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How can you tell when a psychonaut has gone over the edge

 
  

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EE
19:37 / 03.12.03
This thread belongs either here or in the Conversation. I threw it in here because this is the crowd I most want a response from, and I don't know how many of you cruise the Conversation.

So I used to work with a guy. Let's call him "Timothy". Tim was (and I'm sure still is) one of the sweetest, most caring people I have ever met. He always had time to listen to your problems. To him, everyone was worth helping. If you needed advice, or just someone to listen to you for a bit, Timothy was the guy to go to. His advice was always thoughtful, as if he had (gasp) really been paying attention to what you were saying and spent some time formulating a helpful repsonse. He helped me out with everything, from relationships to how to stay cool while waiting tables. He believed that many people who were not where they wanted to be in their life just needed some positive reinforcement, and that it was one of his callings in life to provide such positive reinforcement. He was one of those guys who gave off an aura of tranquility.

The thing was, you wanted to take your problems to Timothy because his advice seemed to come from a direction you hadn't thought of. And that was Tim all over. He himself seemed to come from a dimension that you hadn't discovered yet. People at work told me when I was hired that he was in a different world. Of course, this merely made me curious, and he and I became friends. We had similar tastes in books and music, and were both interested in spiritual and mental exploration. I liked him immediately because my crazy ideas weren't crazy to him. He understood where I was coming from. Sure, he was obviously in a different place than most folks, but we're all a little nuts, right? And sure, the marijuana probably didn't help, but it's never made anyone crazy, right? I mean, christ, who doesn't smoke dope in a restaraunt. To me, he was no different than the ultra-Christian who claimed to hear the voice of God and did her best to make everyone's day a little better. They were both people who heard voices and tried to help other people. Maybe they were crazy, but they were harmless.

Then one day Tim strolls into working half naked, startling some of our patrons. I was working at an Italian restaraunt, and half naked people are not normally part of the scene. Some of us ushered Tim into the back and tried to find out what the hell was going on. "Tim, buddy, where's your clothes?" I ask him. "I don't need them," he tells me, then adds: "By the way, are you the only one who can see me?"

Huh. Well, like I said, he had always been a little strange, even by my standards (more than a few of my friends have spent time in psych wards. I once built a time machine out of an old jumprope and a dead hamster. Don't talk to me about crazy...). And his roomate said he had done a fair bit of acid the night before and had burst into the roomate's room accusing him of "pissing on my goddess". The boss contacted his family, and Tim spent a few weeks in a nearby psych ward. A month or so after he got out, the boss let him come back to work. Tim still claimed to hear voices, but that was normal for him, and no matter how crazy everyone thought he was, he was still the nicest, most gentle man you could ever hope to meet. Everyone's excuse was "he's probably nuts, but he's harmless, and gave me some great advice about how to deal with my girlfriend".

Things continued without incident for a few months. Then one night I'm watching the news and I hear a report of a driver killing another driver because Satan told him to. The newspeople won't release his name until the killer's family is alerted, but I see Tim's car, all smashed up, on the scene. The reporter says the driver was a 34 year old Redford resident (which accurately describes Tim). I drive by his place and he's not there. I can't get a hold of him for the rest of the night.

As it turns out, Tim was out visiting some friends when Satan apparently told him to kill someone. He told the police later that he didn't want to kill old people or the very young, so he ran a red light and T-boned a twenty five year old son of a Fox 2 News reporter, killing him instantly. Thankfully, he never went to trial for murder, as the defense had no problem proving his insanity.

Now, this shocked everyone who knew Tim. I think a lot of us felt slightly guilty, as the signs of mental disorder were there all along. Sometimes I feel like I should've seen this coming.

So that's the thing, folks. How do you see this sort of thing coming? When normal folk talk about hearing voices, they go see a doctor and everything's great. But what about people who study magick, or are just into mental and spiritual exploration? I would bet that many who post in the magick forum hear "voices". Part of being involved in magick is dealing with the fear of insanity. When everyone is telling you that what you have choosen to believe is "crazy", you get used to that word and for a while it doens't scare you. Then you start practicing, and the doubt starts creeping in. "Holy shit, maybe I am crazy. I can't really be doing what I think I'm doing. Everyone else thinks I'm nuts, maybe they're right..." I've always thought that the only really important thing was to make sure that you still feel some empathy with the people around you, that you can still feel their pain and feel pain for them. That way you won't one day snap and hurt someone and end up locked away for the rest of your life like Tim.

But this whole deal has made me wonder about a lot of things, not least of which being my own sanity. My excuse for not being dangerously insane was that I know I don't like hurting people, and I try to avoid it wherever and whenever possible. Tim obviously still felt for other people, he seemed to share at least some common ground with most people. Why else would he always try to help them? I mean, fuck, that's why everyone let him get away with his little crazy moments. "He's harmless," we all thought. "Wouldn't dream of hurting a fly." So my question is this: how can you tell when a psychonaut has gone too far?
 
