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Reinventing The Spectacle

 
 
Matthew Fluxington
18:06 / 28.11.03
Our Lady Of The Two Towers: OK, this thread is only going in the Conversation because it doesn't fit in any of the Spectacle forums. If anyone's got a better idea where to shift it, go ahead, otherwise, please don't rot me, okay?

I know that I've felt this frustation several times in the past - a thread idea which could potentially lead to some really interesting discussion, but does not fit into any of the forums which we currently have set up in the Spectacle because it is so broad and covers a range of disciplines. It would probably be in our best interests to have more discussions like these, because it would force us to open up conversations and look at art and creativity in a larger context, which can lead to some very interesting things.

I have two proposals to remedy this situation:

#1 Collapsing the Spectacle. This is the more radical approach. It may be more than a little overwhelming for us to take all of the topics from the five Spectacle forums and drop them into one, but it opens us up to more interdisciplinary conversations, and mixing things up may be good for the Art/Design and Book forums, because people will be forced to look at those threads among the others. Of course, it could be bad too - those threads may sink like a stone among the comics, music, and tv thread and have less visability.

#2 We create a generalized Spectacle forum to coexist with the forums that we already have. This is probably a lot more sensible. It could be the forum where we talk about the arts in the big picture, as well as a place for discussion of criticism, the economics of art, and Pop Culture in general terms. It could be the Spectacle equivalent of The Head Shop, in some ways.

So, what do you think? Any ideas?
 
 
Tom Coates
18:14 / 28.11.03
I'm far from anti this idea, except that if there's one thing we're not lacking, it's forums in the Spectacle. If you had to name and describe the forum in the style of the ones on the front, what would you call it and what things do you think would go into it?
 
 
I'm Rick Jones, bitch
20:42 / 28.11.03
I'm for the forums to stay as they are. However I feel we need one to discuss Video Games. That massive thread in conversation ain't good enough.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
20:53 / 28.11.03
Tom - I'll get back to you with a proper answer to your question. I'll give it some thought. Anyone else can feel free to give it a shot, though.

Radiator - where do you suggest that we have cross-disciplinary discussions? Given our current set up, there is no natural home for that sort of thing, and that ends up discouraging a wide range of conversations that we could be having. I agree that collapsing the Spectacle into one forum is too extreme and potentially messy, but do you think that we shouldn't consider a different approach to how our Spectacle forums are structured?

I think that it may be a good idea to find a way to make it so that discussion of gaming can fit in with the sort of "sixth forum" that I have in mind. Like I said, I'll give it some thought and come back to this. Anyone else who has ideas, please feel free to chime in. Barbelith is ideally a group effort.
 
 
I'm Rick Jones, bitch
20:56 / 28.11.03
I see no need to add a new forum (well, not this one, I'd still love a video game forum to fill that empty column space). If a thread crosses disciplines or whatever, let it lie where it falls. No need to worry about it too much.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
22:09 / 28.11.03
No, you're missing the problem, Radiator - there are a lot of great threads which never even start because there is no place to put them. It's not about the threads that do exist, it's about the threads that could be, and should be. We've been treating the Spectacle like a fluff area for so long that I think that some of us don't even expect longform, thoughtful discussions about anything unless it is specific to a particular comic/record/movie/tv show, and that's a real missed opportunity, I think. I think that we should extend the ambition of the Revolution to the Spectacle.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:58 / 29.11.03
I see your point, Matthew. There is the possibility that there is just no will to have long, freeform discussions about pop culture at present. However, it might not hurt to find out. I'd think, personally, that in many ways the Head Shop would be the logical place for such discussions - say, a topic called "The portrayal of x in pop culture generally - that sounds to me like a Head Shop thread, just as a fluff thread on computer games goes in the Conversation and this thread was started in the Head Shop. Maybe we just need to broaden the remit of the Head Shop. Alternatively, yeah, we could have a "cross-media" thread, where themes popping up in a variety of media can be looked at...
 
