-parent-step-child relationship isn't a right: That relationship has to be developed over a long period of time. Marrying someone's parent doesn't automatically make you a loved and respected parental figure. It's so obvious, but most of the people I know who have step-parents tell the same story... I'll tell you, though: Being a step-parent is incredibly difficult. I have a whole lot more respect for my step-mother now that I know what it's like.

i also hate that he has never sat me down and told me about the divorce, in all the years that have passed.- toksik

My mother left my father, my brother, and I when I was 9. At the time, she insisted that she wasn't leaving my father for another man, but she really was.

I was never angry about the action itself, I was angry about the lie. I feel as if children deserve to be told the truth. I understood, at 9, that my mother was a human being who needed to be happy, and that's why she was leaving. I would have understood if she had been honest and said that she was in love with someone else. After all, that shit happens in the real world, and kids are strong enough to know that.

Now, my mother is eaten alive by her own guilt, which she's constantly looking to me to assuage. I, of course, can do nothing for her, since she's the one crucifying herself. I hate the endless justifications. I think that we have to stand behind our actions, and admit that, although we did the best we could at the time, it was lacking. There's no shame in that.

Maybe what we owe each other as parents and children is honesty. I've always believed that it's the responsibility of children to challenge their parents' complacency and help them to grow as human beings, just as it's the responsibility of parents to provide a framework in which their children can grow.

I'm sorry that you haven't had that honesty from your father.
 
 
Char Aina
19:15 / 08.12.03
nobody "owes" anyone anything. the things you do for your family, you do out of concern, respect, love. it's not always 50/50, but you do it anyway - because, honestly, when you do things for him (or anyone you care for) do you really do it with your mind on potential future rewards/returns?

i think the use of the word 'owe' may be misleading, but there is a sense of obligation to any person who gives you life and explains life to you.
i certainly owe my mum my life, and i dont mean because i signed some pseudo-faustian death-pact with her to get a better christmas present.



the point is, YOU love HIM. if it would hurt you to not see him then you need to go, do it. this isn't a bad relationship with an SO that you can leave behind, this is someone that you need to work with. big old glaring flaws and all.

woah there.
are you talking to me?
if you are i strongly disagree.
if i can live my life with little of him and suffer no more ill effects than have already manifested, then why the heck not?
oh, and i dont know about the loving him...
hm. as i said i wouldnt miss him if he were dead, you were probably talking to the thread starter, abigail blue, werent you?
as ze has said that ze would rather have a father than be right, i reckon ze probably thinks similarly to you.
 
 
bitchiekittie
19:31 / 08.12.03
yes, sorry, was talking to abigail.

and yes, there is a "sense" of obligation, but there IS none. if you have children, they're your responsibility because you chose to have them, and they have no ability to seek alternate options for their care - it's all up to you. when they're grown, anything after you do for the aforementioned love, respect, concern.
 
 
ibis the being
19:47 / 08.12.03
nobody "owes" anyone anything. the things you do for your family, you do out of concern, respect, love. it's not always 50/50, but you do it anyway - because, honestly, when you do things for him (or anyone you care for) do you really do it with your mind on potential future rewards/returns? nope!

I'm 100% with bitchiekittie on this one. AB - It would be a (somewhat) different matter if he demanded you visit and then refused to accomodate you in any way. But right now you are going to see him because YOU miss HIM. Why attach any kind of price tag to that demonstration of love (I miss you but - you'd better give me a lift from the station)? It doesn't matter what the relation is, if you care about someone, you needn't & shouldn't let 'obligation' get all tangled up in your relationship. Why give at all if you're going to give with strings attached? - that's an unwelcome gift, if you ask me.
 
 
Cheap. Easy. Cruel.
19:53 / 08.12.03
I'm the mediator/compromise broker, and have been as long as I can remember.

You wouldn't happen to be the youngest would you, Abigail?

Your situation with your father sounds very similar to mine toksik. I was four when he left, and my step-mother and I developed a very strong dislike for each other in the short time we spent together as I was growing up. As I became an adult I felt a need to get to know him, it has gradually turned into a grudging respect.
 