 
Frater Pontikos
22:28 / 03.12.03
A standard admonishment to the new student of magick and mind expansion always seems to take the form of "be really careful". Regardless of whether you're using psychedelics, meditation techniques or high ritual to affect changes, the warnings seem to run along similar lines. Entheogenic manuals caution practitioners to know their bodies and minds, and always try to keep a positive headspace. Shamanic paths from Native American to Tibetan Bon techniques generally include a way of calling on a particular spirit guide or friend to help one out when dealing with unknown or potentially dangerous entities. Some of those shamanic paths go so far as to suggest that once you've encountered your spirit ally and know its "face" it should always accompany you in your rituals, in case you invoke something you can't deal with or tries to lie to you. I was personally first introduced to the dangers of the Magician's path through the idea of "Chapel Perilous" from The Illuminatus Trilogy and other works by RAW. The idea being that there is a crisis point in every Magician's studies when one's traditional reality tunnels veer substantially away from the norm. Most agree that the only escape (in as much as such a thing is possible) from Chapel Perilous is a psychotic break or gnosis. Like any endeavor, there is a degree of danger to mind expansion, the student is best off acknowledging this and taking positive steps to avoid or mitigate those dangers.

Regardless of the type of mind exploration one engages in, you are messing with the essential programming of your mind, and while there tend to be safeguards built into most systems, (including your brain, which without chemicals, tends to change slowly and along established patterns) there is always the chance that one will inadvertently program in a bug.

Now with all of that out of the way, let me tell you what my personal litmus test is for psychonauts who've lost it: They present a danger to themselves and others. Now this is highly up to interpretation, and many people may feel that this should be expanded upon, but I have encountered way to many "weird" things that defy all attempts at explanation from a modern, skeptic, or experimental paradigm.

It's important here to note that I could really care less about a particular person's "sanity" as I feel that what most people consider sane are really societal reality tunnels and subject to wide revision depending on the circumstances. So, one really can't evaluate the sanity of another person, but they can make predictions about that person's behavior based on past experiences. As to the sad tale of Tim, I would say there was really nothing you could do about it. You said that his first serious episode got him admitted to psychiatric care, during which he was ostensibly observed by people whose profession is to evaluate the potential danger their patients pose to themselves and the rest of us. If they could not foresee your friend snapping, most likely noone could.

As far as warning signs go, two people I knew went off the deep end during various mind expansion attempts. One has since recovered completely. She went on a week long acid binge, which ended with a psychotic break I got to witness. It turns out she had manic depression and had never been diagnosed. Her week long acid binge was and attempt at self medication with LSD. The other friend was only dangerous to others in that she began "attacking" people psychically after she decided she was a goddess and had given birth to several universes. At the time I could care less about the goddess stuff or the universe creation, (hey, just because I couldn't verify it, doesn't mean it wasn't true) but she was ostracized by the local community since several people independently substantiated the reports of her attacking others.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
22:45 / 03.12.03
This is a joke right? It's late. Someone tell me this is a joke.
 
 
--
03:21 / 04.12.03
This is an interesting topic, as worries about my own sanity have been tantamount as of late (in fact, I recently had a thread called Chapel Perilous). Fortunetly, I've never heard voices or hallucinated, and I avoid mind-expanding drugs, so I don't think I'm crazy. I do worry about snapping one day and hurting myself or someone else though, despite the fact I've never really physically attacked someone in my life, with the exception of a fight I had with my brother years ago.

Well, okay, when I was 3 or 4 I did wonk one of my younger brothers on the head with a golf club, but hey, I didn't know any better.

Sorry to hear about your friend Tim. I don't know any magicians in real life so I'm afraid I really can't give any advice.

For myself, I try to avoid attatching too much signifigance to odd things that happen to me. For example, if I'm just waking up and I enter a sleep paralysis state where weird visions appear before me, I'll watch with interest but try to be detatched about it. In other words, try to be scientific, I guess. You know, I've never seen a ghost or a spirit or a god or aliens or angels but if I did, hopefully I'd just think afterwards "Okay, you saw (angel/devil/ghost/alien/whatever), but that was just how your nervous system interpreted it. Don't go overboard." (of course in reality I'd probably have a mental breakdown). I have an aunt and an uncle down south who claim they were once struck down by god and saw an angel telling them to repent". Tragically, they became ultra-religious to a fanatical degree after this, which proves RAWs idea that contact with a higher intelligence either turns the person into a fanatic or an agnostic. I think the latter is preferable in this case.
 
