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US Moon Mission 2004

 
  

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8===>Q: alyn
23:20 / 04.12.03
There's a LOT of spin on this story, so figured I'd refer you to an index, rather than one article: Google news sources on US moon mission 2004.

My headline for this NY Post article (granted, not the most reliable news source out there) would be JUMPIN JEHOSPHAT, BUT MR. BUSH HAS GOT SOME STONES:

"The return to the moon would be for the purpose of technological advancements in technology, including energy exploration and testing a military rocket engine.

"And a permanent presence likely will include robots and communication satellites."

Ahem, "technological advancements in technology"? Seriously?

I can remember a few threads on this over the last year (though I can't find them now). Some points to cover:
-What are the odds, really?
-The administration's motives
-If we can put a man on the moon, why can't we (insert American social initiative here)?
-How is it that the NY Post has copy editors on staff and I can't get a permanent job?
 
 
PatrickMM
00:02 / 05.12.03
While I still wouldn't be voting for him in 2004, this would be a really big step for both Bush and the nation as a whole if he makes a real commitment to space travel. We've basically wasted thirty years, so if it takes Bush to set us back on the right track with regards to space travel, so be it. I'm all for this mission, and for the potential mission to Mars, so hopefully 12/17 will be the start of a major change with regard to the way this nation perceives space travel.
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
01:19 / 05.12.03
Yeah, but... Health care. Social security. Education. The defecit. National defense. Fishcakes. I guess it's better for us to have American missiles on the moon than Chinese ones (and this is about missiles, isn't it?), but would someone please tell this motherfucker, I mean President, to do something about his priorities?
 
 
captain piss
08:11 / 05.12.03
So does this suggest the beginning of a new space race with China?

The European space agency have been making noises about going to the moon in the next few years as well, I seem to remember reading. I get the impression that these plans hinge on the moon being a technological proving ground for their capabilities, in lieu of a possible Mars trip, which holds out more real promise, as a space conquest.
Europe are surely well out the picture now. Mind you, the European plans were apparently to have a man on Mars by 2030, from what I can gather, but I think these plans were scaled down recently, with the Moon being a more practical goal for the forseeable future (a weekend away as opposed to a 4-month haul).
(sorry if everyone knows all this already)
 
 
Tryphena Absent
08:39 / 05.12.03
Right. Time to look in to the NASA staff. There's got to be someone there who knows how to turn the US governments military game in to science and human idealism and once you get that, technology that will help people starts to develop from the program. Science always works better under a crazy- shame Bush is such a fascist- America would do better with a Khruschev.
 
 
Lurid Archive
10:11 / 05.12.03
I guess it's better for us to have American missiles on the moon than Chinese ones (and this is about missiles, isn't it?),

Is it? Someone sort me out, but isn't the moon a little distant for missiles? Unless one is thinking of protecting the domination of near earth orbiting missile platforms. Even so...

Yeah, but... Health care. Social security. Education. The defecit. National defense. Fishcakes.

Yeah, but the cuts planned in those services are a deliberate attempt to undermine social provision, not a neccessity of economics. So the choice between them isn't that straightforward.
 
 
rizla mission
10:55 / 05.12.03
Hope I'm not sounding to flippant and dumb in my thinking here, but can't you just imagine a bunch of those bigtime neo-con policy advisor people sitting around going;

"Healthcare? education? Booorrriing! We rule the fucking world, man! C'mon!"

"Moonbase? Experimental military rocket engines? Getting one over on the Euros and the Commies? Now yer talking!"
 
 
PatrickMM
14:29 / 05.12.03
Even if we do go to the moon for military reasons, I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. The only reason we went to the moon the first time was to beat Russia, so if we get into another space race, I think it would help the country. Then, the leaps made by the military would trickle down, and hopefully, cvilian space travel would be the next step.
 
 
krylonuser
21:58 / 05.12.03
The only reason we went to the moon the first time was to beat Russia, so if we get into another space race, I think it would help the country

of course that's only if you believe the U.S landed on the moon in the first place --- *cue rimshot*
 
 
Tryphena Absent
22:52 / 05.12.03
Go and suck a fuck all of you. I hate you, fucking anti-idealists, this is the only good thing Bush is going to do ever if he does it. This is the only good thing fascists ever do. Smile at the only good thing.
 
 
grant
23:33 / 05.12.03
1. It's an election year. I think NASA is already struggling financially, and, well, there's a war on. Go America! Be on the MOON!
I think it'd be cool, but we've already got a space station that's in trouble, and THAT was supposed to be the next big launch platform for space missions....

