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Hallucinogens' Effects - molecular or personal?

 
 
espy
02:13 / 18.11.03
Having not taken any hallucinogens myself (unfortunately, and its unfortunate because I really want to) I would like to ask for your opinions on this. It's both scientific and magick related, as well as humanities-related (or however you say that), so I don't know where to put it...move it if you think it would be best somewhere else?
The question: Is the effect that hallucinogenic drugs have on humans created by the molecular interactions themselves, or rather the expectations, past experiences, and/or personal beliefs?
Going further, do you think the actual chemical process creates the specific visuals seen (such as the geometric shapes and the heightening of the visual sense)? Or is it probably more because of what the person was expecting to experience from what they have heard. Or maybe, in the case of DMT, figures or symbols from their past come as hallucinations during the trip.
Any thoughts...?
 
 
captain piss
07:04 / 18.11.03
Well…blimey, I think it gets into that whole area of “at what level do your perceptions actually correspond to real biological goings-on in your brain?”
I’m a bit out of my depth on that one…

I would say the hallucinations I’ve had on different drugs have had different qualities. I get particular things on acid…rapidly changing, complex geometric shapes. Things repeating themselves endlessly, like fractals. Hallucinations I’ve had on marijuana/puff (only after taking large amounts) have been more like odd distortions of time and space, things being distended, rooms feeling like they have different dimensions from what they normally have. I’ve only had light hallucinations off mushrooms – lights and colours seeming more intense or meaningful.
I suppose all hallucinogens seem quite similar when you just take small doses- it’s when you take loads of them that you get into the specific qualities, the finer grain details (god, I sound like some early 90s, bedroom stoner/bore). And these specific qualities would seem to be something to do with the way the drug acts on your brain rather than arising from expectations based on what you’ve read/heard.
 
 
eye landed
08:07 / 18.11.03
No humanitarian, magickian, or scientist has a good grasp on how the biological brain relates to cognition--except me, and I'm not telling. But one thing that's pretty certain is that processes in the brain don't correspond to linguistic categories. Chemicals and language did not inform each other during their respective conceptions.

So while you can get sort of an idea of what a drug will do through description, I don't think we'll ever be able to say "LSD makes you A, psilocybin makes you B, mescaline makes you C, and alcohol makes you P" (maybe those last two are true).

The actual effect that a hallucinogen will have is informed by all of the factors you mentioned, and plenty more. Each brain is unique, due to unique genetic and (ongoing) developmental influences. But since each brain is based on the same chemical building blocks, there will be some overlap in how external chemicals affect its functioning.

Unfortunately for you, current neuropsychological knowledge is not up to the task of explaining how the brain's chemical processes apply to any individual. Even if we could determine, for example, that a drug will induce flashbacks, we'd have to know the entire history of the person in question in order to even begin to guess which of their personal memories will be involved.

On the other hand, some people have the idea that DMT, at least, makes you aware at a molecular level. Other hallucinogens could induce similar modal shunts. This addresses the magickal aspect of your question, but it may leave behind neuropsychology in favour of a non-materially reductive model of consciousness.
 
 
Quantum
13:51 / 18.11.03
Different hallucinogens induce different types of visuals, but different people see different things. If you took LSD, mushrooms and DMT you'd have qualitatively different hallucinations (acid is more geometric, mushrooms are more organic etc.) and you could with practice identify what drug you'd taken by it's effects.
On the other hand different people could take the same acid and have pretty different hallucinations (it's fun to compare with friends what you are all seeing).
For example, you and a friend take acid and look at a white wall. You see infinitely detailed multicoloured fractal alphabets, they see growing paisley patterns.
Then you both (later!) take mushrooms, you see a swirling mass of colours that moves around like a jellyfish, your friend sees all the colours in the room drain into his hands.
There will be similarities in the trip between you and your friend, and similarites between the drugs, both having about an equal effect. Some people get visuals more easily (often magickally inclined folk) some drugs are more or less visual ('This acid is really thinky') and the factors combine.

So, like always, a bit of both.
 
 
grant
14:52 / 18.11.03
Expectations, past experiences and personal beliefs exist in (or are filtered through) the brain, which is what the chemicals interact with. So your perceptions, to a larger degree than you may at first suspect, are shaped by your preconceptions (expectations, etc). It's like they're the frame to the mirror that the chemicals are tilting backwards and forwards.

Biologically, the chemicals appear to target specific brain areas, some of which would respond to a sense of geometry or color or vision. So on that level, the visuals come from the chemical and not from what you're expecting to see. The way your brain feeds the visuals into your consciousness, however, is totally shaped by the preconceptions.
 
 
cusm
15:34 / 18.11.03
The best I can put it is, they stimulate areas of the brain into firing, and allow for associations and cross connections to happen that normally wouldn't. The cross firing happens on many levels. Sometimes as sudden creative ideas, sometimes as sensory data bleeds out of the structures it is normally held in. That much is consistent across different drugs, its just the specifics of what they target and how that affect the different flavors of trip.