 
Quantum
11:22 / 04.12.03
Fuck. Poor Tim. My litmus test is whether or not someone can snap out of it when necessary. If you can't deal with normal folk then it's time to throttle back. I'd ask someone out for a coffee and talk to them about TV and boring stuff, if they can still operate on a mundane level then they're probably alright.
I'm reminded of what Jung said to a shamanic friend when discussing a schizophrenic, hearing voices just like the shaman. 'What's the difference?' he asked Jung. "You are swimming, she is drowning".
Think of it as being bicultural- you are at home and can operate in two (or more) cultures, both as appropriate. Same as home vs. work personas, you need magic & mundane personas to be effective and stay sane.

I empathise with the problem of someone else losing it though, when is it time to intervene? Too early and they'll be pissed off, too late and, well, it'll be too late. This is of course true of any friend with any problem as well though.
*note to self- Don't Listen to Satan*
 
 
EE
12:45 / 04.12.03
You said that his first serious episode got him admitted to psychiatric care, during which he was ostensibly observed by people whose profession is to evaluate the potential danger their patients pose to themselves and the rest of us. If they could not foresee your friend snapping, most likely noone could.

This makes me feel better, in a guilt-easing kind of way. Thanks.

I guess what has me worried the most is that my own personal test for whether or not I am dangerous has come under question regarding it's efficiency. Tim seemed to care so much for other people, and yet he still one day breaks down and hurts so many all at once.
 
 
Person
00:03 / 05.12.03
If you want to go "by the book psychologist" techincal, your beliefs are not what labels someone as having a mental disorder (insane is a legal term, not a medical term). One can firmly believe that your wall clock provides you with instructions on how to live your day, and as long as the instructions provided are not affecting your well-being adversely, you're medically fine. Of course, if you go around telling the wrong people this your social relations may suffer, but without a negative effect on your being, non-standard beliefs do not a disorder make. Call it a byproduct of Shirley Maclaine and the New Age revolution, but DSM was modified back in the 60's and 70's to reflect this.

I guess it comes down to weighing out the consequences if your beliefs at the time happen to be wrong and you're about to impose said beliefs on the rest of the universe. That's when you've got to step back and weigh things out, and remember that no matter what you believe, others may not be so accepting of your rationale.
 
 
Nietzsch E. Coyote
05:21 / 05.12.03
Not quite so...

Schizotypal personality disorder

# A pervasive pattern of social and interpersonal deficits marked by acute discomfort with, and reduced capacity for, close relationships as well as by cognitive or perceptual distortions and eccentricities of behavior, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following:

1. ideas of reference (excluding delusions of reference)
2. odd beliefs or magical thinking that influences behavior and is inconsistent with subcultural norms (e.g., superstitiousness, belief in clairvoyance, telepathy, or "sixth sense"; in children and adolescents, bizarre fantasies or preoccupations)
3. unusual perceptual experiences, including bodily illusions
4. odd thinking and speech (e.g., vague, circumstantial, metaphorical, overelaborate, or stereotyped)
5. suspiciousness or paranoid ideation
6. inappropriate or constricted affect
7. behavior or appearance that is odd, eccentric, or peculiar
8. lack of close friends or confidants other than first-degree relatives
9. excessive social anxiety that does not diminish with familiarity and tends to be associated with paranoid fears rather than negative judgments about self

# Does not occur exclusively during the course of Schizophrenia, a Mood Disorder With Psychotic Features, another Psychotic Disorder, or a Pervasive Developmental Disorder.
 
 
Leap
09:22 / 05.12.03
When someone says they want to "expand their mind" and their first port of call is hallucinogens and meditation, I tend to worry. Most peoples minds are 'retracted' because they are not paying attention to what is around them.......making meditation/hallucinogens the default is frequently escape, NOT expansion
 
 
Quantum
12:23 / 05.12.03
Any tool to affect consciousness (reading, TV, drugs, asceticism) can be used to run towards enlightenment or run away from it. A book can lead you to a new understanding of the world and an appreciation of it, or be used as a means to escape it. The same is true of psychedelics, and possibly of magical practice.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
12:29 / 05.12.03
Someone should feel guilty... possibly not you but someone should. When someone hears voices for a long period of time it means that they're ill. Forget having an askew perception of the world, this isn't three words strung together but a sustained period of communication. That can mean a few things- Nietzsch has outlined one possibility above but they could be paranoid schizophrenic or be in the middle of a paranoid breakdown. You can tell when someone isn't eccentric because they believe that they're hearing something that is not there.
 
 
Leap
12:45 / 05.12.03
A book can lead you to a new understanding of the world and an appreciation of it, or be used as a means to escape it. The same is true of psychedelics, and possibly of magical practice.

True…….

Personally, I prefer to use mind altering substances as a football, a toy for friends to share in play, rather than for “mind expansion”
 
 
Sekhmet
13:41 / 05.12.03
Don't a lot of people on this board "hear voices" on a regular basis? I thought this was a pretty common thing for magicians - communication with your spirit guides and whatnot.

