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Grant Morrison interview at Comicon Pulse.

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Haus of Mystery

18:29 / 30.11.03

They should stop pussying around and fight like men, stripped to the waist in a dewy clearing first thing in the morn. Millar could hold Mozzers shirt, Jamie Delano Mooore's.

19:47 / 30.11.03

Or is Grant just upset that Moore seems to be better at both comics writing and magic?

How can you tell which of them is better at magic?

21:23 / 30.11.03

Well, one way would be to lock them both in clear plastic boxes and see which one starves first. It'd permanently settle the 'feud', but on the evidence of this thread I think we'd miss it.

Oh, and the comics.

23:21 / 30.11.03

I should have rephrased my last line: "Moore seems to be better at writing about both comics and magic."

Purely a matter of opinion, of course.

gotham island fae

22:09 / 02.12.03

rake at the gates:
so what drugs do we think he was on at the time of that interview, i'm thinking speed.

Kick, obviously.

GODz! What a self-elevated ass! Good interview.

re: GrAlanT MooreIsson
I LUV 'em, both. 'Nuff said.

22:37 / 02.12.03

Khaologan23ris:
"i think there's plenty o mutual respect for the dished-out goods - perhaps moore doesn't say much because it's pretty clear that morrison gets there first with the ideas, though moore generally takes the opportunity to articulate them more thoroughly [best example= doom patrol 51? c.'92 : 1963 c.'93]"

Nice point.

Morrison and Moore DO seem to pay attention to what each other's doing (but only Grant ever seems to make direct comments in interviews).

Anyone got other specific examples of creative to-ing and fro-ing between these guys?

Also, can someone enlighten me about "Elaborate Lad" (mentioned in some related thread I can't find right now) - apparently a Moore dig at Morrison in Supreme?

gotham island fae

01:28 / 03.12.03

Also, can someone enlighten me about "Elaborate Lad" (mentioned in some related thread I can't find right now) - apparently a Moore dig at Morrison in Supreme?

Billy Friday, a fellow writer with Supreme's alter ego, Ethan Crane. He's a %revolutionary%, revisionist comic author who ends up being fractalized into a great, grand mass of limbs and appendages upon his first visit to the floating citadel.

Some of the dialogue that Friday writes for the cover of Omniman:

"Not while I can still... unnNNGGH... tear my own heart out in a final statement that juxtaposes art, mysticism and buddhism!"

Billy, on the next page is very excited about the changes he's bringing to Omniman. Resurrecting the self-sacrificing hero as a "Hezbollah extremist", having Omni-Dog deal with it's "rape ordeal" and the mercury poisoning of Poseidonis.

He's a puffed-up writer who continues to blog his adventures as comic plots from Amalynth, the prism-city of light beings where his exponentially increasing size as Elaborate Lad wouldn't damage the Citadel Supreme. He comes back later as part of the circle in time paradox that created Supreme and a number of his more obtuse adventures.

07:05 / 03.12.03

Maybe it is because I just got home from the bar and I have alcohol swishing around my cranium, but that description of Elaborate Lad is a headfuck. That story element sounds more confusing than anything that was in The Filth or Doom Patrol.

So I guess Moore succeeded in his Morrision parody.

07:51 / 03.12.03

Frater Fae:
"He's a puffed-up writer who continues to blog his adventures as comic plots from Amalynth, the prism-city of light beings where his exponentially increasing size as Elaborate Lad wouldn't damage the Citadel Supreme. He comes back later as part of the circle in time paradox that created Supreme and a number of his more obtuse adventures."

Thanks Frater. It would appear that Elaborate Lad's adventures are quite elaborate.

Khaologan23ris:
"as for moore never coming off hard and slagging morrison - it's all there between the lines in the interviews. note the number of times moore has gone on record as saying arkham asylum was a disgrace 'but the art and lettering were good'"

I've never seen that comment ... do you have a reference or link?
My main complaint about that book was that the lettering style made it so hard to read.

So, anyone up for playing the Moore/Morrison - Who Influenced Whom game?

Specific examples required; eg Moore - Maxwell the Magic Cat (1979) / Morrison - Tony (The Filth 2002).

OK, maybe not THAT.

