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Magick for others vs. Magick for yourself

13:25 / 27.10.03

So I was just thinking about love spells again and how wise women and cunning men have performed them for clients throughout history, and it occurred to me that there is a big difference between magick for yourself ("I want to get laid- so mote it be!") and magick for others ("Protect X from harm"), practically, theoretically and ethically.

Magick for others can be more altruistic or more mercenary, depending on the relationship between client and magician. Some forms are traditionally performed for others (e.g. Tarot) some forms are pretty much only for solitary workings (e.g. um, sigils?) but there's an equivalent argument to 'Don't bewitch others' that goes 'Magic shouldn't be used for personal gain'.

What do you lot think? Do you do your own thing or serve the tribe?

Tryphena Absent

13:36 / 27.10.03

Work alone but always serve the tribe. I don't believe in using this kind of thing for your own ends. It seems ridiculous that we should have this thing that belongs to everyone and the world and yet use it only for ourselves or even specifically for our own reason. I pretty much judge occultists/magicians on their approach to the aims of magic(k) and it's a snap judgement and I don't think I've ever been straight off wrong. There's nothing wrong about being mercenary when working for and with others, it's just that it needs to be coupled with something else. I don't think I'm altruistic, I just recognise that this isn't only mine. Sigils, other types of selfish magic(k) probably work best when you don't need them to work because they're not about need, they concern desire.

13:49 / 27.10.03

I tried to lay out my own opinions on this as clearly as I could in the article I wrote for BinaS's forthcoming book. I've got that up on my website at the moment, if you're interested. Here's a relevant extract:

The religions of Vodon, Santeria, and other African Diaspora faiths are frequently misappropriated by western magicians in order to give their practices a suitably glamorous, dark, and dangerous flavour. Leaving aside the ethical considerations of this kind of borrowing, the western magician might do better to learn from the actual working dynamic that underpins these traditions, rather than just co-opting the outward symbolism. In Vodon and similar religions the principle of 'serving the community through serving the Gods' has not been lost. It's alive and functioning in a very real way. The Houngan, Santero or Doc is the living intermediary between the Gods and the wider community - by working magic for that community, he or she is performing a divine function.

When a Houngan or Mambo makes service to the Gods, Spirits, or Ancestors they provide a means by which these Powers can manifest in the world, and in turn are themselves empowered to look after their community through magic, divination, healing, and being able to get things done when worldly methods are ineffective. It's the framework of virtually all shamanic systems the world over yet is conspicuously absent from western magical practice, inclusive of chaos magic. In this context, results magic ceases to be this self-serving, cynical, individualistic pursuit but has a wider purpose and meaning. Neither does there need to be any misplaced guilt over doing sorcery to benefit yourself, as you have a job to do and therefore anything that profits you and allows you to fulfil your role more effectively, will also profit the community you serve.

The full article is at www.molotovia.co.uk . Click on the Dub Shamanics section, and it's the piece called 'what is the cutting edge?'.

18:23 / 27.10.03

I only work magic for me. But me is bigger than you see.

16:58 / 28.10.03

I mostly work mamgickally for myself or loved ones.

However, I have noticed an uncanny ability to give good luck to those who are gambling. I, personally, hate gambling, but from time to time I find myself in a casino. On several occassions I have witnessed a sort of sympathy magick or some well-wishing...it usually works, but I can't get it to work for me, which is fine, since I hate gambling myself. I don't even buy lottery tickets.

I think part of the reason this happens is due to the very shock in me at being in a casino...the lights, noises, smoke-filled rooms and flashiness...One might think I am used to this, but no. I think it induces a state of gnosis in me, probably through some sort of synaesthesic experience. I can't profit with this for myself either...I think I just get too lusty. This is a good point though, regarding sympathetic magick and the like. Maybe it has a better chance to work because it is easily forgotten as it is not on the mage's mind daily.

10:37 / 30.10.03

That's cool, Trix's example especially- the magic only works for others. Does anyone else experience an altruistic bent to their practice?

Spyder Todd 2008

12:40 / 30.10.03

I work for my self and others, sometimes without telling them. For example, I had a friend who was sick, but doesn't think magic works, so I didn't tell them that I did a rather lengthy ritual (24 days) to help them. Now they seem much better.

My problem, really, comes down to when can I help and when am I useless. Precognice gets in the way, because even if I now something is coming, I don't know if I have any control over it coming or not. I can no someone will be in trouble, but that doesn't mean I can keep them out of it.

I guess all we can do is try to what's best for everyone. That's why I would never do a hex or something, it's directly harmful to
someone.

I think we as magicians need to do what is best for who ever we are preforming any spell for. Regardless who it is.

So, if you wanted to skip those three paragraphs, I work for the tribe.

13:30 / 30.10.03

I don't have the confidence to offer services to people as a magician (except reading Tarot) so most stuff I do is personal, but the few things I do are along the same lines as Spyder's example; secret blessings and the like.
The stuff I do for myself I consider just as important as my duty to the community, partially as training- by doing it I get better, until I am competent enough to help others- and partially in terms of integrity. I can hardly call myself a magician and try to help others if I don't practice myself, can I?

I think there's a tendency in traditions based on shamanism to emphasise the role as healer to the community, and in more Western traditions (Thelema, Golden Dawn) to emphasise the self. Modern composite systems devised by people from a variety of sources seem to have a bit of both, more or less consistently depending on the practitioner.

12:30 / 31.10.03

Last night, I just wanted to be sure about this. I wanted to be sure that I wasn't just deluded (well, far more than usual!

). So I was standing behind someone at a game, and I decided to be completely altruistic and send this guy the mojo. Well, his next hit, the very nex one!, he won the jackpot! I was quite proud of myself. It was far too synchronious (word?) to not be significant. It was immediate!

I didn't say a thing to the guy, I just smiled to myself. Until, of course, I saw him stuff more cash into the damn machine!

*sigh*

I hate gambling......I tried to say something politely to him about quitting while he was ahead, he basically told me to fuck off. Oh well, at least I know I can send my mojo. I can't control the stupidity afterward. Yeesh! Ya try and help someone out and they pee all over it!

12:57 / 31.10.03

To generalise from Trix's experience (btw cool! send me some luck!) how much are you responsible for others? The shaman is a respected member of the tribe, a shepherd, which modern magicians often aren't. If you perform magic for others do you feel responsible for the outcome? Or is it just a fire-and-forget thing?