There was a thread along the same lines as this one a month or two ago (I can't find it now, or I'd link it) - but it involved trying to establish the difference between magickal gnosis and schitzophrenia. Look at the list N.E.Coyote posted above. Eccentricity? Odd beliefs and magical thinking? Superstitious behavior? Hallucinations? Paranoia? Odd appearance or behavior? Social anxiety? Frankly, this partly or fully describes 95% of all magick practicioners I've ever known. Are they all insane?

I think maybe it's a control issue. Swimming vs. drowning, as Mr. Jung pointed out - if you can stay afloat, you're okay. But determining when your creative visualization ends and hallucination begins, or the difference between the helpful voice of your spirit guide and the voice of a psychotic urge to harm someone, can probably be difficult... And if it's hard for the person experiencing it, it's even more so for people who are on the outside of your head.

Poor Tim showing up to work half naked obviously constitutes a breakdown of some kind, but the fact that he was committed, assessed and then released makes me think that any error was on the part of the mental health professionals who dealt with him. If the experience of all his friends was of a person who was a bit odd but basically in control and a nice guy, I'm not sure there's much anyone could have done to predict, much less help with, the eventual psychosis he apparently fell into. The alternative would be to automatically assume everyone who is eccentric is dangerous, and I hate to imagine the world which would result from that.

Very sorry to hear of this traumatic experience, EE.
 
 
Leap
13:49 / 05.12.03
The alternative would be to automatically assume everyone who is eccentric is dangerous, and I hate to imagine the world which would result from that.


Imagine?
 
 
Frater Pontikos
14:23 / 05.12.03
I have a hard time agreeing with you, Tryphena. I consider myself highly functional and way less than dangerous, but there have been points in my life where voices spoke to me for extended periods of time. Not just intuition whispering to me, but full blown conversations with things that others could easily say were not there. These periods of time lasted months and continued into adulthood. Now granted, these voices never told me to hurt anyone (myself included) and I think I possess the mental stability to have dismissed them if they had done so. Nonetheless I did hear voices, I even told my friends and had they had me committed for merely hearing voices, I would have considered that a major violation of trust.

As far as assigning guilt to anyone, like I said before, the only people I see as culpable are the professionals that should have protected Tim, and helped him resolve his problems before releasing him back into society.

As I said above, one's beliefs do not make one insane, (imo) one's actions do. Had these voices convinced me to drive into oncoming traffic or pepper a crowd with bullets, then I probably would consider it a service if my friends had gotten me professional help. Likewise, were I unable to interact with others in static reality or do important things like pay the bills or feed myself (all of these things occur independent of one's beliefs) then sure, it might be time to get the people in the white coats to visit.

I wanted to make one more point that I forgot to make above regarding EE's original post: (the point of this topic) how does one tell the eccentric has become dangerous? I personally do not think it is possible to make predictions about a person's mental health from their beliefs. The fact that Tim heard voices would only mean that he should be particularly careful in his mental experimentation. Or if he had been adamant with the physicians he visited, they should have detained him. (how do you tell if someone's crazy, they won't give up the voices talking to them thing long enough to get out of therapy) My personal voice hearing episodes (as well as my most intense magickal work) have always occurred when I had a strong support structure in case anything went wrong. Nothing ever did, but I had people I could go to in the event I went off the deep end. I should have mentioned in my first post that any time one engages in mind expansion work, (magickal or otherwise) one tends to be best off working with others. If that is not possible, one should at least find a community to come to (like this one) where one can have a reality check and be told to lay off for a while. Maybe Tim was missing that support structure or did not know how to go to others with his problems. In my experience it is fairly common for people who are really good at giving advice to others to be really bad at getting it for themselves.

btw, symptom #2 "odd beliefs or magical thinking that influences behavior and is inconsistent with subcultural norms..." states perfectly a modern revision of the idea of insanity. Most therapists I have encountered (both in university and through sessions) refuse to make psychiatric evaluations without consideration of the culture/subculture to which the patient belongs. Many years ago I suffered from depression and the university therapist I saw (a grand total of once) actually encouraged meditation and reflection as a means to deal with the depression. She even went so far as to suggest ritual after I informed her of my religious leanings. I don't consider that therapist particularly progressive, the sparse psych education I have has also instilled in me the importance of evaluating one's culture or community when considering someone's beliefs "odd" in the schizoid sense.

Heck, according to Nietzsch's definition of "Schizotypal personality disorder," they are coming to take me away haha hoho heehee...

Blah, I just just can't seem to shut up To address what Leap said, I happen to agree, most people meditate and/or withdraw internally when embarking on some sort of mind expanding path. I certainly think it's important to meditate, but I also think it is equally important to party, run in the park, relate to friends and strangers, etc. External and internal focus is a matter of balance, extremes in either polarity will probably have detrimental effects on the psychonaut. I figure people assume that they have to go hide in a cave to learn anything about their minds, mostly because that is what media and our culture tend to teach us.