08:08 / 03.12.03

i think eddie campbell's egomania no.2 and andrew lewis' zarjaz! no. 4, [in last 18 months] among many other places since 1988.

13:04 / 03.12.03

Did Elaborate Lad/the writer look anything like Morrison?

gotham island fae

13:47 / 03.12.03

Not particularly. He's a pretty direct homage of Jimmy Olsen, "Superman's Pal", visually and thematically. It's more the pretension in Billy Friday's artistic stance that supports an argument for a Morrison parody.

I find it interesting that though Billy Friday is billed as "Supreme's Pal" he ends up being shunted off to a number of different prison-like dimensions and asylums as a consequence of his transformations, though he has no directly evil intentions.

14:05 / 03.12.03

there's lots of gags in suyppremem about the general gittishness of british comicbook writers. the friday character doesn't resemble morrison any more than, say, milligan, and the 'satirical point' he is used to make could just as easily spear smith, delano, gaiman or even moore himself.

15:58 / 03.12.03

So, anyone up for playing the Moore/Morrison - Who Influenced Whom game?

I would say Moore had a more direct influence on Morrison through early stuff, like Miracleman. In fact, IIRC, Morrison wanted to write a short Miracleman piece at one point in the 80's, but Moore refused to let him do it. That may have been the beginning of this entire feud.

I think Flex Mentallo, and to a lesser extent JLA, is a direct reaction to the breakdown of superheroes that Moore did in the 80's. Flex is all about bringing wonder back to the genre. For me, Watchmen, Miracleman and Flex Mentallo are the three most important superhero works ever published.

I don't think Moore was ever particularly influenced by Morrison, but he has become a lot more like GM in recent years. His 80's work shows no sign of the interest in magic that dominates Promethea. Moore has been reborn as someone who's more like Morrison than he was earlier. I don't think it's copying, or anything like that, it's just that they both have similar ideas, and express them in different ways.

The major difference between Moore and Morrison, at least recently, is that Moore seems to have more genuine affection for the silver age, and as a result, makes comics that are essentially silver or gold age comics, like Supreme or Tom Strong, complete with all the cheesy cover blurbs, and retro style. Morrison does not want to capture the actuality of those comics, he's more about the memory of it, the mad ideas and such. I see JLA as trying to make comics that are like the memory of older comics, not the comics themselves.

I don't think Morrison's comment in the interview that Alan Moore has spent 15 years to become him is inaccurate, but I don't think that Alan consciously set out to become Grant. He followed his own path, and ended up in a similar place.

20:07 / 03.12.03

Oh, you crazy Moore haterz! He hasn't been particularly "dark" since he finished Miracle Man, and it's hardly his fault that so many people love his work so much. I don't understand where this perception of his pomposity comes from. Both in his work and his interviews, he comes across as a very intelligent and humane, if somewhat cranky, dude. Anyway, it's Buddhist marketing, not a feud. I wonder if it's really necessary for one to be "better" than the other. They had their big Magickal duel here on Barbelith sometime last year--IIRC, Morrison won on style, but Moore got the TKO. I mean, Grant's full of shit a lot of the time.

[Moore's] 80's work shows no sign of the interest in magic that dominates Promethea.

The basic themes are pretty similar, though. He's been telling the same story over and over (the cost of power, blah blah fishcakes). It's a good story, though. I've also heard it said, with some fairness, that his greatest skill as a writer is consistently landing some of the best artists in the business.

03:23 / 04.12.03

//The major difference between Moore and Morrison, at least recently, is that Moore seems to have more genuine affection for the silver age, and as a result, makes comics that are essentially silver or gold age comics, like Supreme or Tom Strong, complete with all the cheesy cover blurbs, and retro style. Morrison does not want to capture the actuality of those comics, he's more about the memory of it, the mad ideas and such.//

hm, cool point. though I think Moore has been doing sctrict 'cover songs' of the Silver Age [1963, TOM STRONG, LoEG], while Morrison has captured the essence of the Silver Age spirit and shoved it it in a modern package [MARVEL BOY, THE FILTH (?) and possibly his next bunch of minis].

but what was that fight match videogame that made it possible for people to design their own fighters? we talked about that some years ago in a 'Moore/Morrison feud' thread.

anyway, I loved this Pulse interview. the bit about him being a good role model - for example - is priceless.