 
Char Aina
15:50 / 29.11.03
i quite like the spectacle as it is, but i do see that there seems to be a lack of interest.
perhaps there should be a drive to create a discussion a day, or some such contrived nonsense to get people excited again.

or perhaps we should invite specific people to become members, people who have a definite and fiery passion for areas lacking in output. we already have several comic book fanatics, and even folks working in the medium, but do we have any TeeVee stars online? or any fashion designers of international renown?

many of us are writers, but are any of us published and working at a similar level to that which mr stewart is?


just thoughts, not thought out.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
15:54 / 29.11.03
To be honest, I'm not convinced that a new forum along these lines would get used enough to warrant its existence - like Haus points out, the Head Shop has fulfilled much the same purpose in the past and I don't see why it can't still do so.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
16:08 / 29.11.03
The other option that I can see is we create a second version of the Head Shop specifically for arts discussion, and we do so within the Revolution space - looking purely at the forum description, the current Head Shop doesn't appear particularly welcoming to discussion of art theory.

Added benefit of giving the forum groups (Revolution and Spectacle) a more equal weighting, too.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
20:18 / 29.11.03

The other option that I can see is we create a second version of the Head Shop specifically for arts discussion, and we do so within the Revolution space - looking purely at the forum description, the current Head Shop doesn't appear particularly welcoming to discussion of art theory.


This sounds like a good idea to me. I agree that the Head Shop isn't quite the best fit - it may be a fine place to put something like the hypothetical "portrayal of x in pop" would be fine, but the thread that Flowers started about plot holes in fiction the other day wouldn't really work there.

I think the thing is, we don't necessarily need a place intended just for the sprawling heady theory-heavy discussion of arts, but a general place to put arts discussions which don't fit any of our current categories. Maybe we just need a General Spectacle thing, or an Etc forum in the Spectacle area - that way we have a place for cross-disciplinary/general arts discussion, but also a home for threads about gaming, video games, and anything else that's a bit of an oddball.
 
 
Olulabelle
21:22 / 29.11.03
I think Matthew is right, and I am glad this subject has been brought up. I'd really like a General Spectacle area because often I find I have things to say which I wouldn't feel comfortable posting in, for example, Music, because it isn't quite specific enough for that forum. Music could quite possibly come into the discussion I am posing, but maybe this gets overlooked because the forum I have decided to start the thread in is Art. I quite often feel that if threads are not specific enough, people run the risk of being told they are going off topic, or that a thread belongs in another forum, which can be a shame.

Personally, I'm of the opinion that art is a very general term which can encompass music, so when I initiate a conversation in Art about (for example) the role of the artist, I would expect comments from musicians to be made, but this doesn't generally tend to happen because the Spectacle is divided up into such specifics.

So if a new General Spectacle area were to be started it would give people a place for broader artistic debate; something that I think could only help Barbelith.

Oh, and IMHO, The Headshop isn't really the place for broader artistic debate; lots of people who post extremely interesting things in other places seem to feel a bit overawed by The Headshop. A General Spectacle area would be a lot less daunting, and wouldn't have the pre-existing supposed difficult reputation that The Headshop does.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
21:50 / 29.11.03
If we eventually decide that there is a real need for this forum, we need to ensure that its remit and place on the board doesn't yank us completely off-balance. It's an issue that's come up before - the creation of the Art & Design forum, the debate over a Gaming forum - and it's one that we have to be aware of. As it is, I often feel that the weighing around here is wrong - Revolution and Spectacle need to be seen to be of equal importance, at least. That's why I'd like to see it placed in Revolution - it doesn't just even things out, it encourages people to engage in critical thought about music, film, design, whatever. I'm not even talking about heavily theoretical discussion, just less fluffy than the threads that, more often than not, pop up in Spectacle fora.

Take olulabelle's imagined thread, The role of the artist. It's a meaty enough topic that it wouldn't be out of place in the Head Shop, but it's not so immediately overpowering that people who don't do the Head Shop would feel intimidated by it. There's room in it for both the theory-led stuff and slightly easier-to-grasp content, and the topic itself allows for 'revolutionary' thought.

