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Prince Charles Allegation

 
  

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Ariadne
13:26 / 10.11.03
And in terms of you being outside the UK, it doesn't matter. This is Tom's site, based in the UK. So behave, or pay his legal bill.
 
 
Ariadne
13:30 / 10.11.03
Oh dear, I sound very grouchy in the last two posts - sorry. I'm not really.
 
 
Sax
13:38 / 10.11.03
I want to open that link now, but I'm scared. What's on it?
 
 
Bear
13:42 / 10.11.03
I photoshopped pic, I really wouldn't click on it if your at work - I did earlier but thankfully nobody was around!
 
 
Ariadne
13:45 / 10.11.03
hee hee. You'll just have to wait till you're home! It's not that exciting, just a bit too much naked flesh for a work PC to be viewing.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
14:17 / 10.11.03
I clicked on it too and was like arrgghhh, back browser because the acting CEO was standing right behind me and I didn't realise. Hear my weak laughter.
 
 
Not Here Still
17:26 / 10.11.03
I wish I hadn't let my blog die now. I have a massive rant which I would love to post about this whole thing, but stuff looks like it turned awfuwy scwewy on this thread today, so while I'm fairly sure that I could keep it within the bounds of non-libellous and non-contempting court* - I did train in media law after all - I am leaving it. Anyone wants a guest writer on their blog, PM me or e-mail me.

I would just like to say that I can entirely respect Tom's feelings on this and completely understand where he is coming from; this falls on his shoulders, after all.

But I do think this is yet another example of why the Royal family is a complete farce - not the allegations themselves, but the way in which they have moved to suppress debate about them in this country.

Republic is becoming a very important word for me, in more ways than one.

(*The injunction was brought on the grounds of libel, IIRC, but the actual business of stating what it covers would be contempt of court. Of course, this means that those publishing them run a double risk.)
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
21:27 / 10.11.03
Purely as a matter of interest, it is actually treasonous to discuss in print the abolition of the Monarchy in the UK.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
00:09 / 11.11.03
Sorry! Thought that was subtle enough... could've been wrong though. Figured it would get deleted if not, so...

Sorry again.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
08:51 / 11.11.03
Stoatie, for goodness' sake! It wasn't bloody 128-bit encryption. They teach acrostics to kids as part of GCSE English. More important, if it comes to the crunch, it's not about how subtle you are; it's about publishing an allegation. It doesn't matter if you do it in a mixture of Welsh and Klingon.

That may be ludicrous, but it's the law. At least for now.
 
 
The resistable rise of Reidcourchie
09:20 / 11.11.03
What's acrostics?

I'm thoroughly looking forward to the first Barbelith treason trial.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
09:32 / 11.11.03
Point taken.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
09:42 / 11.11.03
What are acrostics? And Nick, he's already apologised, go easy.
 
 
Bill Posters
09:48 / 11.11.03
Stoatie, for goodness' sake! It wasn't bloody 128-bit encryption. They teach acrostics to kids as part of GCSE English.

would i look incredibly stoopid if I were to admit that I've only just got the whole acrostics thing, and didn't get the message when I read the now deleted post? I'm such a shitwit sometimes, though I did have rather a bad hangover that day...
 
 
The resistable rise of Reidcourchie
10:05 / 11.11.03
Apparently you'd be considerably less stupid than us who still don't know what acrostics are, though apparently GCSE students do.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
10:10 / 11.11.03
Acrostics: where the first letter of each line spells a word or message is you read downwards (see Tom's post on the previous page for an example).
 
 
Bear
10:22 / 11.11.03
Ah it all makes sense now, I thought maybe Tom was singing his last post
 
 
The resistable rise of Reidcourchie
10:27 / 11.11.03
Should we now read all posts vertically as well as horizontally? And write them as such? Barbelith is becoming a very confusing place.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
10:36 / 11.11.03
It's probably not that we weren't taught it, I know I didn't listen to a lot of my GCSE teacher's incessant babble after the first couple of weeks. I mean, the woman was having difficulty analysing Lord of the Flies, the most transparent book ever.
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
10:40 / 11.11.03
No, but paranoia is endemic. As is self-importance.

Fucksake. It WAS subtle enough, clearly, for most people. If you're that uptight and have that big a problem with the subject of the thread, delete it and stop being precious. This is the kind of imbecilic childishness that makes this board unreadable sometimes.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
11:08 / 11.11.03
Can we not get in to arguments about something so small?

If Tom wants it gone than it's his right as the person who pays for this and any legal costs surrounding the board. His money, his right, justified paranoia. That's it basically.