2. If you really want to try out for a job at the Post, I could probably ask someone who could ask someone, but I don't think you really want that. It's a sick business.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
00:00 / 06.12.03
If they want NASA to go to the moon, they have to give NASA more money to build a vehicle to take them because the shuttles are grounded and the current rockets probably aren't going to be regarded as adequate. Anymore funding for NASA is a very good thing. Space travel is always a good thing. A significant amount of medical technology, food packaging, fucking lightweight umbrellas... do I need to continue with this? No. Everyone knows this. I'm shutting my mouth now... I'm completely obsessed with space flight, this is not a good thread for me to contribute to.

(send a woman, send a woman, send a woman)
 
 
grant
00:47 / 06.12.03
What I'm saying (pretty opaquely) is that I think it'd be great if there actually were the political will to do another manned moon mission, but I strongly suspect this is just hot air to get space fans to vote Bush in 04.
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
01:19 / 06.12.03
Tryphena, this is man talk. Go make me a pie.

I'm not clear on just what we got out of all our previous space missions. Dehydrated ice cream? And we had something resembling a Great Civilisation at the time, so maybe it was reasonable to think about expanding our empire. I think it would be awesome, of course, but it makes me nervous that it's being done by governments. I don't see that ever leading us to our Heinleinesque destiny among the stars. My first reaction was to roll my eyes--I can just see George doing thumbs-up whistle stops dressed in a fishbowl suit next fall--but then I thought, Oh my god, what if it's true and got the heebie jeebies. I don't know what I think the alternative should be. Renaming Mars "The Coca Cola Planet" strikes me as a bit dreary.
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
13:14 / 06.12.03
I don't think there is any way they can land on the moon in 2004. The shuttle might be able to land but almost certainly couldn't take off again and return to the earth (as I understand it part of the reason there's been nothing but unmanned satellites zipping all over the galaxy is that space shuttles are utterly shit for everything except shoving satellites into orbit) and even if they dusted off the old Apollo specs they wouldn't have one built and ready to fly by next year. What I understand about economics would find the interior of a matchbox roomy, but my understanding is that while the American economy looks superficially OK that's due to massive Government borrowing which Bush is hoping will come to haunt the Government only when he's not in power any more.

I doubt there's any intention of this happening, but it's the kind of aspirational stuff that Presidential candidates spout to get headlines.
 
 
cusm
17:52 / 08.12.03
Maybe he thinks they'll find oil there.
 
 
Tom Coates
20:23 / 08.12.03
And space oil's got to be like TWICE as good as boring old EARTH oil!
 
 
diz
15:59 / 09.12.03
my understanding is that while the American economy looks superficially OK that's due to massive Government borrowing which Bush is hoping will come to haunt the Government only when he's not in power any more.

pretty much, yeah. except that it's not just government borrowing: consumer borrowing is totally out of control also. our economy is basically floating along on credit card-fueled shopping sprees and massive government overspending, and the rest of the world is perfectly happy to give us enough rope to hang ourselves with on that count.

but, anyway, back to the topic: this is stupid. certain applications of the space program are good, namely most unmanned applications. others are completely fucking stupid, namely most manned applications.

the fact that we have a network of communications satellites is good, and we need to maintain and upgrade that since it's an essential part of our infrastructure. the same goes for all the weather satellites and whatnot. these are good.

people building a ridiculously expensive settlement on Mars, which has the primary purpose of allowing people to live in a ridiculously expensive settlement on Mars, is complete bullshit, largely geared around letting overgrown children live out their Buck Rogers fantasies. the same goes for the moon missions and all of that.

and, just for the record, i don't buy the technology argument. i don't think that the high-tech plastics we got out of the space program are any better than the ones we would have gotten had we poured the same amount of money into, say, a high-tech plastics research program. if we're doing it for the ancillary benefits of the tech involved, why don't we just cut out the moonwalking middleman and just put government grant money into technological research for earthbound applications? i daresay that not only would it not be any less effective, it would most likely be more effective.
 
 
diz
16:05 / 09.12.03
oh, and if people really want to get their explore on and build pressurized habitats for strange alien environments, may i suggest: the ocean.

it's a lot closer, more likely to be sustainable, generally more interesting, and more likely to result in benefits to those of us outside the exploratory elite.
 
 
grant
17:10 / 09.12.03
Well, the one argument for settling Mars is that it makes it easier to get at whatever wealth is floating out in the asteroid belt. I don't know how much there is out there, but something in me really likes the idea of like a 5,000 ton of platinum floating out there in space like a lost filling.

