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Do you feel a Draft?

19:19 / 05.11.03

Hints of the draft coming back?

A call from the U.S. Defence Department for volunteers to sit on local draft boards has sparked debate here about whether a nationwide military draft could ultimately be needed to complete Washington's Iraq mission.

A number of analysts said yesterday that while any public suggestion of a draft would be politically suicidal for U.S. President George W. Bush in an election year, he could find himself with few other options if he is returned for a second term and the fighting in Iraq is still raging.

The draft was abolished here three decades ago as the Vietnam War wound down, and the defence department notice about draft boards is on an obscure link on its Web site.

But as debate swirls about the capabilities of the beleaguered U.S. military, the Pentagon is calling for volunteers to "Serve Your Community and the Nation." It says the Selective Service System "wants to hear from men and women in the community who might be willing to serve as members of a local draft board."

If conscription becomes necessary, it says, 2,000 local and appeal boards would need volunteers. The boards would decide who would go to war and who could defer their service in the event of a national call-up to boost the currently all-volunteer military.

"This is significant," said Ned Lebow, a presidential scholar at Dartmouth College in New Hampshire and former professor of strategy at the National War College in Washington. "What the department of defence is doing is creating the infrastructure to make the draft a viable option should the administration wish to go this route."

Pentagon officials did not return calls seeking comment yesterday.

"I don't think a presidential candidate would seriously propose a draft," said Charles Pena, a senior analyst with the Washington-based Cato Institute. "But an incumbent, safely in for a second term — that might be a different story. When you crunch the numbers, you understand why you hear talk about a draft. You only have to look at troop levels to realize we don't have the numbers to do the job in Iraq properly."

...probably nothing, but what a scary and horrible thought...

A

23:30 / 05.11.03

On the positive side, the draft being reinstated is the sort of thing that would be so very unpopular it could concievably actually lead to revolution (if you think that's a good idea).

Foust is SO authentic

00:50 / 06.11.03

Haha. When I saw the thread title, I felt a brief surge of panic. Then I thought, "Hey, I'm Canadian! Who cares?"

01:57 / 06.11.03

Except as a Canadian, you would start getting more Americans moving into your neighborhood.

12:10 / 06.11.03

Bah. We were mostly colonized by Americans anyways... and it would be the politically left ones, I assume, so no real trouble there...

12:32 / 06.11.03

if they thing it's not their own fault for voting these muppets in and consuming far too much of the world's resources they'll have another wank coming, doubtless

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

14:00 / 06.11.03

I think there's a fine line on this one- it COULD (from Georgieboy's POV) be the thing that swings the situation in Iraq... or it could be the thing that fucks him over totally. (Obviously, the latter seems both more likely and preferable.)

Although I do find it funny that the reason this is even being considered is because people are leaving the army in swathes... recruitment's WAY down... every day more US troops are dying in a war that was apparently over a long time ago... surely that should tell him SOMETHING?

Nah. Maybe not.

16:02 / 06.11.03

I doubt this will happen. Just today it was announced that they're calling up 40,000 National guard troops and 20,000 marines to rotate into place in Iraq so that troops who have been there a while can finally get some R&R (many having been there since before the March invasion). It was also announced that plans are to eventually reduce the troop presence in Iraq by early next year, despite Sen. McCain's insistence that we do need to send more troops to Iraq.

So, no, I don't see a draft taking place. We don't need one. What would be the point? Its not cost-effective...a draft would eat up a huge amount of money to properly implement and maintain, considering we haven't had one in the US since, what? 1973? We do still have selective service, however. But from what I've heard, they're VERY picky. (Unless we got into a war with say, North Korea and/or China. That would change things pretty damn fast.)

22:05 / 08.11.03

if they thing it's not their own fault for voting these muppets in and consuming far too much of the world's resources they'll have another wank coming, doubtless

Excuse me?!? Since when were these "muppets" elected? Maybe you didn't hear, but Dubya stole the election, buddy. And because he did that, random twenty year old kids deserve to die in the desert? Despicable. And hey, I'm with you on the too much consumption point, but that has fuck all to do with the draft.

Once upon a time, the US got by without a draft by offering good incentives to join up, including good pay and benefits, like insurance and pensions, and in general a promise that Uncle Sam would have your back. From the late 80s on, however, these benefits have been whittled away, to the point that injured soldiers have to pay for their meals! Soldiers have taken a cut in hazardous duty pay, veteran benefits have been cut, and so on. So it's no surprise that enlistment is down, and very few are reenlisting.

So, if Bush does get elected, and he wants to continue his war on countries with oil that don't toe the line excuse me war on terror, the draft will be neccessary. There are no more reserves.