07:19 / 04.12.03

Re: Who influenced who game

Not to sure about the timeline of this, but having just read Flex Mentallo (absoloutely fucking brilliant by the way), the place where you get ideas from seems to be awfully familiar to Moore's 'Ideaspace' idea from Supreme(I think).

I'm pretty sure Flex came out before Supreme, so hmmm. Going on just memory, it seems to be a pretty blatant 'influenced' idea by Moore, unless I've gotten the timeline wrong and Flex came after Supreme.

01

08:07 / 04.12.03

I've heard about this fued before but have never read any actual transcripts before. Usually I hear about Morrison attacking Moore. It's obvious that he obviously feels threatened by Moore and has been for a long time. I bet he secretly digs Watchmen but is too proud and pissed off that he didn't come up with it first to ever admit it. I just read Watchmen again a few weeks ago for like the billionth time, and "gritty realism" aside (the stuff that Morrison is quite vocal about in the interview showing disdain for), Watchmen has plenty of fractal, time-is-one-entity, Invisibles-esque elements to it. He's just jealous because he can't write as "streetwise" as Moore can. Moore has more range and a greater wealth of knowledge. Morrison has no Frank Millar in him.

01

08:09 / 04.12.03

Sorry. "Miller".

09:44 / 04.12.03

Ok, I'll always side with Grant, as Invisibles changed my life, and animal man and 'Gothic' Legends of the Dark Knight 6-10 or whatever the #'ing was changed it before I even knew who Grant was, but this fued is the comic book equivalent of a rap fued; i.e.- who can say that Moore hasn't written some incredible shit! And as for the 'well that was then..' shit, all I can say is wasn't the second volume of LOEG better than the first? I mean, not only does the old opium fiend fuck Dracula's wife in the forest while 'Animal-men' watch (haha), but Hyde rapes the 'Invisible' (haha again) Man and then half the team dies.
Nice.
Plus, dont fuck with Snakes and Ladders and the Birth Caul.
Cheers
Neville

13:53 / 04.12.03

This so-called feud always rather reminds me of the alleged feud between Chris Morris and Victor Lewis-Smith, insofar as it seems to presuppose that you have to take one side over the other, and as a fan of both parties I’m kind of loathe to do that… maybe I’ve been reading too many comics which suggest that ‘us’ and ‘them’ aren’t so easily defined? Hurm.

I don’t know about the whole ‘reading between the lines in Moore interviews’ thing, to be honest – I’ve read a whole slew of interviews with Alan and it’s fairly rare that he says anything as overt as the digs which Grant makes, and Alan frequently refers to how few comics he reads, so he may not even be reading Grant’s work. And as I say, the frequency with which Grant seems to poke fun at Alan seems a bit unnecessary, though it’s clearly a good way to provoke a kind of knee-jerk ‘oooh, isn’t he a bad boy ? Real RawknRawl, tee hee’ / ‘How DARE he blaspheme against the great one of Northampton’ controversy. Then again, since Bill Jemas switched jobs, maybe the comic industry’s been missing a bit of that.

As for the personalities involved, I’ve only met Grant a couple of times, but whenever I have he’s been unfailingly friendly and polite, and on the greater number of occasions I’ve met Alan he’s been similarly chummy, if perhaps a tad more effusive and talkative than Grant. Both decent sorts, I feel, and both more than decent writers, doing their thing to try and share interesting ideas, and the idea that they’re waging some kind of feud seems a bit unlikely, really…

Not a bad interview, though.

14:08 / 04.12.03

From everything I've heard Alan Moore doesn't use the internet that much, if ever, so if he's not reading interviews on internet fan sites, he's possibly *unaware* that this alleged feud even exists.

01:25 / 05.12.03

As it appears that Moore is not reading many comics (and no internet) these days, he probably ISN''T that bothered with what Morrison is doing or saying.

But Grant doesn't mind throwing in a "controversial" comment or two, and I enjoy his scattershot, high-energy approach in interviews. He succeeds in generating some interesting sparks on the currently pretty dull comics landscape while promoting his upcoming projects and keeping his fans fanatical.

On the other hand Moore is preparing us for his departure from comics - that background detail in the "Later" issue of Promethea featuring a magazine called "Entertain Yourself" seems to be where he's at on the issue of comics fan worship.