Mouse O'Doom
 
 
Salamander
18:18 / 05.12.03
I don't know what to say. Whatever happened to ol Tim seemed to happen pretty quick. But maybe this had been going on for alot longer and noone noticed until it was too late. Its hard to tell what will make someone snap. Some people, seemingly frail, often endure the worst of what life has to offer without lossing it, and sometimes the most resilient just fall apart in the face of a single tragedy. I guess thats another reason magic was reserved for the few in the olden days, and probably one of the modern dangers with pop magick. I agree with mouseofdoom. The doctors who had tim in thier care are just as culpable in this as tim. In the end I'd have to say that the mentally ill are usually horribly unbalanced psychologically, just try to make sure your life stays balanced. Get out, meet a girl or boy and have sex with them if they'll allow. Hell, magic is the only real talent I have and even I put it down for a good stretch every once and awhile. As you may have guessed, I'm rambling because I don't really know what to say. I will say that if your worried about being insane, your probably not totally around the bend...yet.
 
 
Person
18:23 / 05.12.03
Nietzsch E. Coyote

Schizotypal disorder is the fave example to come up in magickal discussion groups, but the item alone is not sufficent to qualify someone as having a mental disorder.

I think some above posters mentioned this, but the belief alone does not lead to such a diagnosis; there still needs to be exterior difficulties, as implied in other symptoms. Notice also "that influences behaviour"; i.e. it's okay to believe anything you want, as long as it doesn't lead to actions that fall outside the social norm.

The DSM also has a top-level definition of mental disorder defined as a "clinically significant behavioral or psychological syndrome or pattern that occurs in an individual and that is associated with present distress ( e.g., a painful symptom) or disability (i.e., impairment in one or more important areas of functioning) or with a significantly increased risk of suffering death, pain, disability or an important loss of freedom (p.xxi)". There's also a part about deviant behaviour or ideas in and of itself not being a problem until you get to the above definition of disorder.

People tend to go right for the disorder index, but the thing to realize is that the proper use of DSM isn't to find whether there's a problem, but to find out which disorder is behind a problem. A macabre analogy is the top-level definition is taking the pulse, and the disorder list is the autopsy; once you're at that stage, you're pretty sure there's something wrong.
 
 
Z. deScathach
15:44 / 06.12.03
To me, the danger point is stated by the term, "command hallucinations". This is a psychiatric term for voices that tell you to do things in the form of a "command". The real question is whether a person is in control of that experience. A couple of weeks ago I was talking to a psychiatrist friend about this very issue, knowing that he was a person who was open to spiritual experience. He brought up the danger to oneself and others point, as well as are the visions causing significant distress. I hear voices from time to time. I cognate them as outside entities. They know that I am in charge. I have the final say on whether I follow any advice said to me. I've never had an entity tell me to hurt someone, and if I did I would banish it. There is one thing that impresses me with the situation of individuals that kill on command, and that is that they are "driven" to do the killing. There is more than a suggestion going on here. There is a powerful command that is usurping will. When the visions are running the show, that is a dangerous situation, because the person has lost their capacity to choose. Therefor, I would say that the situation has become dangerous when the person has lost the capacity to choose their actions, and when they are unable to shut down their visions. This is why there is such an emphasis on grounding in magickal practice.
 
 
Papess
18:12 / 06.12.03
I do get visions. Fantastic ones. I don't usually hear voices. Although, during a vision, I hear a buzzing or humming sometimes backed up with undertones of angels singing and trumpet blowing....quite loud in a deafening quiet sort of way. Am I dangerous? No. Only as far as my stupidity goes, I guess. I am difficult and moody, though. Am I affected by my visons? Yes. Am I crazy or just choosing to extend my reality and except that new reality as just as real as our "shared reality"?

Also, what if the extending of one's reality did not come a choice and was an imposed shift?...Does that tip the scale, even for a magician sometimes, between sanity and psycho?

Question: Why are visions often associated with spiritual experiences and personal revelations, and hearing them is considered crazy?
 
 
Person
04:07 / 08.12.03
"Command Hallucinations" would be a pretty disturbing sign. I know in psyc another line is the line of "it's like there was someone there" versus "there was someone there"; the first indicates the person still has some notion that said occourences may not be real to others.

And oddly enough this isn't the only Satan-killing-someone-in-a-car-wreck case right now different motivation, same result. Guy was trying to run from the devil. Though this guy had a much longer history of mental illness, and no indication of what his specific beliefs were.
 
 
macrophage
12:17 / 08.12.03
I'd say the gloop mass of shrinks and all that use their DSM 'bible' as an apparatus for societal control. I know that is a bit of a generalisation, oops. People could benefit more from a holistic treatment rather than say the usual method. But if someone gets truly dangerous then what? Fuck it any one of us could be labelled whatever by anybody by the Nanny Police State. When people get messy we should try and help them out (if we can) - if you can get to them quick enough. I don't know if I'm making sense?!
 