I doubt setting up draft boards and such would cost much by gov't standards, but then again the whole scheme could be outsourced to Halliburton or something. Reinstating the draft would be extremely costly politically, though, and would likely cost the president his job. If the draft comes back, it won't happen until after Bush wins the next election, god forbid. And, with any luck, it would lead to rioting in the streets. We'll see...

17:01 / 09.11.03

Unless they decided to empty the prisons and start an American Foreign Legion...

18:15 / 10.11.03

Compulsive military action would be a good thing, because if the people who start war's children might be in the line of fire, then they would think twice about it. Rich kids don't usually join up.

01:09 / 11.11.03

Rich kids don't get drafted either. They join the Texas Air National Guard.

06:09 / 11.11.03

Ok, don't start panicking yet. I read this story last week in the Guardian (Wednesday?). Although the timing is suspicious, the given reason is attrition in the draft board pool. The article implies that the draft may have been abolished in 1973 but draft boards have not been.

Registration for the draft may have stopped in 1973, but in 1981 it was mandatory again (still?). I had to register. (By the way, the "ice cream draft notice" urban legend is true!)

Anyway, the years seriously eroded the number of draft board volunteers, which stood at 80,000 in 1973.

There's no reason to believe the draft would be any fairer now than it was then, and they wouldn't even have to buy fixed draft lottery machines from Diebold to ensure the "right" people went. The draft would be political poison even after GW "Airboy" Bush Dick "5 Deferments" Cheney got in. It would mean riots and no chance of further Republican presidents for awhile, even with fixed elections.

09:03 / 11.11.03

Once upon a time, the US got by without a draft by offering good incentives to join up, including good pay and benefits, like insurance and pensions, and in general a promise that Uncle Sam would have your back.

Depends on how much "once upon a time" you want to play. According to Hollywood history, it used to be that the firemen of New York would burn the city down because of the draft. Gangs of New York-style. I guess after that, any administration would start offering some benefits to go with the draft. Which increases the cost of the war, which decreases the likelihood of the war.

Looks like some New Yorkers have some rioting to do...

19:30 / 11.11.03

If the draft boards have always been around, then there is no story really.. The original story made it sound like they were being brought back from the dead for the possibility of the draft...

12:48 / 12.11.03

Supposedly getting into Canada this time around would be much more difficult. But hey, who wants to go to Canada and freeze for their principles when they could cross the wide-open Mexican border and spend their draft-dodging days drinking tequila with senoritas. I think the choice is pretty clear.

J Mellott

15:32 / 12.11.03

I may have to eat my words regarding my last post...Part of the problem facing the military at present is that a substantial number of troops (both regular Army and National Guard/Reserves) plan on NOT re-enlisting, due in no small part to the shoddy treatment they've received (cutting of veteran's benefits, nickel-and-diming troops over medical treatment, etc.)

That may change things a bit, especially if we wind up having a long-term commitment to deployment in the Mideast region, despite noises emanating from Washington about possible "troop reductions". There's always a chance of another "front" in the Forever War being opened, after all.

18:35 / 12.11.03

If anyone's interested, the original page that was taken down is mirrored on the excellent Memory Hole.

20:11 / 12.11.03

Er, by once upon a time I meant between 1973 and the mid-to-late eighties. Sorry, I shoulda said so. Cuz I kinda doubt that Civil War era soldiers got many benefits.

I think the Foreign Legion idea is a keeper, especially if the US gov't plans to be in the mideast for awhile. And it does. Simply offer a new identity, SSN, and US citizenship after fifteen years in the roughest corps around. Let all but death row cons and pedophiles join up out of prison for a pardon. Then send them to Iraq!

The Marines would be pissed about no longer being the toughest, though.

01:15 / 13.11.03

Thats the stupidest idea I've heard all day and I work with a bunch of idiots.

07:34 / 13.11.03

Better than a draft.

Tryphena Absent

09:36 / 13.11.03

I'm sorry, this is a little irrational but I have to rant...

This is the stupidest thing all week- Since when were these "muppets" elected? Maybe you didn't hear, but Dubya stole the election, buddy.

Why? Oh because I heard little popular demand for Bush to get thrown out after these allegations were uttered. Because the citizens of the oh so democratic US didn't stand up and say this is wrong. Because the senate turned from a democratic majority to a republican majority mid term. You might as well have elected him it was so close, if Bush stole the election than why has America been sitting on its arse and watching all of this happen? Despite alleged racial discrimination and a vote for the other guy nothing has been done and everyone's shrugged in acceptance. Do you people listen to the pledge of allegiance? Iraq is hardly the most deplorable thing that Bush has managed to pull off this term, a draft wouldn't be all that difficult. Despite the complete lack of public protest you really think that most of the US would object to a draft? A government that has overturned Roe vs. Wade, sent inexperienced troops to a foreign land to get killed and had about an ounce of opposition from official channels. If they want a draft they'll get one, if there was any severe objection to it I'd eat my own socks.