 
Abigail Blue
20:24 / 08.12.03
It doesn't matter what the relation is, if you care about someone, you needn't & shouldn't let 'obligation' get all tangled up in your relationship. Why give at all if you're going to give with strings attached? - that's an unwelcome gift, if you ask me. - ibis

Look, I understand what you and bitchiekittie are saying, but I think you're off-base. First of all, bk, I completely admit that I need to accept him the way he is. I stated that in a couple of posts, and also stated that I have no intention of abandoning the relationship. Do I do things for him in order to get something in return? Of course not. That's not what I meant by treating others the way I would like to be treated. And I'm genuinely trying to understand the politics of family interactions, not draw up some kind of iron-clad rule book for parent-child relations.

It would be a (somewhat) different matter if he demanded you visit and then refused to accomodate you in any way. But right now you are going to see him because YOU miss HIM. Why attach any kind of price tag to that demonstration of love (I miss you but - you'd better give me a lift from the station)?

That's a little unfair. My first post was really long because I was trying to give a sense of the fact that this type of behaviour isn't an isolated incident. I started this thread because I had the impression that his being my father would change the way his actions were perceived. Substitute 'friend X' for 'father' in this discussion, and I would bet that people would be more willing to say 'that type of behaviour sucks ass and shows no consideration for you'. Does that mean that I don't love him? No! I don't even know where the price-tag aspect comes in...

As my husband pointed out, it's not as if I'm asking him to come and pick me up at the train station and take me to a friend's house. I'm asking him to come and get me so I can spend time with him. I kind of resent the implication that this is only something I want, like he's not getting anything our of it, and so it's okay.

And yeah, Steelwelder, I am the youngest.
 
 
Abigail Blue
20:32 / 08.12.03
To clarify that last post: What I find interesting about this whole thing is that, were he my partner or my best friend, this kind of behaviour would be labelled inconsiderate at best, and condemned. Why does the fact that he's my father get him off the hook?
 
 
Abigail Blue
20:44 / 08.12.03
Sorry for the many posts...

ibis and bitchiekittie, since the word 'obligation' was ill-chosen and seems to be a stumbling-block, I would refer you to this passage from one of my earlier posts, which pretty clearly expresses what I'm trying to understand:

Is it misguided to expect more from one's parents than from one's friends? And, if not, why do we put up with shit from our parents that we would never, ever countenance from other adults in our lives? The whole "You don't choose your family" thing aside, shouldn't we hold our families to the same standards as those to which we hold our other relationships? And, if so, how do we divorce ourselves from the constraints of the parent-child construct long enough to speak/act objectively, or to have our actions/words seen and heard objectively?

Though I appreciate the input, it's not my relationship with my father that I need help understanding, it's the theoretical underpinnings of that relationship. Since, frankly, you don't know me or my father... The more personal bits were venting, not seeking advice.
 
 
Papess
20:52 / 08.12.03
Abigail, I don't think it is too much to ask for a simple lift from your father when you come to see him after a 14 hour flight. Especially since he made no effort to see you..that would be the least he could have done to hold up his end of the parent-child love quotient. I have had it up to my flippin' hair follicles with people who think they can just do whatever they want, say "I love you" or give you a xmas gift and everything is ok.

The other thing I don't believe is that because I share some DNA with someone, that I need to overlook all their crap and just be a doormat. (It may be a hint that you are evolving from your genetic make up with memetic coding.) If they actually love you...or I should say - if they actually understand what it means to love - then they would do what is loving. If they can't and they make you feel bad or waste your time with bullshit, I say - don't bother. That is, if they are toxic to you.

On the other hand...Can't you have a talk with your dad? Maybe you could tell him (nicely) what you have told us here? Or is he not into communicating? Hmm..I think I know the answer to that..but I will not assume anything.
 
 
Abigail Blue
20:59 / 08.12.03
I'll be having this talk with him tonight, May. He's not very good at communicating either his thoughts or his emotions, but he's (slowly) getting better. This thread, and many conversations that I've had over the past two days have been to help me center myself and attempt to clarify what I need to say to him, since screaming and crying and carrying on aren't particularly conducive to fostering dialogue.

Thanks for your concern!
 
 
Papess
21:57 / 08.12.03
That is splendid! I believe the only thing non-communication does is build resentments. If you are kind to him and he responds well to it, he may feel pleased that you trusted him enough to talk to him kindly, openly and honestly, thus giving him the opportunity to be the same way with you.

Good luck with it, I will send you warm thoughts..actually, I already am!
 
 
bio k9
22:18 / 08.12.03
This all sounds so crappy. Good luck to you.
 
  
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