I don't know that the moon makes as good a stepping stone for Mars.

I do think that if we had to, we could put people on the moon and bring them back next year. The rockets that routinely go up to launch satellites are just as capable of putting a module in orbit, and the rest is just building (or refitting) a much smaller rocket to get from the orbiter to the surface and back. With people in it. It wouldn't make a jot of economic sense, but it could be done.
 
 
diz
17:42 / 09.12.03
Well, the one argument for settling Mars is that it makes it easier to get at whatever wealth is floating out in the asteroid belt. I don't know how much there is out there, but something in me really likes the idea of like a 5,000 ton of platinum floating out there in space like a lost filling.

yes, but the costs of transporting whatever is out in the asteroid belt back to Earth where it would actually be useful are so prohibitive that it's not really cost-effective at this point to do it, no? i mean, an ounce of platinum wouldn't be worth anywhere near what it costs to go out, find it, retrieve it, and bring it back to Earth.

of course, for the sake of argument, you could kill some of the cost involved by simply not going back to Earth, and instead setting up manufacturing facilities on Mars itself. of course, sending the finished goods back still wouldn't be cost-effective either in all likelihood. i can't imagine any scenario in the near future where it would be cheaper to have something manufactured on Mars out of asteroid materials than it would be to make it, in, say, China. to make any of this at all worthwhile, you'd have to have a local consumer market for the goods.

so, we'd have to be talking about setting up a basically self-sufficient colony, which mines its own resources in the asteroid belt, makes them into things on Mars, and buys most of them itself, if this whole enterprise were to be at all cost-effective, and forgive me for asking, but what would be the point?

i suppose you could say that manufacturing something in China has environmental and human rights costs which would be alleviated, but if we were that serious about enivronmental and human rights issues, we would just reduce overall consumption.

or you were optimistic you could say that offworld colonies could function as a safety valve for overpopulation, but so could a decent health care, birth control, and reproductive education campaign combined with some Third World debt relief at a fraction of the cost, and i just don't think that offworld colonization is even remotely feasible right now on the scale that would be necessary to make a dent, and i don't think it will be soon enough to make a difference.

it all strikes me as useless egotism. very expensive useless egotism at that. though, admittedly, it's not nearly as expensive as our overblown military, but most of the money from both goes to the same people anyway, all of whom are major contributors to the Bush junta.
 
 
grant
20:43 / 09.12.03
Well, with the current administration in charge, I can also easily imagine a 5,000-ton mass of platinum with a couple rocket boosters stuck on its back plunging into the Pacific at supersonic speed, leading directly to an event that future scientists, evolved from beetles, can refer to as The Bush Extinction.

"It seemed like a good idea at the time." -- Donald Rumsfeld, signing off his last entry in his video diary, recorded in the Halliburton-built asteroid-proof bunker deep in the heart of the Rockies.

But I digress.

A Mars base, even for the wild-eyed Buck Rogers cases, is still pretty far in the future.

What the president suggested was a lunar colony. I wonder if there'd be any way to use that the same way we use satellites nowadays -- like a big ol' NSA camera on the moon, or some kind of corporate TV switching relays. I have no idea if anything like that would be possible, let alone practical, but it occurs to me that the moon is really just a big fat satellite already.

Hmm. Looking up distances. OK, the moon is between 356,000 and 406,000 km away. The closest satellites, for "observation," are between 480 and 970 km. GPS satellites, for navigation, are 19,000 km up, geostationary satellites, for communication, are a little under 36,000 km up. So that means the moon is 10 times further away.

(Note: maybe the feds feel that satellites are getting too democratic nowadays and want to get a little lunar lebensraum.)

A factor of 10 -- seems unweildy for some things. Might work for TV broadcasts, though, as long as you weren't worried about lag times. Or, like, static from Sputnik and whatever other junk is up there.
 
 
w1rebaby
01:29 / 10.12.03
What this whole thing looks like to me is an attempt to get the space program up and running again, so the goal of orbital dominance can be achieved.