 
Unconditional Love
13:42 / 08.12.03
hi,

according to my psychiatrist, ive heard voices since i was a child, ive been practicing magick since i was 17 i am now 32.

ive taken anti psychotics and various other mood enhancers anti depressants etc. also a wide range of illicit drugs. neither set of drugs really helps me. just allay or over stimulate the effects.

psychiatry in my experience is about conformity and the maintanence of a large ever growing industry. in my personal opinion dangerous individuals should be judged by there actions not by there mental state wether they be normal, if such a thing exsists or in psychosis again if such a thing exsists, labels such as sane and insane just cause problems.

because i refuse to conform, it really is that simple, i refuse to give up the ability to choose and pick at reality like a child rather than settle for the adult version,
lets all get along nicely now and forget its play, buy into our reality, you cant have your own.

psychiatrists, psychiatry, and thousands of years of bodies of human knowledge have no authority, not really unless you choose to hand yourself over too them.

there are no experts he says like an expert on experts.

madness, insanity really are just fear games to play with the magical community and the wider community at large. it plays with the herd instinct to belong, because its very hard to be a real outsider, not just in a buy the right naughty boy kind of sub culture way, but in the way that you are not normal you just wont or dont fit or cant. to be really outside. but then it gives a whole bunch of powerless people who want to have power, do gooder types a bunch of games to play, really they want to help people, sure, but they need helpless people to help, right?

i mean what was the world like before we had psychiatrick experts to tell us what was normal or not, it must of been insane, so insane.

command hallucinations? intresting topic, there are voices that would have me killing people, torturing them etc etc, mainly when i am angry.
id be dangerous if i were to ever give in to such urges as an adult, but i choose not too, but i wouldnt want said voices taken from me as far as i can see this is an effective form of communication with my instincts wether i characterise them as demons or protective angels or what not.

i have found various magickal, spiritual, religous paths to be a great help more so than any psychiatric institutions, i see alot of the older paths as early maps of the spiritual experience, i believe alot of modern authorities are completely anti spiritual infact actively so i believe that materialist based philosophical institutions have it in there intrests to be anti spiritual to reinforce there own view points and destroy paradigms that may be countering this view.if a way to do this were to turn spiritual experiences into a form of illness........
reality is an ambiguity for me today.

for anybody else whos consciousness is littered with half formed personas and beings left over from abortive rituals ive found shaolin kung fu and tai chi to work really well
please take it upon yourself to make up your own mind and dont believe alot of scientific materialist bullshit, take dr learys advice, become a patient understand it first hand.
 
 
Quantum
13:56 / 08.12.03
wolfangel, thanks for your input- what would be your attitude toward your friends and family, or colleagues or magical associates, getting involved? I mean, if a fellow willworker said to you 'Whoa, you're slipping into the deep end dude' would you take it seriously and double check your consensual reality interface, or do you think you could reach a stage where your 'illness' would prevent that?

My problem is balancing the responsibility to intervene with the right to privacy & freedom of the person concerned. I personally would rather my friends etc. told me early if they were worried, rather than later, because I trust them- but if were suffering from paranoia I might feel differently...
 
 
Unconditional Love
15:29 / 08.12.03
hmmm,

the deep end is when your out of control, personally i dont see it that way, others may because there ideas of whats normal or acceptable differ from my own, i dont think there is a consensual reality. more a bunch of realities fighting for dominance within me as an individual and society at large. the question for me is wether i become involved in that fight, become that fight, or learn about peace.

i have chosen the latter which is why i learn kung fu and tai chi. excuse the briefness of this reply as i am off to kung fu now.

mark.
 
 
Z. deScathach
13:49 / 09.12.03
wolfangel: psychiatry in my experience is about conformity and the maintanence of a large ever growing industry. in my personal opinion dangerous individuals should be judged by there actions not by there mental state wether they be normal, if such a thing exsists or in psychosis again if such a thing exsists, labels such as sane and insane just cause problems.