There's another issue here. As it stands, the Spectacle seems to have been very quiet recently. If a General Spectacle forum is introduced, it brings with it the possibility that the specific Spectacle fora become even quieter.

Make a new forum. Stick it in Revolution. Either call it 'Art' or give it a title that includes the word. Change the title of the 'Art & Design' forum to either 'Fashion & Design', or simply 'Design' (because art *is* a catch-all term, and - and personally I've never liked its limited usage in the context of that forum).
 
 
Tom Coates
09:36 / 30.11.03
I'm not totally comfortable with that plan, if only because naming schemes have to be based on commonly understood terminology rather than being a site debate. Art is commonly understood to refer to a particular industry / group of scupture, painting, performance, video art etc. and to use it in a different sense would probably directly result in people posting things in the wrong place. Unclear descriptions of forums inevitably end up like that. This is why in the past we so routinely have debates about what the Head Shop is for - because it's function isn't quite clearly enough articulated.
 
 
Jack Fear
15:53 / 30.11.03
"Arts & Media," perhaps?
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
17:29 / 30.11.03
Maybe we can just revamp/repurpose the Art/Design forum. That may be the easiest way to do this. I like Jack Fear's title - Arts & Media. That works for me.
 
 
Tom Coates
22:13 / 30.11.03
Except that doesn't really leave anywhere to do discussions of visual arts, sculpture, performace art or design/architecture stuff.
 
 
Linus Dunce
23:16 / 30.11.03
I wouldn't like to see the AF&D forum change much either. True, there's not a lot of activity going on there, but many of the threads are slow-burners and of great interest to a few posters. They'd disappear below the fold forever if they were forced to share space. It'd be like trying to find a jar of pickled capers in Asda.

I think there's definitely a case for a games forum in the Spectacle though.
 
 
I'm Rick Jones, bitch
06:57 / 01.12.03
Call the new forum "mutlimedia", make it clear in the abstract it's for misc/cross-discussion, peice of piss.
 
 
Tom Coates
09:07 / 01.12.03
Except - again - Multimedia more commonly means something else, and in the context of the Spectacle forum and next to the category-based ones it would mean that other thing way more than what you'd like it to mean. Sorry - I can't see it working.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
09:08 / 01.12.03
I'm 100% against changing the Art, Fashion & Design forum, other than the possible amendment of the title to specify Visual Art - but even that's a problem, as it may appear to exclude conceptual/installation art.

I quite like the idea of putting the proposed new forum in the Revolution - it's always been my belief that Barbelith needs to work consciously towards thinking harder, if only to counteract an inevitable natural tendency towards intellectual entropy. As far as title go, how about something containing the word 'culture'? I'm thinking something like 'Cultural Criticism' but with slightly less academic connotations...
 
 
Tryphena Absent
10:09 / 01.12.03
Erk! Cultural Criticism- just don't go there!!
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
11:04 / 01.12.03
Well, I don't think we should get rid of what we've already got going on in Art/Design/Fashion - I'm only suggesting that we expand that forum's topic range so that it can include everything which is already there as well as give room to the other things which we are thinking of.

I'm not against the idea of starting a new Revolution forum, though. That's not a bad idea at all.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
11:42 / 01.12.03
See, another reason why I think that might be a good idea is that I'd love a place where I could start a thread about, say, media coverage of black music, and get a response which combined the type of posts to be found in the Head Shop and those found in Music... You know, where the thread could then deviate into talking about various historical representations of race and culture in the media, without being seen as off-topic, and then weave its way into being more specifically about a specific album. (Of course you could argue that this ought to just happen in Music anyway...)
 
 
Spatula Clarke
12:21 / 01.12.03
So is the problem now just one of naming?
 