Anyways, I'm interested in the old question of "where do your ideas come from" rather than some alleged feud.

Have Moore and Morrison actively picked up each other's ideas, work and comments and perhaps competed a little (a la Lennon and McCartney, who creatively benefitted from their rivalry)?

Or is it a matter of different creators independently accessing whatever are the dominant "idea-space" entities at the time (eg. the almost simultaneous creation of DC'c Swamp Thing and Marvel's Man-Thing - although I gather that the respective writers were sharing an apartment at the time!)

I dunno. Besides the Doom Patrol 53(?) / 1963 example of Moore/Morrison mutual influence which Khaologan23iris mentioned earlier, the only (lame) example I can come up with at present is:
Moore - The Eye, Ear, Nose, Mouth and Finger (V for Vendetta 1983) / Morrison - The Hand (The Filth 2002).

Any more?

01:50 / 05.12.03

The last time I read the Invisibles I saw subtextual references to V for Vendetta all over it, especially toward the end, but I wonder if that wasn't the artists' doings.

03:27 / 05.12.03

Qalyn: You're right, I do remember feeling something like that.

Cameron's right I feel a bit embarassed even talking about the feud when it's only Morrison generating "Controversy" and just calling names.

Somewhere up there said that Morrison is jealous of Watchmen and secretly was blown away by it, and he's 100% right. I've always gotten that impression because Invisibles as brilliant as it was can't hope to be as perfectly structured and comprehensively standalone as Watchmen. Not that it tries though.

As much as I love the series, Invisibles is ripe with flaws and failings and that isn't something I can say about Watchmen.

Morrison said in an interview a while back how he was outraged that Invisibles didn't win any awards during it's run. I get the feeling he was expecting it to follow and surpass the reaction Watchmen had which is absurd of me to suggest but I'm just thinking out loud.

I don't think Moore has been influenced by Morrison at all but then I haven't read 1963 and don't plan to because I can't care for Silver Age homages. But a lot of times I feel Morrison consciously tries to redo and outdo what Moore has done before but so many times it's done in his own brilliant Grantlike way that it can stand as an original and terrific work. I think "Best Man Fall" which is my favourite Morrison comic is somewhat a reworking of what Moore did in the "Watchmaker" chapter in Watchmen. Morrison does use similar tools and premises which is consciously done as Morrison is a lot more aware of what Moore does and Moore doesn't give a shit.

I'm tired as hell right now and I do remember noticing more than once that Morrison was trying to best Moore, which is hardly possible.
They're both different drugs and even when they're doing the same thing, it's not the same thing.

I don't think Moore has been influenced by Morrison but I swear it is the other way round.

03:29 / 05.12.03

I have to add that Moore may be a superior writer (IMO of course) but Morrison geniunely excites me and inspires me a lot more.

And that Morrison has been laying a lot of stinkers in his X-Men run.

06:27 / 05.12.03

I just had a quick re-read of the interview and noted that Morrison's Moore slagging is just one paragraph out of, well, a LOT! But it's the one paragraph that many of us have picked up and run with. Might be a little galling for Grant.

The "guvmint-sponsored superheroes" theme is one he touches on a few times though ...

Yes that particular trope IS way tired; I'm glad someone's called it. And maybe just a teensy dig at former protege Mark Millar? (No, I'm not trying to start another feud discussion!)

I wonder what Morrison thinks of BENDIS - anybody heard anything? Bendis' comics are kind of the opposite of Morrison's - very very relaxed pacing (!), heavy on characterisation (allegedly), urban realism (although recently he's been playing around more with the fantasy and sci-fi aspects of superheroes and their continuity), sparse dialogue (and what's up with those little parenthetical bits he keeps putting in dialogue?) (oh, ok.)

... totally anti-Silver Age, really. Bendis is probably the most popular mainstream writer at the moment, and maybe Morrison's new prime comics rival? (No, I'm not trying to start another feud discussion!)

Anyway I'm glad Morrison is in there trying to kick up some new stuff.

Haus of Mystery

13:07 / 05.12.03

I find it a bit weird that Moore has *never* given Mozzer any props in any interview, whereas Grant has both honoured and slated the aforementioned. At least he recognises that he exists. They've both been doing sterling work for the industry for donkeys, but you wouldn't think it reading Moore's copy. Anyway it doesn't really matter. I love both of 'em, egotism included.