Stoatie hasn't objected to its deletion, he's only asked a few questions- fair enough when you're getting a post deleted and he's apologised very sweetly for putting it there in the first place. The end of the matter I believe. Everyone's right blah blah blah (shrewcakes).
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
11:14 / 11.11.03
Okay.

Stoatie, I'm sorry I snapped at you. I got protective. Sadly, concealing a message in an acrostic doesn't alter the fact of its publication. The term 'publish' in legal language is somewhat elastic - a letter from one person to another is enough, I think. It's akin to the definition of 'creating' pornographic images including downloading them.

Jack, I'm sorry that it offends you that Tom is concerned about libel in this rather ludicrous yet heated debate the Palace is having with itself and the newspapers, and I'm sorry you think that banging the libel point home is self-important and childish. If you find the thread unreadable, I suggest you read something else.

While it isn't likely that there would (will) be adverse consequences of Stoatie's posting, several factors come to mind:

1) it isn't unthinkable, and if there were an action, I don't know how easy it would be to defend.

2) it certainly wouldn't be any fun.

3) there are other aspects of Barbelith which we might prefer were not too carefully scrutinised by the forces of law and order - especially if someone were trying to find reasons to shut the place down or make trouble for members.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
11:37 / 11.11.03
This might seem like a bit of an odd question and particularly in the context of what the board has been like but right now, is there actually anything we would mind being scrutinised?

I mean wrt this thread, it's still content that you'll find all over the Internet. It's just careful to delete this kind of material in case they decide to actually pick random sites to screw over (and let's face it, they have enough money if one of them gets upset).
 
 
Tryphena Absent
11:39 / 11.11.03
Oh and guys, we have a place for your arguments, it's called the Tantrum thread.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
14:23 / 11.11.03
Not all disagreements have to be tantrums, surely?

There's no particular need for them to pick random sites, I think. They could just make a list of all of them. That it would take ages and cost money means nothing if they're on the warpath. They might reasonably expect to break quite a lot of resistance before ever going to court.

As to what we might not want examined - there are several things we talk about which could be used to make life difficult for one or all of us. The Magick routinely features discussion of illegal drugs - not necessarily a crime in itself, but both a threat to jobs and a possible legal cause to investigate more deeply; the Switchboard has occasionally had threads which could be construed by an unfavourable judge as worthy of investigation in the interests of counter-terror (always remembering that the police force's new anti-terror powers were used against anti Arms Fair demonstrators not long ago); some of Deva's Harry Potter slash probably walks the line of obscenity laws in the UK.

In the end, it's probably not that the site couldn't stand the scrutiny, but that many of us have aspects of our lives we really don't need Special Branch, our insurers, our employers, or the Daily Mail running their hands over.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
14:34 / 11.11.03
...ummm... can I just point out that I'm not arguing with anyone?

Back to the (almost) subject (almost) at hand (and don't worry- no spoilers )-

The Independent on Sunday (I think it was) had a great piece where they went round asking people what they thought this was all about. By the time the late edition came out, they had EXACTLY the same article, but with certain words blacked out. Not removed- blacked out, like in MoD shit. (They also illustrated the piece with a wonderfully chosen photo which I probably shouldn't describe, but which was a fuck sight better than my heavy-handed attempt at subtlety).

Anyway, Nick- no offence taken. Mea culpa.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
14:43 / 11.11.03
That really is paranoid. How are private employers going to get our details unless it's a private investigation... a thread about Prince Charles isn't going to attract their attention to the site? Insurers aren't going to be able to trace anyone unless they end up in the press and nothing on this site is going to land you there unless you're famous. The threads that the service might be attracted to are nothing compared to a board like U75 and that means they probably won't be looking here all that often and they're not going to bother about some slash when they have child pornography out there.

There's so far you can go and we haven't gone that far at all. This is not a dangerous site to contribute too because it's not a site that's about active participation in illegal activity.
 
 
Not Here Still
16:23 / 11.11.03
Nick: a letter from one person to another is enough, I think.

No, to publish something in regard to libel law is to two or more people. If I had, say, e-mailed someone on the board about this, then I would be OK, I think, with regard to libel; that said, I'm not sure of the legality of contempting court on the injunction however.

WRT to the discussion of abolition of the Monarchy; you are quite right; the Guardian, who of course prompted all of this with their legal challenge to the second injunction saying you couldn't name the person in the first injunction, took a case to court about it.