 
.
13:42 / 01.12.03
My 2p: Personally I don't think it would harm the Art, Fashion and Design forum to be an "Art, Fashion, Design and Cross-media [or some such word]" forum. It seems logical enough that discussions of media in abstract terms fits nicely alongside art, design and fashion theory.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
14:05 / 01.12.03
Could you unpack that a little? I can't quite see why those disciplines are more obviously related to general discussion of media and culture rather than Music, TV or Film. In fact it strikes me that to think that is to hold a quite specific position on the nature of Art, Fashion & Design, a position which the moderators of that Forum might want to dispute. Certainly, if I were a moderator or regular poster in a relatively recently founded forum, which had perhaps struggled to find its feet at first but had now established a distinct role on Barbelith, and it was suggested that the remit of this forum should be expanded in such a way as to potentially subsume that role, I would oppose it in the strongest terms. And in fact, I'm happy to do so by proxy.
 
 
.
20:28 / 01.12.03
Well, to unpack the reasoning a little:

Art, fashion and design don't really fit together very well anyway, but if they do have something in common over, say, TV and film, or comics, it is that there is a long tradition of academic discourse in these fields. In other words, there is a framework and language tools available that offer the chance to engage in abstract discourse, potentially about a wider range of topics, in a way that TV criticism (for example) couldn't be so universally applied across different media. And it's not like there is no precedent for the widening of general art-fashion-design theory to engage with other media - I'm thinking Marshall McLuhan for instance.

Furthermore, it strikes me that art, fashion and design certainly are not an insular set of disciplines. Presumably the art, fashion and design forum is the most appropriate place for discussions on photography, architecture, "art pranks" and other situationalist actions, graphics, sculpture, video installations, fluxus pieces and mail-art, found art artifacts, sound installations and odd recordings, etc. In other words, lots of stuff that engages with different media anyway. What I'm saying, is that I think the context is broad enough to tackle general media discussions, without diluting the essence of the forum. In fact, the forum blurb currently already mentions "art and culture".

If nothing else, I'd suggest that the art, fashion and design forum could play up the breadth of topics that it could cover.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
21:13 / 01.12.03
Art, fashion and design don't really fit together very well anyway

Perhaps you would like to start a thread debating that point within the forum? I think you're completely and utterly wrong... first you have to ask what is art if not fashion and design? Then simply if not those things than what is art?

The vast majority of posters on this board do not take the time to discover how they could use that forum and thus conversations like this spring up.

I want to know precisely what you're suggesting should go in to that forum. Everything you mention revolves around the notion that art uses many different forms of media yet they are all visual things. Rather more importantly the Art, Fashion and Design forum is not about visual art, it's about aesthetics, how aesthetic forms work, how they interact with one another and how you can make something aesthetically pleasing. Its longer threads generally concern themselves with taking aesthetic forms apart- controversial adverts, exhibitions, clothes. To change that would be to change the nature of the forum entirely.

Think carefully about what you're writing here and consider the space that you have rarely used effectively, it's role here and your want to get rid of it.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
21:35 / 01.12.03
What I'm saying, is that I think the context is broad enough to tackle general media discussions, without diluting the essence of the forum. In fact, the forum blurb currently already mentions "art and culture".

Yeah, but I think that's the current problem there - the context isn't properly defined. We already know that it isn't intended to be a catch-all forum, but the wording is off and could make it appear to be just that. Check out the "Are video games art?" thread(s?) that it houses - the argument there is that the medium should/n't be appreciated on the same critical level as other forms of pop culture, not that Dancing Stage Megamix is the same thing as Ceci n'est pas une pipe. It's that art word again. We need to differentiate between its use as a defining term for a specific type of imaginative creation and its use in the broader sense for *all* types of imaginitive creation. Then we take the second definition and plonk it in the proposed new forum's title.

Am I completely off-base with this?
 
 
Tom Coates
23:00 / 01.12.03
Generally my concern is that a greater degree of work should be done generally around analysing the specifics and clarity of what any potential new forum would do and how it would fit into the structure of the site as a whole. The naming issue is pertinent because it points to other problems - related problems - in the way the potential forum is handled.

In general, the Spectacle has operated as a repository for genre-based descriptions of things. The Art, Fashion and Design forum is based around mostly non-narrative visual aesthetics, but of course it's a vaguely artificial grouping and a vaguely artificial distinction that - to an extent - bleeds into all the others, just as Music bleeds into Film, TV & Theatre on the basis of music shows/live shows/documentaries and just as Comic Books bleed into Books or Film, TV & Theatre.

