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'Fictional' vs. 'Real' magic

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15:09 / 28.11.06

Is working with Elvis more akin to working with (former real people) Doctor John or Marie Laveau, I wonder?

From what I understand, many voodoo practitioners work with both of them.

And how different is that from working with Catholic saints (some of whom presumably were real people) in Santeria?

15:28 / 28.11.06

That's what I was getting at. I work with a few former real people, including Dr John and Marie Laveau. As Spirits, whilst powerful, there is a bit of a difference between their nature and that of the main Lwa of the pantheon. For instance, Shango may well have once been the fourth King of the Yoruba, a living person who was Sainted upon death. But primarily, what you are dealing with there is the human interface for having a relationship with the mysteries of fire, thunder and passion. Which is very deep stuff. Dr John and Marie Laveau, and presumably Elvis, don't really have that mystery behind them in quite the same way. They are a different form of Spirit that doesn't quite tap into the Big Stuff in exactly the same way.

I think the whole Sainted Ancestors thing is really interesting, as a lot of the Gods of various pantheons were once living people, but there seems to be a point where they become less like the people they were in life, and more like an anthropomorphised force of nature, and this seems to relate to the difference between fully fledged Gods and other Spirits.

20:24 / 28.11.06

That distinction makes a lot of sense... would it add anything to mention the justification she has used to soothe people who get riled up by her choice of focus?
She has explained Elvis as the personification of a number of major gods within the neo-pagan movement, in his partying, ecstatic moments, as dionysus incarnate for example.
And (my thought) while he was a real person, just as with the saints, how she pictures him is drawn from the stories about him. We connect to them through stories, rather than as actual formerly-alive people. I guess there are two points here, and I'm not sure if you would consider them useful,

1. Elvis was a living person, but when worshipped/worked with is contacted through the mythological persona that has built up around him. So the Elvis that is worked with is drawn from a fictional account, although he does still have the *having been alive* thing going for him...
2. Elvis as a face through which older gods can touch us. Just as, arguably, if you are drawn to Buffy in that way she could become a face for Artemis to touch us, and the archetype of the old Witch in fairy tales may become a face for Cerridwen or Hel, and the old myths present a face of the deity through which they touch us. I hope it's clear what I intend by this.

I have the feeling that your distinction is right, saints/beloved dead are different from deities, and different again from characters that are being built up as thoughtforms (for lack of better term) or who are being used by deities to speak through, as I can see a deity using a character as a mask to get through to people, or as people using a character to reach an archetype.
Having said that, the stories of the old gods may have had a similar function and the names and faces from the stories have become attached to the beings who touched us through them.

21:25 / 28.11.06

Rude Boy:
If you gave me a solid example of someone who is having that kind of fully immersive transformative magic stuff going on in their lives through a fictional context

The success of Scientology would also suggest a wide level of acceptability of fiction as the basis for religion.

You mean the popularity, though, I assume? This seems like a contradiction of your above statement - Scientology is filled with people who are experiencing a fully immersive transformative experience in a totally invented context.

I guess it's just a twitch, but I think you are really underestimating the significance and value of community in a spiritual context. But that's neither here nor there. If I understand correctly, you're trying to talk specifically about the idea of relating to an individual fictional character as a god, yes?

And in that sense, I can't prove you wrong, because I'm not in anybody else's head but my own, so I have no way to measure if the relationships other people have with their beloved characters are as deep as the relationships I have with my gods.

The most I've got personally is that Lewis Carroll's Alice seems to be one third of the identity of the Ancestor/Ally/I'm not sure what to call Her that I work with. The other two sides seem to be my actual Great Aunt Alice, and my own dark reflection (literally. I saw Her in a dark mirror, and then She stepped out).

Haloquin:
I have the feeling that your distinction is right, saints/beloved dead are different from deities, and different again from characters that are being built up as thoughtforms (for lack of better term) or who are being used by deities to speak through, as I can see a deity using a character as a mask to get through to people, or as people using a character to reach an archetype.

I think this is pretty close to my actual sense of the subject. Only I see it as more of a spectrum with some distinction lines drawn on it? On the one hand, I suppose there's a lot more direct connection behind the high end of the spectrum. On the other hand, I don't think the other end of the spectrum presents no connection at all.

--Ember--

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