14:53 / 05.12.03

GM has given Bendis, Johns (?!) and Stracynszki props at his website, ages ago.

15:20 / 05.12.03

Am I an asshole for suggesting that the first place I can remember seeing "Tt" as the transcription of the toothsucking noise, as opposed to "tsk" is in Big Numbers #1? I'm not a Discordian, honest.

Bendis makes my teeth hurt, but I haven't read any of his stuff in a long time, mostly because I thought his early stuff was so awful. For instance, POWERS was a big steaming pile with flies on it, in my opinion. But okay, let's talk about the interview. My biggest beef with Morrison's interview-persona is the way he keeps trying to tell people what to write--which is, by proxy, telling us what to read. Fuck off, dude. What do you care? I love his comics, obviously, but I wish he'd take a page from Brad Pitt's book when talking to the press.

15:26 / 05.12.03

>>> wonder what Morrison thinks of BENDIS - anybody heard anything?<<<

I had assumed that the line in the interview about "stage plays and radio dramas masquerading as comics" was a swipe, if not directly at Bendis, at least at that style of dialogue-heavy, kitchen-sink, Aunt-May-at-the-therapist style of superhero comics that seems to be so popular.

15:36 / 05.12.03

>>>My biggest beef with Morrison's interview-persona is the way he keeps trying to tell people what to write--which is, by proxy, telling us what to read<<<

Well, of course he is, and what he's telling you to read are HIS COMICS. It's all just Grant's style of hype and self-promotion, an update of what Stan Lee used to do by making comics readers feel that by reading Marvel, they were cooler than the DC kids. Grant's telling everyone that the old ways are boring, grampa, and he's got the fresh new shit of the future, and if you want to stay on the cutting edge you better follow his lead, whether you're making comics or reading them.

It's all pretty funny, really, and anyone who gets angry when reading his interviews needs to get a sense of humour.

16:44 / 05.12.03

Well, I hope I didn't sound angry. Maybe a little eye-rolly. Generally, I think he's a pretty funny guy.

16:52 / 05.12.03

As much as I love the series, Invisibles is ripe with flaws and failings and that isn't something I can say about Watchmen.

wow, i would go totally the other way on that. The Invisibles totally overshadows Watchmen in every way, to me. i think Invisibles rarely, if ever, fails, whereas Watchmen really makes a bold attempt but falls a little flat in the end. i realize i'm probably in the minority here, though.

Grant's telling everyone that the old ways are boring, grampa, and he's got the fresh new shit of the future, and if you want to stay on the cutting edge you better follow his lead, whether you're making comics or reading them.

i agree, and if you can't just laugh and give props to the sheer hysterical balls it takes to come out and say that you're about to relegate all of comics history to the role of John the Baptist to your new work WHICH IS THE COMING OF JESUS CHRIST ALL-FUCKING-MIGHTY then i don't know what's wrong with you...

i mean, HO-LEE SHIT, did he really just say that?

The Natural Way

17:03 / 05.12.03

I think the whole "Look, Moore's copying Morrison!" thing's far too easy and simple. Anyone that's read Steve Bissette's brief history of his time working with old beardy-weird could tell you right now, when big Al's pissed with someone he's REAL pissed and he goes to great pains to insure that their stuff NEVER intersects with his. So, I can easily imagine a situation where Moore doesn't even steal a glance at Grant's books on the shelf. It sounds like the sort of thing he'd do. What absolutely DOESN'T sound like something he'd do is steal another writer's ideas. The guy's middle name is 'conviction' and 'earnest beardiness'.

The fact is (and, yes, I've read the latest Promethea), I tend to think Al and Grant come up with these ideas contemporaneously simply by virtue of the fact that they read similar books, have similar interests and are both very interested in comics as a technology.... Y'know, it's not that big a hop skip or a jump for anyone that's come across 'Flatland' (or any of that multiple dimension theory jazz) to apply the FROM 2D TO 3D! stuff to their stories.

Sure, I don't think there's any love lost between Moore and Morrison, but these are grown men who aren't robbing and plagiarising and at child-war with each other. I think we should treat and view them as such.

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