The sentence is pretty harsh; life imprisonment. But saying Republic is an important word isn't the same as calling for the abolition of the Monarchy, of course.

In other news, one of the sites hosting these allegations has pulled them; or at least, I keep getting 404s when I visit the particular links.
 
 
Linus Dunce
16:43 / 11.11.03
No, to publish something in regard to libel law is to two or more people.

I'm no libel expert in England or anywhere else, but this seemed to me to be unlikely. And a quick google revealed that it is unlikely to get you off the hook. A lot of libel trouble is caused by not checking facts ...

See here for a quote from a Writers' and Artists' Yearbook article on libel: http://www.writersworld.tv/newsletter/16-04-02.html
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
16:47 / 11.11.03
Tryphena, I didn't say a Prince Charles thread would draw employers' attention. I said that Barbelith might not hold up well to the close legal scrutiny which could result from a libel suit. As to how people could be traced, I imagine in the first instance that in the event of separate investigations arising from a suit, Tom could be compelled to hand over addresses, IP numbers and so on.

I agree most discussions here are anodyne. That doesn't mean they aren't in breach of the law (or don't refer to activities which are), just that the breaches are fairly obviously insignificant. However, if those breaches become obnoxiously obvious, as they might during the course of a libel suit, then triviality could cease to be an issue. It's like the difference between smoking a spliff every morning at home and doing the same thing in front of a police station.

As for slash and child porn - until someone shows me a test case, I'm not convinced that the 1959 Obscene Publications Act could not be applied if someone got in a tizzy about it.

(From IWF)

Obscene Publications Act 1959

The law on obscene publications is difficult to define in everyday terms, and it is for a court to decide what is obscene. As a guide it would be images featuring extreme acts of sexual activity such as bestiality, non-consensual sex or extreme torture.

This act makes it an offence to publish, whether for gain or not, any article whose effect, taken as a whole, is such, in the view of the court, to tend to "deprave and corrupt" those likely to read, see or hear the matter contained or embodied in it.


In the political context, may I point out to you that since September 11th, a number of rather obviously harmless people have found themselves at the sharp end of government scrutiny:

'Do you have any pro-Taliban stuff in your apartment, any posters, any maps?'

FBI raids Strip Club in Anti Terror Op

'We have clients who have had anti-terrorism orders served on them. To use it as they are using it against protesters at an arms fair seems to us to be blatantly illegal.'

I do not regard these nightmares as likely. I regard them as not impossible, and my point is that I have no desire to discover from experience what would actually happen.
 
 
■
16:51 / 11.11.03
You may be in the States, but it doesn't matter a toss to UK libel laws. The results of posting something, which gets past the moderators best efforts, that someone thinks defames them is that the person distributing it (any ISPs/transports/servers/institutions owning printers used to replicate the material/people who discuss it with friends later) can have their arses sued right off and bye bye Barbelith. Unlikely, but possible.
 
 
■
16:54 / 11.11.03
....and two or more people? Where did that come from? Not true. It might be slightly different in England and Wales, but in Scotland you can defame someone by being nasty to their face in a closed room with no-one else there. The presumption of the court is that the alleged defamer is guilty and must prove otherwise.
 
 
Not Here Still
17:18 / 11.11.03
Just to clarify; I'm debating a wider point here; posting something on here on Barbelith would be covered by libel laws.
It really shouldn't be done, and me discussing points of law with Nick should not be seen as a green card for anyone to post something on here; the board is of course covered by libel. I thought that was already fairly obvious though.

That said, I am sticking by what I said WRT letters; I was taught this when studying libel laws over the best part of a year. I will check up to see if I have gone rusty, and let you know if I find out I'm wrong though I'm pretty certain on this.

You may well be right, however, about Scotland, and thank you for pointing out the differences between English and Welsh law and Scots law. The burden of proof is reversed in English and Welsh legal cases involving libel too (ie you are, as cube suggests, guilty until proven innocent.) Though if that is true about Scottish law (the closed room, face to face thing) then I can't see how that law is workable.

Anyway, this is complete threadrot and to discuss the thread's topic any further also seems unwise, so I am withdrawing from this thread as of now.
 
 
Bill Posters
10:55 / 12.11.03
Nick, just a note re: the last link in your post above, the High Court recently ruled that use of the Terrorism laws against anti-arms fair demonstrators such as myself was entirely reasonable. I believe that ruling may be challenged in Strasbourg, time will tell.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
13:19 / 12.11.03
So I gather, you mask-wearing destroyer of democracy. You know, it's people like you who, er, carry placards which upset visiting assholes!
 
  

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