I agree. Psychiatry is without a doubt, IMO, a method of social control. One thing that shows this to be true is the mass drugging of children for the amorphous disorder ADD. A cursory examination of this shows it to be a method of imposing control and stifling rebelliousness. I often question the types of skils that persons could learn if we looked at the hearing of voices, and the seeing of visions as Shaman Sickness, as it used to be viewed in tribal societies. It was seen as a need for training, rather a need for supression. The bottomline is that if I told people about my visions, and the "spirits" that I commune with, I would be labeled as insane fairly quickly. In terms of a magick practitioner that's going "dangerous", a term that I much prefer, the persons to make that judgement, IMO should not be persons who believe that any type of spiritual vision is a sign of pathology, the opinions that would matter to me would be those of my magickal peers. I once had a psychiatrist SCREAM in my face, (I'm not exaggerating here), because I had suggested to one of her clients ,that she communicate with the angels that she was seeing instead of trying to get rid of them. After the shrink's tirade, which I honestly thought was going to cause cardiac arrest, I told her, "You know what, your f***ing crazy..." At which point I quickly bailed out of the building before security was called. This is why I tell NO ONE about what is going on with me magickally, unless they are another magickal person. The bottomline is that society is threatened by us. It's not threatened by teen witch spell kits. It's not threatened by "alternative religion". When you get into the areas of shamanic trance, visions, hearing voices, people get seriously spooked, because behind it all, there's a possibility to them that there may be real power there. Every one of us probably has seen someone meltdown in their magickal practice. The person is in trouble. They are melting down. They are disintegrating. It's not just a matter of ego fear, it's a matter of stark terror. Sometimes people reconnect after such trips, but frequently they don't. They come out damaged. The real criteria is.... is it destroying the person, (not the ego, but the person), and is that person going to destroy others.
 
 
LykeX
14:58 / 09.12.03
I'm sorry if I'm going off topic and disrupting anything, but I kinda felt the door had opened with all this "the nature of psychiatry" talk.
Wolfangel wrote: "...become a patient understand it first hand." That reminded me of an idea I've had, and I'd love some input.

Quite simply, it's about inducing insanity. Do you think it's possible to, temporarily, give yourself some sort of mental disorder? How?
I figured you could use tis in two ways.
1)To gain personla insight in how it is to be "insane".
2)If you can give yourself the disorder and then remove it, maybe you could use the same method to cure people.

Thoughts?
 
 
Quantum
15:26 / 09.12.03
Psychiatry is without a doubt, IMO, a method of social control
Maybe, maybe not, but most Psychiatrists are nice enough people trying to help. IMO. The same as doctors, people's relationship to psychiatrists is weird, it's like they're expected to be superhuman and never make mistakes, and always know the answer and have a cure. Guess what? Most of them are healers doing their best.

LykeX, I think it would be better to put yourself in the mindset of someone with a disorder rather than invite the disorder upon yourself. For example you could get into a paranoid head by reading a load of Kafka and conspiracy theories, and questioning everything you come across, or get manic by drinking a load of coffee and listening to agitating music etc.
And of course there's always drugs...
 
 
cusm
19:06 / 09.12.03
I had one loose control on me once. He was knowingly scitzophrenic, fucking brilliant, and used a variety of drugs for his own psychonauting adventures. He always did well by it too, but one day something got past him. Of all the things he'd done, he'd never smoked pot. So in learning the weed, he started to slip into the danger zone.

The first signs were a manifestation of divine absolutes, common in scitzophrenia. That is, god/devil complexes. He'd started ranting about how Peter Gabriel was really the Arch Angel Gabriel, his 7 albums the 7 trumpets Gabriel blows in Revelations. Good theory, that, with some cool evidence if you're familiar with PG's works. Doubtless, he intended some of that on purpose, which anyone who's heard Supper's Ready can see.

But the problem wasn't this, it was the conclusion that my friend, who'se name was Michael, was actually the Arch Angel Michael himself, manifesting as a part of his own internal constant battle with Satan. I had an extended conversation with Michael one evening after some weed, which was an amazing experience to say the least. I'm certain to some extent Michael was speaking through him, as that's how it works in magick when you're inspired like that, and I got a lot out of the conversation. But he wasn't able to let go of it. I tried to talk him down from it for hours, but to no avail. That may have been a lunimous experience, but it was also a part of a larger obsession that nearly destroyed him.

See, the way I figure it, once you start on the god/devil thing, it only gets worse. His voices started telling him what to do, and this led to what would have been a fatal dose of (I forget the exact name, but its similar to GHB, only stronger), had it not been for the 5 hits or LSD he took to counteract it. Results were about a week of hallucinations, involving creation and destruction of universes, god/devil conflicts/complexes, and textbook psychotic delusions. He's sure at one point that he was actually dead for a bit, but managed to come back. He might be right, considering what he was on.

Anyway, intervention and some time in the psyche ward grounded him again, and he's back in control again. He wasn't ready for that level of experience (who is?), and sadly hasn't really learned what he could have from it. He basicly broke from it.

The things I learned though was to look for the warning signs of the god/devil complex. This is something I've seen not only in him, but in myself as well. I've a bit of scitziophrenia myself, I'm sure, as my dad had it too. I've struggled for years with a similar complex, but got on top of it all early before it became a problem through a variety of techniques. But from it, I can see how obsession on ultimate dualities and powers such as god/devil which are by definiton out of your control can pull one out of control to where the voices become commands. There's a sort of internal justification at work. The Devil made me do it. Or, it was a command from God. I had to obey.