As for what makes the experiences, its always a combination of your current input (both from internal and external sources), and the impulses of your subconscious. The drugs don't cause specific visions so much as allow your brain to create certain types of visions dependent upon the data it has to work with. Although sometimes it can also be freeform creation rather than drawing from past data. Its not always what you know, sometimes its what you can make, which may or may not have any relation to anything in your subconscious.

Like anything dealing with brains, its complicated.
 
 
topical b
19:54 / 18.11.03
a friend of mine that is studying biofeedback in tampa fl. once told me that the visuals a person sees while on lsd are a combination of two things. heather says that a person on lsd's eyes focus so hard that the eye's cornea comes partially into focus. because lsd increases a person's tendency to complete visual patterns, the distortion of existing textures (i.e. carpet, wallpaper, clouds) by the extreme focusing cause a person to see patterns(i.e. fractals, writing, funny little stick people dancing)

this analyses or a visual hallucination has since ruined the magic of good visuals for me. don't even get me started on intramuscular ketamine's visuals.

so far as what patterns are perceived by the brain, there has to be a degree of subjectivity.
 
 
LVX23
20:12 / 18.11.03
There is the chemistry induced by the substance, and then there is the cognitive response to the chemistry.

Physiology will vary somewhat from individual to indivdual. Absorption rates and disposition may vary by weight and metabolism, but anyone who ingests, say, 250mics of pure LSD is going to get pretty much the same fundamental chemical load. Much of these compounds (LSD, Psilocybin) goes straight to the midbrain and the Reticular Activating System. The RAS is like a major router from the hindbrain to the cortex and can be alternately excitatory and inhibitory, so some parts of the cortex get turned on while others get turned off. The occipital cortex - the visual cortex at the back of the head - gets excitatory input and begins to fire excessively. This is the foundation for patterns seen with these substances. But the RAS also arcs onto many other cortical areas, like the auditory cortex and higher associative neural tissue. This contributes to the general CNS stimulus that these compounds have - you get turned on, antsy, hyperaware.

However it is very unlikely that you will ever encounter pure LSD, or even LSD-25. More likely you will find something with impurities from the manufacturing process, or something that isn't even LSD-25 (there are many derivatives with differing effects).

Things start to get a bit more complex going from a pure substance like LSD to an organic one like Psilocybin, as delivered by Psilocybe cubensis, the friendly mushroom. Here you have a whole bunch of secondary compounds that make the mushroom a living organism, some of which are a bit toxic. This lends to the death & rebirth experience so common with mushrooms and is, in part, a toxicological response of your entire system to a poison. Also the chemistry of psilocybin, and its metabolite psilocin, is different from LSD and will accordingly distribute itself in the brain a bit differently. It's like a program that will run on the same operating system but will modulate it in a different manner.

So, this has just been a very topical overview of the chemistry. Each hallucinogen has a basic program that it's going to run in your brain. The brain in turn will have its activity modified which will impact higher cortical regions (your mind) as well as the rest of your nervous system (your body). Now, the really interesting part is how your mind tries to cope with the situation, overlaying patterns on excess firing in the visual cortex, invoking memories and archetypes, dissassociations from the body, a feeling of connectedness, as well as any myriad of variations on the above. Hence, the experience of one is not likely to be that of another.

However, as an interesting aside (forgive my ramble but this is a topic near and dear to my heart), there have been anthropological studies with the complex of compounds known as Ayahuasca which seem to imply that this particular batch of chemistry holds certain archetypes. In other words, aside from simply modifying neurochemistry, it also seems to modify mind in very distinct, reproducible ways. An Amazonian native taking Ayahuasca sees visions of snakes, jungles, and jaguars. A resident of Los Angeles taking ayahuasca sees snakes, jungles, and jaguars. An Inuit taking ayahuasca sees snakes, many trees, and "large cats" (having no conception of Jaguars). So it may be that strong cultural associations with specific compounds actually impart meaning into that space, adding specific content to an otherwise abstract experience. Therefore, there may actually be cognitive similarities between the trips of one LSD user and another. Maybe the peace & love vibe has been irrevocably bound to the LSD gestalt, perhaps like the alien encounter experience seems bound to DMT. This of course lends credence to the notion that these substances are indeed keys to certain experiential models beyond mere chemistry.

But this is getting into a whole nother super-cool topic that I could rant about for days...
 
 
Quantum
14:48 / 19.11.03
LVX23, is there a similar consistency of vision across cultures for Peyote? Or is that just in Castaneda?

[off topic]
Reticular Activating System. The RAS is like a major router from the hindbrain to the cortex and can be alternately excitatory and inhibitory
Hans Eysenck (famous psychologist) posited that the ascending RAS was the cause of introversion/extroversion (which he identified/invented). The theory goes that Introverts have a RAS that boosts sensory signals more, so they require less stimulus and thus avoid intense sensations, while Extrovert people have their sensory signals boosted less by their RAS which means they seek out excitement.
The Ascending RAS can be thought of like an amp in a stereo, boosting the weak nerve signals coming into the brain to the appropriate intensity.