The nature of a well constructed site that is easy to navigate and understand is that unnecessary complexity is kept to a minimum. Given that the Spectacle groups things in such a genre-based way, it's going to make the most sense for any other forum within it to be of the same quality/type. That way, each forum's description and remit enforces all the other forums' descriptions and remit by contextualising it within a comprehensible group (good practice: John, Paul, George, Ringo / bad practice John, Paul, Ringo, Henry - the latter grouping doesn't lose 1/4 of its meaning, it loses much more). If we're going to break that rule we have to do so stridently and obviously - either visually making it distinct from that which surrounds it, or heavily flagging that it is not of the same type as the other fora within that group. So flagging it as "General" or "Theory" or something and pulling it out of alphabetical order (and maybe formatting it in a slightly distinct pattern) would be the most appropriate way of handling it within the Spectacle clump. It still worries me a little.

On the other hand there is a case for having a comparable forum within the Revolution, although bear in mind that this means a sizeable dislocation from the rest of the fora that carry information about art, theatre etc. That worries me a little too, to be honest. Probably moreso.

So in a nutshell the issues so far:

1) The forum must be grouped appropriately to fit into the larger structure of the site without undermining any of the informational support that the structure of the site affords;
2) The forum must be kept in some way visually or textually distinct from fora that it does not resemble in type or quality;
3) The function of the forum must be clearly communicable or well grouped so as to distinguish it from the other fora that it might find itself in competition with;
4) The name of the forum should be sufficiently distinct from other fora and convey its remit clearly and without creating additional confusion;
5) There should be evidence of demand for said forum and it should include or afford the possibility of conversations that couldn't be had elsewhere.

At the moment, I'm unconvinced by the plans proposed, all of which have significant positive aspects but also significant problems - while on the other hand I am completely clear that there does seem to be a need for further investigation around this stuff. The concern about no place for certain kinds of threads is totally reasonable.
 
 
.
09:20 / 02.12.03
I think you're completely and utterly wrong... first you have to ask what is art if not fashion and design?

And I think you too are utterly and completely wrong. Art as a discipline *is* different from design and fashion.

Everything you mention revolves around the notion that art uses many different forms of media yet they are all visual things.

Nope, I certainly didn't say that.

[large rambling section about art edited out here]

Think carefully about what you're writing here and consider the space that you have rarely used effectively, it's role here and your want to get rid of it.

Well, you have inspired me to make better use of the Art, Design and Fashion forum. I definitely don't want to get rid of it, I'd just like to see the scope opened up to more than just "does my bum look big in this?" OK, enough bitching (I've edited loads out of this post already), I'll post the sort of topic I'd like to see more of in the AD&F forum as soon as I have a break at work.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
09:27 / 02.12.03
And I think you too are utterly and completely wrong. Art as a discipline *is* different from design and fashion.

But that doesn't negate the idea of fashion as artform, of a building design being a work of art. Architecture is taught in Art History 'A' level courses- why if design is not related to art that closely. I think you're viewing the word in a limited sense. Anyway I'm rotting like a beast and should shut up so I'll stop now.
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
16:47 / 02.12.03
Over at the Reviews blog, Randy and I had the problem of a music (as in album) forum, a music (as in live) forum, and nowhere for art stuff to go. So we turned the live music blog into 'Outside', which covers any kind of theatrical performance (including comedy) and art. Might a solution be to think of merging the art and music forums, then splitting them off again based on some sort of inside/outside idea? I'm about 1/3 joking BTW.

But as for my original point that launched this thread, I didn't want a new forum to discuss it in, more that Barbelith lacked the function for me to put it in one forum but then have the same thread title in the other fora leading to it (rather than Tom's starting of threads just to point to a topic in another forum). If that sort of function was possible I would be a happier Flower.
 
 
Saveloy
09:56 / 10.12.03
Re: a new section in The Revolution - how about 'Culture' as a title? Is that too broad?
 
  
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