10:01 / 13.11.03

I'd rather see you eat a nice pair of shoes...

oh by the way

A government that has overturned Roe vs. Wade
The Bush Administration has not overturned Roe Vs Wade - they have made late term abortions illegal and NY Judges are already ruling against the ban

Tryphena Absent

11:05 / 13.11.03

Oh really, I clearly haven't been paying attention. My mistake, sorry everyone!

We're The Great Old Ones Now

12:28 / 13.11.03

Having an old-style Foreign Legion would solve the troops abroad problem all right, it just happens to be insanely imperial and just might upset a few non-US countries. Then there's the small issue of the wisdom of creating (yet another) buffer of supposedly expendable foreign proxies fighting a US war. It hasn't been a terribly successful strategy in the past, what with Al Qaeda and everything.

And then again, there's the likely consequence in terms of US public interest in US actions overseas if the troops fighting them are foreign. I mean, who cares, right?

On the whole, I'd hope the USFL doesn't take off.

13:34 / 13.11.03

Wasn't it the mujahideen fighters that joined the US and its allies in Gulf War 1? and isn't this group more closely associated to the Taliban rather than Al Qaeda?

14:05 / 13.11.03

Soon, we will have a new kind of foreign legion made up of brainwashed Afghanis being secretly trained at Guatanamo Naval Base.

22:02 / 13.11.03

We already had a USFL, it didn't work out.

Anna, maybe you can tell me what I should be doing. As much as I'd like to be throwing rocks at the White House, I still have to go to work six days this week and its hard to find the time to fit everything in. Maybe someone can tell me what people in the UK are doing about Blair and I'll do some of that.

As for the draft, pulling American boys from their families to die in another country pushes entirely different buttons in the American psyche than sending soldiers overseas to kill terrorists. Which is what we're doing now, obviously. The real problem for Bush is that the last generation to be drafted now make up the largest section of registered voters and happen to be the parents of the people that would be drafted this time around. I'm sure hes plenty worried that most of them will remember how swell things turned out last time around and wouldn't dare try to ramp up the draft.

Until after he steals the next election.

19:13 / 14.11.03

Just so you know, the US death toll in Iraq has surpassed the death toll for our first three years in Vietnam.

So while a draft is still a faraway possibility, it's possibly not as distant as we'd like to believe.

We'll know in 12 months, I suppose.

My hunch, though, is that if Dubya's still in charge, the US is far more likely to pick up and leave Iraq to the wolves than to start actually drafting kids again.

10:30 / 16.11.03

I suppose it's worth clarifying that an American Foreign Legion is not a good idea in the sense that not invading a new country every year is a good idea. It's simply a better way for our increasingly imperial government to supply troops for its conquests than a draft. I'm certainly biased, though, since I'm signed up for selective service and 23 years old.... and male...brrr...

However, I'm guessing that Bush plans to pull out of Iraq before the next election, whereupon the pathetic US press will proclaim victory and Sean Hannity will declare that the liberals were all wrong about how badly Iraq would go. Bush wants the Iraqi gov't to be functioning by June, though it'll be a miracle if a viable independent Iraqi led state is formed that quickly.

All conjecture and guessing, though. As grant said, we'll know in 12 months.

16:18 / 16.11.03

Heh. My "foreign legion" remark was meant to be tongue-in-cheek, though there is some truth to it, insofar as the US has built up proxy armies all over the world over the years to fight its battles, as I'm sure some of you know.

Was just reading up on this, actually, and the sheer number of times its happened is a bit frightening to say the least. Groups like the Contras, the Mujahedeen, "Le Armee Clandestine" in Laos during the 60's, Cuban exile groups like "Alpha 66", etc. were simply the better known ones.

02:47 / 17.11.03

Despite the complete lack of public protest

What? There has been more public protest, and outrage, than we have had in decades. Just cuz you don't see it on the telly doesn't mean it isn't happening...

13:05 / 17.11.03

Well, that's a large part of the problem right there. Our culture seems pretty likely to fall into line given careful mediation; the aforementioned "stolen election", the Iraq war part II, etc. (you'll find no shortage of examples on Barbelith, for sure). A draft right now? near impossible. Given the right, uhh, incentive (read a comic/watch the news and pick an image of mass destrucion) and the U.S. could very well suffer through a draft... for a time.

Mister Six, whom all the girls

22:14 / 18.11.03

So, uh, Anna, I take it you're out there protesting George W Bush being in your backyard, yeah?