I mean, the administration's already stated pretty clearly that it wants orbital weaponry, or at least that it's one of the arenas it's considering. Moon landings are the "nice" branch of space exploration. What I can see is a whole lot of research into space technology, which coincidentally results in the USG's ability to put a load of Death Stars in orbit, and which might also result in a moon landing, possibly. It's also another great way of funnelling public money into aerospace companies, as if there weren't enough already.

(The same goes for the Chinese response to this - it's another way of saying "we're going to challenge you in space too").

I love space exploration. I love the idealism of the space pioneers. I love the idea of human beings on the moon. And I hate the fact that Bush is making it all dirty.

I don't think the argument that the money would be better spent on healthcare etc holds up that well, though. The vast "defence" budget is far more significant on that score.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
12:01 / 10.12.03
Yikes, don't know much about political space history do you? Let's get one thing straight right now... it has never, ever been clean. Space Rocket history basically begins through the emergence of Intercontinental Ballistic Missile (ICBM) technology in the 1950's. The American designers are people previously caught up in the Nazi's regime (Von Braun), the Russian designers are communists and they're fighting for dominance. The Space Race lasted from 1954 to 1969 (some would claim different dates) and it rested entirely on the foundation of the Arms Race. NASA was funded for a while after that but as soon as its political purpose goes out the window the funding goes down again. It's a propaganda tool, the more right wing the government the more funding NASA gets. The positive element is that the scientists are not under the control of the government and always manage to channel the money in to what they want to do. So when you say I hate the fact that Bush is making it all dirty you're talking crap because 1)it's always been dirty but 2)only the politics are dirty and not the actions of the space organisations.
 
 
diz
12:27 / 10.12.03
I don't think the argument that the money would be better spent on healthcare etc holds up that well, though. The vast "defence" budget is far more significant on that score.

i don't think that holds up, either. if you waste ten bucks on manned space exploration, that's still ten bucks you don't have, even if you waste fifty on defense. personally, i'd like to save all sixty, but if only the ten for space are up for discussion at the moment, then those are the ten i'll focus on.

besides, it's not like anyone is saying that they'll take the money for space exploration out of the bloated defense budget. if i thought that was happening, i'd support manned space exploration over the Joint Strike Fighter or whatever, but it's not like the choice is ever "space or the military." there are always a million other things that need doing that aren't being done that could use the money, and manned space exploration is really low on the totem pole of things that we need to be spending money on. the lost opportunity cost is huge here.

it's also significantly lower than the value of not adding to our massive, soon-to-be-crippling debt load. the value of simply not spending the money when we're this deep in debt exceeds the theoretical benefits.

The positive element is that the scientists are not under the control of the government and always manage to channel the money in to what they want to do.

first of all, i don't think that you're making any kind of solid case that this positive outweighs the negatives, not least of which is the value of not spending money we don't have.

second, i think you're possibly being a bit optimistic/naive here. yes, in the past scientists may have managed to subvert the intentions of the administration in question, but this administration has 1) a much tighter rein on the people underneath it 2) a long history of politicizing science and scientific appointments and 3) a lot of higher-ups, especially Rumsfeld, with well-documented plans for the militarization of space. if you think the Bush Administration is going to be hoodwinked into spending money on anything other than a full-scale militarization of space, or that the "scientists [will not be] under the control of the government," i think you're in for something of a rude awakening, sad to say.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
13:12 / 10.12.03
Well it really depends on the scientists- they can react in the usual American way or treat this in the frame that the communist scientists did. Having seen some of the NASA plans in the last ten years I hope that they'll do the latter because they showed a marked brilliance that the US government has basically stamped on. These are some of the best minds in the world and they've been kept under lock and key by lack of funding... I have faith in the fact that these are ridiculously bright people with enough ambition to work for an established space organisation and if you can push that far than you have the drive to push further.

The militarisation of space isn't workable. They can try all they want but Star Wars or whatever the hell they're trying to do this week is pointless and was discarded by an administration because of it. They don't have enough money to make the most obsolete plans happen and they won't find the money. At the end of the day sending men to the moon is a propaganda episode but I don't have anything against it because the scientists at NASA will bring some samples back that will result in interesting finds. Our technology is above and beyond the technology of '69.