That's the danger line. That's what to look out for. Identification with powers, belief that you are them manifest (what I like to call "uncontrolled invocation"), or manifestation of the voices of said powers within you telling you what to do. Or for that matter, anything to do with "God and the Devil". Its loosing control, loosing youself to the voices or the delusion. Magick without circles or safety nets. It comes quick, and it comes quiet, as the person isn't likely to share their state with you until its too late.

Michael's situation was one I feel could have been avoided had he enough of a grounding in magickal technique to understand what he was going through and put it in to a context he could control it in. In this way, magick as psychology is a cure for spiritual ailment. I've similarly seen others who were at about the breaking point pull themselves out of it through dedication to Voodoo, tansforming the voices in your head into trustworthy helping spirits that take care of you, turning sickness into power. Just as others turn to trusting Jesus for the same thing. Its nice to see religion have an actual use that way.
 
 
soulkry
20:38 / 09.12.03
You forgot one thing in your re-telling Cusm. He believed that David Bowie was the devil. (perhaps rightly, oh how we love you Mr. Bowie)
 
 
cusm
20:42 / 09.12.03
Thanks, I'd forgotten about that bit. Granted, that revelation came from listening to Outside in his already-broken state, so its understandable...
 
 
My Mom Thinks I'm Cool
06:10 / 10.12.03
to me the key is whether or not you feel obligated to do what the voices say. once I woke up at about 4 AM to a voice saying "KILL!". I think I actually laughed. Kill? Kill who? Why? Honestly, you're going to have to do better than that. It's like the Return of the Jedi where the emperor is trying to convert Luke to the dark side...

"give in to the dark side!"
"no!"
"damn it! I thought that would work! Kill him vader!"

I went back to sleep.
 
 
Ganesh
11:26 / 10.12.03
Maybe, maybe not, but most Psychiatrists are nice enough people trying to help. IMO. The same as doctors, people's relationship to psychiatrists is weird, it's like they're expected to be superhuman and never make mistakes, and always know the answer and have a cure. Guess what? Most of them are healers doing their best.

Thanks, Quantum. It's been my own experience that psychiatrists operate under pressure from all sides to 'sort the problem', whether or not 'the problem' is likely to prove amenable to our frankly limited armoury of psychological/pharmalogical tools. As well as being routinely expected to somehow 'treat' the results of poverty, social deprivation, damaged parenting, abrasive personality and plain ol' shitty life experience, we're increasingly called upon to accurately predict the future and take the rap when we, inevitably, fail. It's now a commonly-voiced belief that shit doesn't just happen; it's allowed to happen - and somebody, somewhere ought to feel "guilty" (perhaps facing public vilification, perhaps losing his livelihood) as a result. Usually a 'blundering' professional. Usually us.

Social control? Well, yes, the most overt UK manifestation of this is the Governmental pressure - resisted by the Royal College of Psychiatrists - to accept a new, politically-created label of 'dangerous and severe personality disorder' for those individuals who commit violent crimes. Psychiatrists, runs the logic, would then be expected to take responsibility for these individuals' actions, and decide how best to 'treat' them (clue: there is no 'treatment'). Doesn't sound fair to anyone.

In the other corner, many are less and less willing to accept that some degree of situational unhappiness is a feature of the human condition. It isn't necessarily 'illness' and psychiatrists can't necessarily provide an answer - but the expectation doesn't go away, it merely grows. Are you on antidepressants? Why?

It's nice, therefore, when some people recognise that psychiatrists are not necessarily a tool of eeevil social control, exerting malign influence over an unwilling, vulnerable populace which just wants to be left alone. That's a frequent Barbelith characterisation, and I think it's important, sometimes, to provide an alternative view.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
12:30 / 10.12.03
Wolfangel your opinion is lovely and everything but having a man four times the size of me trying to manipulate me and blocking my entrance in to the living room because the voices in his head told him to when I was eight years old has proven to be one of the worst experiences of my life despite the lack of physical violence. You can refuse the suppression of your schizophrenia through medication all you want but recognise the fact that you might cause an eight year old to scream hysterically for three hours as soon as she gets home for no discernable reason.

I knew two paranoid schizophrenics as a child. I have never been more scared of two people in my life and I didn't know that they were schizophrenics or what the word meant at the time. Neither were violent, I knew instinctively that they were alike despite knowing them separately. I don't judge people on their actions, I judge on my instincts and I'm telling you, I needed those men to be on medication. This isn't about society, it's about protection for people who know something is wrong but do not how to handle it.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
12:53 / 10.12.03
Sorry that sounded way harsher than I meant it to be.
 
 
Ganesh
13:02 / 10.12.03
There is certainly an association between schizophrenia and violence but it does not follow that a) all schizophrenic people are dangerous, or b) all schizophrenic individuals should be on antipsychotic medication. Also, judging people by "instincts" rather than past actions can, if one is not careful, be the thin end of a rather Leaptopian wedge...
 
  

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