I invented a fictional drug (called 'Boost') that stimulated the ARAS, designed to help those extroverts who get bored easy, but that could be taken with other substances to amplify their effects, leading to a trip of greater intensity.
Is such a thing possible? [/offtopic]
 
 
espy
01:05 / 20.11.03
No humanitarian, magickian, or scientist has a good grasp on how the biological brain relates to cognition--except me, and I'm not telling.
Aw...you must be the type that doesn't want anybody to know the TRUTH
I understand that the drug stimulates the areas of the brain which affects what you see, and actually, LVX23, I was wondering about the cultural aspect as well. Many of the people here, and even you, have said that everybody has different experiences. Except you said...
An Amazonian native taking Ayahuasca sees visions of snakes, jungles, and jaguars. A resident of Los Angeles taking ayahuasca sees snakes, jungles, and jaguars. An Inuit taking ayahuasca sees snakes, many trees, and "large cats" (having no conception of Jaguars).
Which makes me wonder if there's any documentation on this type of thing from different areas of the world? Where someone from China might see a dragon, it would seem strange that someone from somewhere that has no knowledge of dragons sees them and from that I would say its definitely the drug causing the specific visuals.
In other words, I understand that chemicals affect the brain so you can see the visions...what I'm questioning is the actual objects you see, like the geometric shapes or what inanimate voyeur was describing. For those that have done them, and compared with friends, what similarities did you notice? I know there are differences...If I think about this for too long, I get confused, heh...
 
 
eye landed
07:14 / 20.11.03
In most cases, any attempt to describe psychadelic effects will fail, because they transcend language, just like everyday observable experience. But unlike everyday experience, hallucinations do not presume a "common playing field," so any linguistic metaphors we use to "pin them down" will not make sense to anyone. The chemical functions of the brain are generally not based on the categories and functions we define linguistically.

Ahayuasca may be a different story. But I have no direct experience with it, or with DMT in any other form. I mentioned above that it has been written that DMT lets you see molecules (or something).

My theory is that psychadelics (especially cannabis) often affect our sense of time. Evidence: they throw off one's ability to synchronize temporal experience with the movement of celestial bodies (i.e. time by the clock); they make one "more aware" of certain experiences, which I take to mean that they actually give one more time to experience things (music is a good example, but so are visuals, which can often be spoken of as an overawareness of detail); the feeling of regression, in which our minds function as they did when we were younger (when they were less full and each moment of time was a greater proportion of all the time encoded in the neurons); many psychadelics (especially cannabis) affect memory, which is rather a fancy word for a sense of time. I think this theory is primarily true of cannabinoids, but I think other psychadelics have time-distortion as merely one facet of their total effect.
 
 
LVX23
06:13 / 21.11.03
My theory is that psychadelics...often affect our sense of time.

It is known that psychedelics affect serotonergic pathways, which in turn affect the pineal gland. Tryptamines in particular are thought to exist naturally in the pineal and the gland is likely further modulated by the ingestion of exogenous tryptamines.

The pineal gland is the seat of the circadian cycle, the perception and coordination of the organism with the passing of time as presented by the rising and setting sun. There is evidence that the pineal is capably of very precisely tracking the passage of time, so it may be that the pineal is the master clock of the mammalian nervous system. If psychedelics modulate its activity, then they would possibly alter the sense of time, changing the speed of the clock.

This of course is a strictly neurochemical perspective. Psychedelic compounds many aspects of the nervous system and it's offspring, consciousness, so there are certainly many factors that come in to play when attempting to analyze their effects.
 
 
The Tower Always Falls
16:43 / 26.11.03
um... not to be a paranoid asshole or anything, but do we REALLY want to be casually offering illegal substances for sale over a public message board? This seems extraordinally ill-advised to me... Mods?
 
 
The Tower Always Falls
16:58 / 26.11.03
And if we want to get further into the chmical perspective, if you look at the molecular structure of certain neurotransmitters, you see that they're extraordinarilly similar to hallucenogenic chemicals. Norepinephrine is only a couple Carbon and Oxygen molecules away from MDMA and Mescaline, while Serotonin in practically the exact same molecule as DMT and Psilocin (That's why DMT evaporates so quickly upon taking it, mushrooms at least have a few other bonds plus the long acting release of your stomach breaking it down to extend the effects...)

Yes, I've read too much Terrence McKenna.
 
 
LVX23
18:49 / 26.11.03
I'm generally against most moderation but in this case I think there should be some intervention.

Swiss, this is not a board for hawking merchandise, whatever it may be. And offering illicit goods makes the board a target for whatever snooping eyes may be out there. Imagine Barb being shut down because some DEA kook thinks it's a clearinghouse for drugs and porn.

Please don't make such posts again.
 
  
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