Some of the best scientific research has come out of terrible fascist institutions like the Bush admin. The Nazis knew the effects of smoking before the rest of the world ffs. I'll say it again- take the good where you can find it, this kind of thing is never worthless.
 
 
w1rebaby
14:53 / 10.12.03
Actually, thank you, I do know a fair amount about the history of the various space programs and their political import and motivations. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about the scientific idealism and spirit of co-operation that it generated and that influenced more than one generation. Yes, perhaps that came out of a feel-good propaganda illusion but it ended up being real, just like the propaganda surrounding the role of the police in society has actually generated many people who care about justice.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
15:31 / 10.12.03
Sorry if I seemed patronising, I probably seem that way but actually what you're reading is major love for the space program despite it's dodginess. I'm a space fanatic.

I feel like you're picking straws though... I don't see why this won't necessarily generate the same thing. We're analysing something entirely politically here that I think could become wonderful in precisely the same way. This idea is retreading past steps but there's so much more that scientists could do now with the same source that was taken from the moon before. It's propaganda again, it's the same propaganda again, why shouldn't society gain a similar ideology once again? The atmosphere wasn't dirty before despite it's dirtiness, why would the atmosphere be dirty now? This is still simply a suggestion, I'm sure we (well, me anyway) would have frowned on the original suggestion too.
 
 
Panic
17:26 / 13.12.03
Eight days and 27 posts and no one's yet thought of the most obvious reason.

Dubya's gonna protect us from the Moon Terrorists. Or the Space Taliban. Or something.

Honestly, I hope neither we nor the Chinese get there first. It should be that nice Brazilian Space Agency. The Moon needs more samba and Carnivale...
 
 
Tryphena Absent
14:01 / 14.12.03
Have you been reading S.N. Lewitt?
 
 
invisible_al
12:52 / 18.12.03
Burt Rutan's SpaceShipOne is the first privately funded craft to breach the sound barrier.

Great news for all of us who wanted our rocket packs and jet cars delivered the morning of Jan 1st 2000. I'm kind of torn about this news as I'm a fan of Nasa but I'm beginning to doubt if it will ever produce the kind of advances like Apollo. A repeated lack of vision by various US administrations has crippled the international space station at birth (it had already had it's funding and scope cut back before the disaster).

But people like Burt Rutan make me have a small ammount of hope for cool space travel stuff happening in my lifetime. And what the hell if it is tourism, very rich people risking their lives in space to pay for space research, hell yes .
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
13:05 / 09.01.04
And we're back. Thank you for joining us. Over to you, Tryphena.
 
 
FinderWolf
20:08 / 09.01.04
Too bad this thread was already started long ago - I was dying to start it and use the headline

BUSH: ALL YOUR [MOON] BASE ARE BELONG TO U.S.

 
 
CorvusB
23:07 / 09.01.04
While I think space exploration is one of the most inherently good and noble things that we can do as a species (apart from being generally nice to one another), and nothing would make me happier than actually going to another planet before I die, it reminds me of when my parents sent me and my sister to expensive private high schools when she could barely pay bills. "We can't afford any decent clothes for you or school books or for that matter any decent food, but we couldn't possibly skimp on your catholic education." In my job, I talk all day to the poor and near-poor trying to get them decent medical care. Forgive my cycnicism, but fuck the moon and fuck Mars and fuck George W. Bush.
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
17:52 / 10.03.04

Call me irresponsible, call me obsessed, call me a boor. I got this email today, but haven't had time to read the PDF. Who wants to do my paranoid research for me, eh? Eh? Food for discussion on who really runs the space race:

We need to question the efforts of these folks who are operating behind a smoke screen. Questions LOCKHEED/NASA Avoids and Refuses to Answer:

1. Name one independent scientist not employed by or under contract by NASA who has been invited by NASA to scientifically peer review Malins' raw Mars photographic data.

2. Why if NASA is operating under the auspices of a government agency and their data belongs to the United States government is Dr. Malin allowed to claim ownership of the raw Mars photographic data?

3. Why doesn't the space shuttle say "property of the US Government"?

4. Why does President Bush dictating to NASA what they can and can not do. Name the laws which give the President power over NASA.

5. Is NASA a government agency or a private agency?

6. If NASA is a private agency under the auspices of Lockheed, then given George Bush senior is advisor to Carlyle Industries which own controlling interest in Lockeed, how can NASA avoid being in conflict of interest with the US government which is allegedly funding space missions.

7. Given the above, if NASA is now a privately independently owned government agency, is going to Mars a special interest project?

---NASA research: Drilling or oil on Mars:
http://www.jmcgowan.com/mars_reprint.PDF
 
  

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